 Poster: A snowHead
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The much dreaded and derided Eurotest is coming under fire.
It was proposed at an ISIA conference two years ago that the Eurotest should be investigated to determine if it should form part of the minimum standards required for the new ISIA Card. This new card will be a higher level than the current stamp and somewhat analogous to a BASI ISIA and ISTD levels. ISIA reviewed and reported their findings to members in May 08 and recommended REJECTING the Eurotest as the basis for the Card. This motion was approved and it was recommended that a similar but fairer race test be introduced to determine a minimum standard for the ISIA Card. This technique test is outlined here http://www.isiaski.org/download/rules/Minimumstandard_en.pdf and was tested in Davos in Nov 08
The appears to a GS test to FIS regulations with the reference skiers having between 45-55 FIS points. The Pass time is +12.5% for males against the reference skier but the crucial difference is that the reference skiers are not Calibrated back to 0 FIS points like the eurotest nor will have individual coefficients. Also important is that an average of the both runs of both reference skiers times will be used to set the base time unlike the Eurotest. Apparently the review showed that applying a coefficient against reference skiers and only using the fastest opening times dramatically skewed the pass results and made them unreliable.
It would be interesting to see what FIS points 55 +12.5% equates to... anyone fancy a go at working that out.
As a temporary measure Snow sports instructors with the highest national training from the following countries already meet the ISIA minimum standard for the ISIA card:Argentina, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, Great Britain, Italy, Holland, Spain, Switzerland.
Of note is that Australia, Canada and the USA's highest ratings do not currently qualify I think mainly due to a lack of mountain security training
It will be interesting to see if the Eurogroup adopt this new test or stick with the eurotest. My guess is that BASI will stay with eurotest as it will be higher than the new minimum standard but who knows?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret,
Another level of qualification to confuse 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, 12.5% slower than the winner works out at 110 race points, given an F-factor of 880. You can assume the penalty would be 55 (points of the openers) giving a combined FIS Point of 165.
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Assuming F-value for GS still 880 and their forerunners being at 50 FIS GS points, 12.5% would come in at about 166 FIS GS points (I think - where's Sideshow_Bob when you need him?), so not a lot short of Eurotest at 158.
And does this mean that the ISIA red/black thing was just an unfounded rumour?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There he is! 
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stewart woodward, This wont be a new level, but rather a new minimum standard that each member nations training body must meet as a minimum standard should they desire to qualify their programmes as eligible for the stamp and the new higher level Card. BASI along with the other nations listed above already do that with a BASI ISIA instrutor qualifing to receive the Stamp and ISTD will now get the Card.
Telling though is that the canadian, USA and Aussi systems dont and they will need to add a race test and mountain security training to get the Card status if they wish their programmes to be ISIA recognised, of course they dont have to do this. The debate was should the race be the current eurotest and the answer was no and a new minimum test criteria has been developed. My guess would be that the Eurogroup will carry on with the Eurotest and other nations will implement this new test but time will tell. The ISIA test sound to me to be nearly as stringent but much more consistent. See here for the details on the ISIA's committe review of the eurotest http://www.isiaski.org/download/dv_jesolo_en.pdf
The consequences of this are interesting, all member countries have voted in favour of allowing ISIA Stamp holders to work permanently at other member nations ski schools. How this will transpire in france, italy, etc. will be interesting....
Sideshow_Bob, slikedges, thanks for working that out, how do you work out the eurotest is 158 i always heard it was 110-140.
The Stamp/Card is analogous to the red/black reference that was used when they were discussing the Pyramid Scheme of three levels the first being an amatuer level.
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skimottaret, haven't they already run some of the ISIA races, but not been well attended due to most choosing to do the Eurotest? And the Eurogroup don't think much of the test. Sure I heard something along those lines.
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beanie1, dont know, i think the first one was a pilot to test the concept. I cant see the Eurogroup changing over unless they are forced to but i could see other countries now implementing the ISIA test in preference to the Eurotest. If it gains acceptance within ISIA perhaps they will all agree to harmonise to a single race test but who knows....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, I think you're right, but I think it'll end up being the Eurotest as the Eurogroup have so much power.
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| Quote: |
| how do you work out the eurotest is 158 i always heard it was 110-140 |
BASI reckon it's 0 FIS points plus 18% for men, which is 0.18 * 880 = 158. I've seen differing percentages for how far behind you can be quoted online though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sideshow_Bob, merci 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Was there any talk of age-related handicaps/pro-rating? The biggest barrier to entry seems to be that the Eurotest is all but impossible to pass once you reach a certain age and it's surely keeping out potentially good people
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eng_ch, good point but not in the minutes that i read. I did hear in the states they are age handicapping the NASTAR races that form part of the PSIA top cert in some of the regions there.
i would certainly vote for an age handicap  i did hear that someone in their 60's passed so not impossible...
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret,
The Aussie system does have a race component already but APSI II is ISIA and the race is at APSI III level (also it is not Eurotest type - but that is easy to change)
AFAIK ONLY one division of PSIA race(Rocky Mountain) and that is Nastar GOLD level..... ALL Nastar is handicapped for age and sex - that is how Nastar works!!!
As a clue - I got Nastar Gold the second time I ever raced....(Not that hard)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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eng_ch, skimottaret, I didn't see anything about that either, but as you say, it would be helpful. I suppose, that just like university, they assume the vast majority of applicants to be young. I don't know about the person in their 60's, but John Nelson here was 46 when he passed, and he still hasn't done his BASI ISTD tech - the only thing left for him. All interesting stuff though, and the idea of not takingthe fastest opener as the base is good - it does seem as though the 'new' test would be a bit fairer across the board, if not a great deal easier.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| The consequences of this are interesting, all member countries have voted in favour of allowing ISIA Stamp holders to work permanently at other member nations ski schools. |
Have the ESF (French Government) commented yet on this?
Any guesses what they'll say?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| easiski wrote: |
| I suppose, that just like university, they assume the vast majority of applicants to be young. |
That sounds like a fair supposition, and in many ways I think regarding qualification in the same way as a degree or any other professional training (since it certainly requires the same level of commitment) is the right attitude. However, if even WC racers get to an age where they can physically no longer compete with the youngsters, doesn't a single Eurotest pass rating without an age-handicap actually effectively set the bar proportionately higher for older entrants? Which is a shame, because I think people with some life experience can bring so much more to the entire teaching/learning experience and potentially excluding them seems a real waste from which nobody benefits
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, I have heard from friends who work down south that the Aussi's are very desirous to get the Stamp and Card for their members and are actively working to incorporate into their training the newer requirements.
Wayne, The response from the Austrian's and French a few years ago when the pyramid scheme was formulated was to formalise the Eurogroup into a company called FEMPS as a bully boy tactic threatening to withdraw from ISIA completely. BASI has influence but few votes so is more a peacemaker and lobbyist within the eurogroup and ISIA. Also BASI is run by ISTD's who also want to protect their livelihoods in Europe so dont expect any changes soon...
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skimottaret, APSI have always had the stamp .... they have made a point of meeting ISIA requirements including second discipline... that is why we had so many Disabled Trained guys - that was their second discipline - and as I said it has always been at APSI II level ... they will certainly be trying hard to integrate any new requirements as many of their instructors teach second seasons and many are second qualified( ie 2 of mine had staatliche, 1 was CSCF 3 and PSIA 4)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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little tiger, Canada has decided the Stamp/Card is not needed for their members but AFAIUI australia is working hard to implement the requirements to get the Card for their top cert people, I may be wrong about the Stamp and LII's could still be eligible for that.
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skir67, cool you know anyone who did it?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| little tiger, Canada has decided the Stamp/Card is not needed for their members but AFAIUI australia is working hard to implement the requirements to get the Card for their top cert people, I may be wrong about the Stamp and LII's could still be eligible for that. |
that suggests that even CSIA Level 4s might not be able to work anywhere they want .... certainly not in Europe, people should be made aware of this before they part with loads of cash for those expensive gap courses. Aussies also export ski teachers, like the UK, so will obviously be more interested in keeping the stamp/card
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't understand the reasoning behind Canada's decision at all, as I understand it all they need to do is introduce an off piste safety course... which in my view all instructors should be doing anyway, whether it's "required" or not!
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skimottaret, no, I was just doing some research on what it is and what it might mean (if anything) and stumbled across the link, but it is obviously now happening and is not just an idea! It will be interesting to see what develops between ISIA and the Euro cartel. However I think ISIA have they're work cut out to get rid of the speedtest and replace it with their test. The french and the austrians in particular had a good 'pop' at ISIA at the congress in Jesolo when ISIA said they didn't feel the speedtest was a fair test.
The austrians even went as far as buying more ISIA licences to try to get more votes Interesting being as they had a motion they were trying to get passed which was basically anti-ISIA.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skir67, One potential good thing would be that now they are running the ISIA test it may force them to modify the Eurotest to make it more consistent, BASI apparently is sending along representatives to check into the tests and come up with some recommendations of their own. One rumour I heard was that BASI may reccomend that if the Eurotest is to be modified that it should also be age handicapped to avoid any discrimination problems down the road. However one person i know, in the know, hadnt heard anything about that so like any of this stuff it all academic until they announce the rules....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, I agree that age handicapping would be a good idea, after all there are a lot of older teachers who could have a lot to offer to the paying customer. Consistency within the test makes sense too, otherwise its pot luck! Or I suppose you could just go to every test, every season until you passed it......cost lots of ££££££££££ though 
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skir67, I am under no illusion of ever passing but if they ease it a bit and age handicap it, it may be worth doing some training and having a crack at it... Most of the young guys seem to take at least a couple goes at it before even getting close which is a lot of time and money
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You know it makes sense.
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What ever the guys at ISIA decide, they still have to deal with the French.
I passed the test in December at Alp d'heuz, it is tough and it does cost a great deal of time and money.
Their are still heaps of people getting through even though its so tough, so I guess there's no need to change it.
I have also heard about an age related handicap being discussed this winter, we'll have to wait and see I guess.
Bottom line is its tough and a complete mission but, that just makes if feel all the better when you do get it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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skierchris, well done, definitely an achievement worth having!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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did anyone clock that in the latest BASI news the scottish speed test was going to be run both as a EURO and ISIA test and a result in either would count for ISTD....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, not read the whole thing yet, will take a look.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 4-07-10 18:24; edited 1 time in total
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skimottaret, I noticed that. Have you seen the results - some have come through via email ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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david@mediacopy, no i was just reading the newsletter and thought it interesting that it was just quietly mentioned. not sure if any ISIA test will count or just the scottish one... my guess is that BASI are keeping somewhat quiet so as not to upset the current ISTD's...
GS training starts this autumn for me 
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skimottaret, good on you. I quite fancy a bit myself.
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david@mediacopy, we are getting training group together if you fancy a week or two. probably be end oct or nov in tignes.
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If anyone is interested, we are running training in Tignes through November.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Let me know how it shapes up. It's too early to say what I'll be doing but certainly interested.
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skimottaret, The more I read the current BASI news the more interesting it becomes. I've come across a couple of things that have caused me to stop and think 'Really ? that's cool' 
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