I'd like to think of myself as a pretty competent rider (10 plus weeks) and happy to carve my way down most red and black runs.
But recently thought I'd try an hour's private lesson in Austria. First instructor decided I was too good for him to teach, or at least he couldn't ride switch at the level required (we rode opposite). So he arranged for head of ski school, who was level 4 snowboard, to take me out instead.
Previously I've aimed to keep my shoulders and hips in a direct line with the board at all times which has served me well. But this instructor was talking about the Minus Position (with body in line with board) and Plus Position (shoulders 90 degrees to board - looks like a plus from bird's eye view). He had me in minus position for toe edge and plus on heel edge turns.
He helped with other things too and my carving improved significantly during the hour. But now I'm wondering if this Plus/Minus thing is correct, just for specific situations, or maybe an out of date technique? After all he may have taken his snowboard level 4 twenty years ago!
Any thoughts?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I've always ridden 'open' in my shoulders. If it works, don't knock it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Not anything which I've been taught, nor Mr G (who is a considerably better and more experienced piste rider than me); but neither of us are L4 instructors either.
I wonder if it was some kind of drill or a way of getting you to shift your weight or body in particular ways on the different turns? Depends on what stance you use, but if you are not pure duck then it might be that he's saying to turn the upper body more into the toe edge turn (put it parallel to the board if it starts off not being so) and into the heel turn (turn body across board). Sitting here on the sofa that makes some sense to me... I ride tight duck stance, though, so as a technique, + and - would not accord with how I make turns.
My understanding is that one does not in general want to keep the upper body perfectly still and in line (for general piste riding), and recall Mr G being taught the good old 'point where you want to go' technique when he was learning. Has worked for me too, though I prefer to think about hips moving the upper body (might be a skier thing?). But as I progress I find that there are different body and weight (bum?) positions and techniques according to terrain, types of turns, etc etc etc, and what stance you use.
Obviously it seems to have helped you, so something good going on there to ponder and play with.
Thanks guys. Yes I wonder if on heel edge turns I was actually rotating the "wrong" way (back up the hill) without realising it, and he was trying to get me to be straighter by over emphasising a rotation in the opposite direction.
As you say, if its working, then go with it!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Is something I've been told about. Waaay back in the day of aggressive +/+ binding stances.
check out funcarve.com - it is a Russian website - some videos in English - it explains + and - and other stuff - including changing the buckles on toe and ankle straps from left to right binding - I always wondered why they are that way round
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Being chest on to the front of the board is pretty old school (and probably old ski school) or eurocarven. Can see it would work as a mental aid to get strong initiation on heelside turns. I prefer the pick up, move and put down bricks with your lead hand as a mental initiation
After all it is free
After all it is free
plus position is to finish the turn on heel edge.
If you dont finish your heel edge turn, then you are skidding (back foot) out of the heel & into your toe side turn.
Toe edge is generally easier to finish.
tried explaining this (quite difficult to explain) in another thread, but got shot down by the keyboard warriors.
While you are focusing on your hips/shoulder position, you need to think what that position is doing to both your knee positions.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Mr.Egg, please elaborate on the knee position bit. Being from a skiing background I probably don't do the knee bits right on a board (and it always seems to hurt more on a board, too).
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I'm a keen piste carver and have been riding 27/-9 for the past couple of years but this year I'm struggling with a stressed rear knee. I've just concluded that I'm naturally wanting to rotate to this "plus position" on heelside turns and this is forcing my rear knee in towards my front knee, hence the strain. I've done two things today; 1) reduced forward lean on rear highback and 2) gone to +3 on rear binding.
I think that will work out ok but was very interested to read what you were taught as it confirms my style.
I originally learnt +/+ (8 years ago) but then went to a sort of forward duck to better handle off piste and uneven terrain. However, I spend 95% of my time on piste and just try to flow continuous turns. I made an effort to stay (shoulders) aligned with the board today but it just felt awkward, even when straightlining.
I'm 60 now so I don't want to unnecessarily stress a knee so will continue with the Plus position heelside and not feel like I'm doing it wrong.
#kerb thanks for paying for my lesson mate!
PS. Just seen this great instructional carving video posted on snowboardingforum , it's Japanese which is great as I enjoy their style of carving most of all - and he is definitely "Plus" doing advanced heelside carves: http://youtube.com/v/CP1Epu4-Ivg&feature=youtu.be
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Grizzler wrote:
@Mr.Egg, please elaborate on the knee position bit. Being from a skiing background I probably don't do the knee bits right on a board (and it always seems to hurt more on a board, too).
Its quite difficult to put down on paper to explain.
Bellow is over accentuating - but gives an idea of bringing the whole body into your thought process.
Lots of people concentrate on their knees & for example may look down or twist to look behind them, etc. not realising the affect the upper body movement has on other parts of the body & the board.
They are not keeping the upper & lower body aligned. Hence you see people whos legging are going one direction & body twisting another.
Stand in front of a tall mirror knees slightly bent.
Now rotate left or right only using your knees.
Stop when you feel a bit of discomfort.
Look at the positions of your knees & how little they have moved.
Now repeat but turn using your hips, let your knees move with your hips. Stop when you feel discomfort.
You should notice your knees have moved a lot more than before.
Now do it again a 3rd time, but move from the shoulders first & let your hips & knees move with them.
You should notice you are turning a lot more.
finally, move all your body using all 3 elements of using your shoulders, hips & knees.
The idea here is to learn how your body moves.
If I asked you to shovel a pile of dirt from one side to the other, you dont think what your knees are doing, because you have something in your hands & you will use your upper body to do the task.
But you are using your knees. Your turning into the pile with the shovel to pick up & then popping out to dump the pile. your knees are working with your hips & shoulders without realising it.
Think about driving a car.
Its not a case of just putting it in gear & driving off. You have all the other elements that you no longer think about - like checking your mirrors, blindspot, etc. Think back to those elements when you was learning & how it was drilled into by the instructor. These are the things you do without thinking about it.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
We learnt in 1998 with the shoulders across and then straight for heel and toe on +/+ setups.
Sine then we have done > 500 days, and evolved with the times ( as best we can : ) )
Nowadays in a freestyle stance +/-, (strong) forward rotation of the shoulders has a couple of undesirable side affects.
The first is that when it's translated thru the hips, it forces the back knee inwards, and ideally you want both knees pointing outwards, secondly it twists front hip, and the reason that this is undesirable is that blocks the front leg from flexing, so and bumps do not get absorbed. (Unless you have amazing separation and flexibility, which I don't).
I had a freestyle lesson on Saturday and the instructor had us examining the bio-mechanics of our hips, shoulders and head when doing 180s & 360s, he was using the head rotation and position as a way of controlling the rotation rather than hips or shoulders, this seemed to work pretty well ( though my neck aches today - but then I am 50, and most of my body aches these days)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Mr.Egg, thanks. Think that makes sense. Was, in a way, an academic question for me, as being a skier I do like to keep my knees fairly aligned with my feet and do a lot of upper to lower body separation at the hip (flexible and relaxed with knees bent to some degree).
Also, even before having them torn apart for me, I find that snowboarding puts a heck of a painful twisting strain on the knees, so I tend to ride without twisting or overtly dropping them onwards or outwards if I can, favouring a +/- 6 or 9 stance, stiff bindings and boots. Might be utterly wrong technique, of course (TBH, not exactly sure what they do, as I find riding around looking at my knees tends to result in me either falling over or hitting someone else.)
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The Austrian and Swiss systems both teach the +/- thing. BASI, CASI, NZSIA, PSIA, France, Italy and pretty much everywhere else doesn't. You pays your money and you makes your choice I guess!
A friend is dual-qualified BASI / Swiss so he's been exposed to both methods and prefers the aligned / BASI system, but does see some value in the other method as well. Done properly, it's actually pretty similar in terms of what the board is doing and how pressure is being applied.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
The Austrian and Swiss systems both teach the +/- thing. BASI, CASI, NZSIA, PSIA, France, Italy and pretty much everywhere else doesn't. You pays your money and you makes your choice I guess!
A friend is dual-qualified BASI / Swiss so he's been exposed to both methods and prefers the aligned / BASI system, but does see some value in the other method as well. Done properly, it's actually pretty similar in terms of what the board is doing and how pressure is being applied.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yo @Mr.Egg, on the previous thread, and again on this one, you've pretty clearly described the bio-mechanics of how you can rotate head and shoulders while maintaining different amounts of separation at different points of the body. You have not, however, described how you think this applies to snowboarding or which amount of separation you think is correct in different situations. You have only given a couple of vague lines about turning the "head, shoulders, then hips" to make the board turn. This is why you are getting shot-down.
Again, what you have written above with your analogy of shovelling is all well and good, I don't think anyone has any difficulty with the concept that we can rotate the upper and lower body in different ways and with varying degrees of separation. How do you think this applies to snowboarding? When do you think it is appropriate to use rotation of the upper body? Would you allow your whole body to rotate/twist or would you use some amount of separation? At what point in the turn? What kind of turn?
My own (BASI-trained) view is that, when riding in a duck stance, rotation should essentially be of the head only, with separation therefore at the neck level. The shoulders and, in particular, the hips remain aligned with board. A small amount of upper-body rotation (isolated at the hips, which remain aligned with the board) may occur in very tight turns, such as when riding bumps, with the shoulders "leading" the turn slightly, but this is more a natural result of the speed of the turns and edge change and it is still the feet which are driving the board and shaping the turn. Large amounts of upper-body separation are used only in freestyle riding. Again, this would generally be isolated at the hips, so, for example, when initiating a spin trick, the shoulders rotate but the hips remain aligned with the board to create tension between the upper and lower body. At take-off, this tension is released to create the spin.
Many riders do indeed have difficulty finishing off their heelside turns. In my experience, the most common reasons are:
1. Poor posture
2. Being blocked on the front foot, leading to a lack of grip on the back of the board
3. Poor management of pressure (leading to juddering and skid)
These are often either the result of or compounded by a weak start to the heelside turn. If the turn doesn't start right, it won't finish right!
The techniques I would personally use to help finish/tighten a heelside turn would primarily be aft movement, pressure management (getting lower through the latter part of the turn) and counter-pedalling (twisting the board to get more edge angle on the back half than on the front half of the board). The + position, if done well, can result in a similar effect to a counter-pedal and can be combined with aft movement and pressure management. My personal opinion would be that, particularly in a duck stance, it's easier to maintain effective posture and balance by counter-pedalling with shoulders aligned rather than using an upper-body twist.
The "point where you want to go technique" is a now very outdated way to teach beginners and it's no longer even used in France, where ESF were pretty infamous for teaching that way. French instructors now teach an aligned position from the start too. In this context, think of it as somewhat similar to a snow-plough turn for beginner skiers - it gets you turning, but it's not a particularly useful basis for developing advanced technique.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Yo @Mr.Egg, on the previous thread, and again on this one, you've pretty clearly described the bio-mechanics of how you can rotate head and shoulders while maintaining different amounts of separation at different points of the body. You have not, however, described how you think this applies to snowboarding or which amount of separation you think is correct in different situations. You have only given a couple of vague lines about turning the "head, shoulders, then hips" to make the board turn. This is why you are getting shot-down.
Again, what you have written above with your analogy of shovelling is all well and good, I don't think anyone has any difficulty with the concept that we can rotate the upper and lower body in different ways and with varying degrees of separation. How do you think this applies to snowboarding? When do you think it is appropriate to use rotation of the upper body? Would you allow your whole body to rotate/twist or would you use some amount of separation? At what point in the turn? What kind of turn?
My own (BASI-trained) view is that, when riding in a duck stance, rotation should essentially be of the head only, with separation therefore at the neck level. The shoulders and, in particular, the hips remain aligned with board. A small amount of upper-body rotation (isolated at the hips, which remain aligned with the board) may occur in very tight turns, such as when riding bumps, with the shoulders "leading" the turn slightly, but this is more a natural result of the speed of the turns and edge change and it is still the feet which are driving the board and shaping the turn. Large amounts of upper-body separation are used only in freestyle riding. Again, this would generally be isolated at the hips, so, for example, when initiating a spin trick, the shoulders rotate but the hips remain aligned with the board to create tension between the upper and lower body. At take-off, this tension is released to create the spin.
Many riders do indeed have difficulty finishing off their heelside turns. In my experience, the most common reasons are:
1. Poor posture
2. Being blocked on the front foot, leading to a lack of grip on the back of the board
3. Poor management of pressure (leading to juddering and skid)
These are often either the result of or compounded by a weak start to the heelside turn. If the turn doesn't start right, it won't finish right!
The techniques I would personally use to help finish/tighten a heelside turn would primarily be aft movement, pressure management (getting lower through the latter part of the turn) and counter-pedalling (twisting the board to get more edge angle on the back half than on the front half of the board). The + position, if done well, can result in a similar effect to a counter-pedal and can be combined with aft movement and pressure management. My personal opinion would be that, particularly in a duck stance, it's easier to maintain effective posture and balance by counter-pedalling with shoulders aligned rather than using an upper-body twist.
The "point where you want to go technique" is a now very outdated way to teach beginners and it's no longer even used in France, where ESF were pretty infamous for teaching that way. French instructors now teach an aligned position from the start too. In this context, think of it as somewhat similar to a snow-plough turn for beginner skiers - it gets you turning, but it's not a particularly useful basis for developing advanced technique.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I ride tight duck stance, though, so as a technique, + and - would not accord with how I make turns.
(TBH, not exactly sure what they do, as I find riding around looking at my knees tends to result in me either falling over or hitting someone else.)