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Avalanche risks

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
easiski wrote:
Here we have huge banners up at the bottom of most of the lifts with the rules of skiing on them - do people look? do they heck - what more can the lift company do?


Make everyone pass a test before they're allowed to purchase a lift pass wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
easiski wrote:


My suggestion? Stop the videos in pubs!!! They give a completely false impression to the skiing public - there's one where the guy snowboards in front of an avalanche he sets off - all the disclaimers in the world at the end of the film won't undo the impression it gives.


I can't agree more! But sadly doubt it will happen. All we can do is try to educate folk. I believe it will eventually come to the point that skiing out of bounds will be banned unless the person(s) involved can show a certificate stating that they have attended and passed a recognized Avalanche Awareness course. Or that they are with an acredited guide.

Two of my good friends here were involved in the Imax 'Extreme' movie, one as a producer, one as safety officer. The 15 minutes Alaskan extreme skiing sequences took nearly 5 weeks to film, waiting for safe conditions.....

We have had monster snow in Whistler with high winds and rising temperatures for the last 3 days (mon/tues/wed). Today,Thursday is a far better weather day, yet I cancelled a backcountry tour that would have paid well and am sitting at home...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm off to Lech for a week tomorrow. I've never skied in Austria. A friend yesterday mentioned he has always avoided Austria as it seems to have more avalanches than anywhere else. Is this right and if so, why? (or is that too big a question?) Apart from people going off piste in dangerous conditions, do resorts vary in their responsibility towards preventing avalanches?
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More press articles on the risks

Alps see climb in avalanche fatalities

A pretty good piece by USA Today
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
From the USA Today article:

Quote:
A large avalanche nearly hit the village of Oberried in Switzerland on Thursday.

Any details on this? The photo looks pretty hairy.
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xyzpaul, just seen your post - there's some mention of this in the post I just added in Snow Reports.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
davidof wrote:
A pretty good piece by USA Today

Well there's always a first time Wink Laughing


(And the quality of the piece is of course in no way related to the number of times you are quoted? Wink )
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:

A friend yesterday mentioned he has always avoided Austria as it seems to have more avalanches than anywhere else. Is this right and if so, why?


Shocked

Beverley, ignore everything your friend tells you about skiing!!

Lech certainly gets a lot of snow, which is a good thing, and has lots of very good off-piste terrain, which is another good thing, so therefore may be expected to have more avalanche deaths than some resorts. But I don't think there are any resorts which are "better" than others at dealing with avalanche risk, unless you count the US, where it is completely different situation as the whole resort is avalanche patrolled. In Europe AFAIK all resorts use the 1-5 scale, and issue general warnings about skiing off-piste when the risk increases - obviously the off-piste risk is never zero! If you hear of people killed by avalanches ON piste, then you may be able to conclude that the resort's safety systems are inadequate, but there are very few incidents like this. If you always ski on-piste you can basically forget about avalanche risk.
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GrahamN wrote:

(And the quality of the piece is of course in no way related to the number of times you are quoted? ;) )


Well it has something to do with a journalist who spoke to a lot of people such as Fréd Jarry from the ANENA and Cécile Coléou and listened to what they said. USA Today is normally Daily Express level journalism so I was pleasantly surprised. Obviously there is a certain readership of USA today and the article pitches to that level.

I don't normally bother to post pieces where I am quoted or misquoted but I thought this was quite good, but I accept your comment.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
GrahamN, in David's defence I have seen him quoted in lots of places, including on the Beeb site very recently, but I don't recall him posting those links Wink
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Article in yesterday's Observer
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
davidof, David , do you have any facts on tha Auron incident on Friday. I can't find anything on your site?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
eEvans wrote:
davidof, David , do you have any facts on tha Auron incident on Friday. I can't find anything on your site?


http://pistehors.com/comments/583_0_1_0_C/

I'm sure there was more information in Nice Matin though.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Short piece in Nice Rendez-Vous
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
davidof, PG, Thanks very much both. There had been contradictory information in the local press about where , why and how. Nice Matin was a bit vague in the edition we read anyway ..

Particularly sad as it appears as a life was lost and serious injuries to those 'practising' protecting plonkers like me.. we went to Isola on the weekend and I found it a little (????) unnerving watching what I assume was a small avalanche.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
There is another choice. I have just got back from the US where I had 120 inches in 11 days and didn't miss a day of skiing, almost none of which was on groomers and none of which was out of bounds. Not everything was open every day (and seeing an explosive triggered triple fracture slide which resulted in debris towers the height of freight trains across flats this was no bad thing ) but never did I consider that I was skiing a dangerous slope.

I know there are problems with nature reserves etc but any European resorts that lead with a "controlled inbounds" approach surely give themselves a large marketing advantage for the "soft piste" public's euro . How is Tignes SPOT area working out? I suspect sheer area size prevents a more extensive approach.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
US in bounds type skiing in some areas of European resorts would be fantastic, but I suspect as you suggest FB, that the sheer size of the European ski areas prevent this??
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
gregh, the guy in charge of piste security at Les Arcs was in favour of 'secured zones' to start with, similar to the system at Tignes, but pointed out that he wasn't speaking for his bosses at the CDA.
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fatbob,

It is true that ski areas in North America are far smaller than those of Europe, and thus are more practical to control. For example Whistler, where I am, is the largest resort by far in N America, yet is small by European standards.

The Avalanche control work here 'in bounds' is extensive, but it is also the fact that within a few hours of the lifts opening after a new snow fall literally every inch of the inbounds is skied and thus 'ski stabilized’ that makes the avalanche risk inbounds recede.

The sheer size of many European ski resorts, and the off piste areas between adjacent ski areas mean that this sort of two pronged stabilization approach will never be practical in Europe, although most (all?) resorts I have experienced there would appear to have significant avalanche control procedures in place in their patrolled areas.

I actually wonder if we really want a situation where skiing is ‘sanitized for your own good’? By which I mean that as humans we grow as a result of both our experiences and education. I have been skiing off piste since the early 1960s and have been fortunate to hunt out powder in many countries and places. I have been involved in only 2 avalanche incidents (Tignes 1978 and Davos 1992), both were minor, the first a result of my appalling ignorance, and the by the time of the second I was far better educated but still ‘got it wrong’.

Along the way I have participated in many, many days of avalanche courses including, in the days that I was based in Davos traveling to Canada to attend Canadian Avalanche Association Levels 1 and 2 courses, and yes, I am in my old age a far more cautious skier than I was. But based on education and experience there are days when I deem the conditions right for serious steep and deep, and go for it.

With the advent of fat skis and snow boards I believe that all sections of the industry have an obligation to educate the public. Folk with less and less experience are being given tools that allow them to venture off piste in weeks or months rather than the years it took to acquire the skiing skills of, say 20 or 30 year ago. Without the learning curve of time, they need to be taught!

Here in Canada the Canadian Avalanche Association now has a series of Recreational Avalanche courses of 16 and 30 hour duration as well as their Level 1 and 2 professional courses. I would be very interested to hear how other countries are handling this education aspect, especially in view of the many languages spoken in Europe.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Edit: I wrote the bit below in response to the question on hoarfrost at the bottom of page 1, not having seen there was a page 2. Duh!

There are a great many types of conditions which can cause avalanches - perhaps too many to usefully be learned by most people, but important to learn if you ski off piste without a guide.
Hoar frost forms on the surface in sheltered lee slopes and hollows etc (those huge, flat crystals you sometimes see on the surface) and if covered by another snowfall can be lethal. However depth hoar, if I am remembering correctly, can also be caused inside the snow by extreme cold for a long period. If the ground below is warmer than air temperature then water vapour rising through the snow layers condenses as crystals inside the snow on encountering the greater cold of the upper snow.
Another example:
A thick, firm crust, is caused by sun and freezing on a south facing slope. Further surface heating and freezing makes large crystals. When the sun warms and melts the bonds between these they are briefly lovely to ski and called "spring snow". However later in the afternoon (and most especially if an overcast sky the night before has kept in the heat of the day, preventing proper re-freezing overnight) the skier may break through the crust and cause a wet snow avalanche. In other words this is a slab avalanche which is not caused by wind slab (the chief cause of fatal avalanches) but by heating a sun slab.
Alternatively if there is no crust the sun can melt the snow, the water percolating down to a harder layer, where it forms a nice, lubricated weak layer for the wet snow above to slide.

However the main danger to learn about, as has been frequently said on this site, is windslab.
This is found on lee slopes where wind-blown snow tends to settle. This is usually North and North-East facing slopes in the alps (just where you find the best snow) but watch out for local wind funneling effects of the mountains. The snow has had the branches of the snow-crystals broken off by the violence of the wind so it packs differently (more densely) from other snow and does not adhere to other snow in the normal way forming a crust which moves differently over time, often forming voids between it and other layers. When you ski on it on a gentler slope you may feel (and hear) the wind slab break and settle under you with a sort of "woomp"- a very dangerous sign. (On a steeper slope the crust will break with a loud "crack" and you'll probably be in an avalanche).

In general you are safer skiing down ridges and avoiding gulleys and bowls.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 14-03-06 14:35; edited 1 time in total
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Hopefully, the author (a British mountain guide) won't mind me posting a link here but here is a brief but very informative article about types of avalanches and their causes:

http://www.eagleskiclub.org.uk/article3.htm
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Yes, a good article, but within his categories there may be several different combinations of conditions (histories of a slope) which may give rise to that type of avalanche. A guide will know the likely history and in a simpler, much more generalised way it can help us too.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Well , I was in Tignes last week and saw and heard about a lot of stupid behaviour. People wearing transncievers and carrying ave packs of probes and shovels when the risk was basically 4 or 5 most of the week. There was plenty of "off piste" to be had skiing "on piste". I agree with colinmcc, I don't want to see my skiing sanitized , and I agree the problem is its probably just too easy to ski off piste now ( I guess especially on a board) - how you get people who can cover the mountain after 3(?) weeks of learning to invest in the time needed to learn mountain skills is a major question for the ski industry/areas.
Quotes heard last week ? "great skiing in that gully!" from a group of brit boarders - probably didn't have a clue what they were doing. People skiing the off piste in the Marmottes area the same day someone died there, when the piste either side offered comparable enjoyment without the ( obvious to me ) risks of a large slide possibility. The whole area last week was a bad combination of wet powder, slab and loose powder on various hard layers , yet the number of people skiing in obvious ignorance was amazing - I saw one group skiing a route below the Marais chair I had avoided cos it was slabby. Watching small blocks shed below them ! Sat on a chair on thursday watching spontanious slides happen from the chair listening to some french boarders discussing where they were going to skii off piste( while not even noticing the slides). People skiing the sache couloirs whilst all I ever saw were the pisteurs trying to block/blow that area.There are a lot of people out there that really , really do not have any idea what they are doing
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