 Poster: A snowHead
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| eblunt wrote: |
| @Scamper, Not unless you give them the pass number, and you might have thrown the card away or lost it, and with hundreds of other cards expiring on the same date they'd have no way of knowing which pic it is the pic of you. |
Hmmm..yes, but presumably the person I was quoting who was concerned about their photo being on the database and wanting it deleted would take more care of their card?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@eblunt, you may be right but are you certain no t&c’s Appky when the ticket is purchased in person? I though t&c’s were ‘activated’ when one enters the lift area and accepts to be transported. There is probably a noticed posted somewhere in clear site, but in fine print, that refers to an onlie document. Very much like when someone enters a carpark, golf course or ice skating rink. I can’t see a corporation providing a service without protecting its liability or income.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Ozboy, They need to show what the T&Cs are somewhere clearly for them to apply. Concert tickets for example have them printed on the back. You can't just introduce T&Cs unless you can show that that you made reasonable efforts to make them known to the punter.
Otherwise all sorts of contracts would be chaos - "you didn't read the small print that we never showed you ...."
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@eblunt, perhaps they are in clear view and we don’t take notice - will take a look next week. Their would most certainly be a mechanism for them to protect themselves.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Ozboy, I await your findings with interest !
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| ... perhaps they are in clear view and we don’t take notice - will take a look next week. Their would most certainly be a mechanism for them to protect themselves. |
Agreed. One obvious possibility is that there is a reference to the T&Cs on the "proof of purchase" you get with passes bought at the lift office (which is regarded as an integral part of the pass, even though in 99% if cases it isn't subsequently used).
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One of the barriers I went through yesterday at Gerlos had a sticker on saying "Smile!! You are on camera" or some such... I noticed it belatedly and wasn't quick enough to take a photo to show you all.
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Amusing entertainment to read through the thread all at once.
Some people have money to burn. But they're the minority.
Most people hunt for discounts. But only a small portion of them gets upset when they found out there're other "discounts" that don't apply to them!
There're many discounts out there, all with this or that restrictions. People got so used to the restrictions of the common discounts they can't digest the un-restricted ones (and the benefits that come with it)!
Discounted, non-transferable lift pass are the norm. So a few people got all hot under the collar when others discover non-discounted daily lift pass that are TRANSFERABLE! They even call that "fraud"!
It's like when I buy a full fare airline ticket, and then change my mind to fly to some place else right at the airport. I may elicit some jealousy of those who never pay for a full price ticket. Some even have the nerve to suggest the airline agent who allow me to change my flight should be fired! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@abc, It's a roller coaster of a read. Firing the lift company employee was the highlight for me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I just saw this post. This is a really BAD idea. If you are buying a full week's pass then it says they cannot be shared. If you buy a full price daily pass it is possible. If you get caught using another persons weekly pass you will be fined, get the lift pass taken away and you could even end up with a French criminal record as this is fraud. I seem to remember somewhere it says they reserve the right to inform the police. I know what I have written sounds harsh, but the rules say NO sharing of lift passes. I know one of the ladies that has the job of catching people doing this. She spots you, then calls in the heavies and they take you out of the lift queue. Not a good thing to happen in front of your kid. My advice, go to the lift office and explain your situation. You never know they might have a good solution or just buy daily passes and then you should not have any problem.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 12-02-19 0:17; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
| ... I know one of the ladies that has the job of catching people doing this. She spots you, then calls in the heavies and they take you out of the lift queue. ... |
How does she spot the people?
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@Ray Zorro, They do spot checks for passes that do not have photos. If you are asked to show your pass and the paper that goes with it, then if you have insurance added I think they can see your name. If you cannot prove the pass is yours you might have a problem. For passes with photos they just look on the machine for those with photos. I think they are really hot on adults using kids passes or season pass holders sharing their passes. TBH I do not think they often check shorter stay adult passes that do not have a photo or any ID attached to them, but is it worth the risk. It could really mess up your holiday. OH, I just remembered, when you go through the gate at the lifts, the different passes flash up with different colour lights. I think for kids, adults, season passes, maybe special discounted ones. Take a look next time you go through the gate and see what colour light flashes.
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You know it makes sense.
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@snowcrazy, "If you are buying a full week's pass then it says they cannot be shared."
Where ? Not the online T&Cs, as we're talking about an unnamed pass bought in resort. The last time I saw one of these receipts, it didn't have T&Cs on, and for a cash purchase , doesn't even have a name on the receipt ( if without insurance).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It will be the same core T&Cs. Available online for Paradiski, on both the Les Arcs and La Plagne websites:
"GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE OF SKI LIFT PASSES"
ARTICLE 1. Final paragraph: "The Pass is strictly personal and non-transferable, unless the Pass corresponds to the shortest duration on the price chart."
(There are supplementary terms covering additional info for passes bought online).
Article 2 (paraphrased). Breach of conditions, if identified by an inspector, means a fine of up to €300, under the provisons of the French Criminal Procedures code. If you can't pay immediately you have to provide proof of identity and address. If you can't do the latter then it is a call to th police/gendarmes, and possible immediate detention.
You may or may not be correct in thinking that it is difficult for them to identify offenders. But as snowcrazy says, why risk a criminal record?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
| TBH I do not think they often check shorter stay adult passes that do not have a photo or any ID attached to them |
I know you are late to the thread but this is the only thing under discussion, not any of the other scenario's you mention.
| snowcrazy wrote: |
| but is it worth the risk. |
Well that is what people have been discussing, with answers varying from there is no risk at all because lift pass lady has confirmed so through to there is a special place in hell for people that share lift passes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
| I just saw this post. This is a really BAD idea. If you are buying a full week's pass then it says they cannot be shared. If you buy a full price daily pass it is possible. |
Did the OP say whether he’s buying a daily pass or discount weekly?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@ecureuil, I think you're missing the point slightly. It's not what's *in* the T&Cs a proposed by the website, it's whether they are deemed to be applicable in the case of a pass bought anonymously at a lift pass office.
"Unless a party has taken reasonable steps to draw the other party’s attention to the contents, or some particular contents, of the proposed contract, the consent of the offeree to the offer will not be taken to extend as far as the term or terms of which the offeree is ignorant. The test is whether the offeree knew the proposed term or terms or had reasonable means of knowledge of the term or terms as a result of the offeror’s actions."
Simply having it on a website , where the customer can not be assumed to have seen it there, isn't good enough IMO.
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@eblunt, I think the resort will argue they have taken reasonable steps such as having a 'subject to T&C's found at www...' placed on the pricing board on the ticket office, a reference on the paper receipt and also on the info board at the lift itself. This could supersede any misinformation provided by staff. I assume also there would be some aspects of common law (and common sense) that also governs lift use. In any case I wonder the same about getting the tube, bus train... at no point is my attention drawn to T&C's (as i tap in and out with applepay) but I do know that I have to pay for my journey and to not be a d*ck to fellow passengers and staff.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So let's assume for a moment that they haven't directed your clearly to their terms and conditions (putting aside whether or not these T's and C's are contractually or legally enforceable if it went to court). Off you go to ski and you share a pass with your OH and either one of you get's stopped and challenged. What are you going to do?
Argue about non-enforceable T's and C's?
Call Your lawyer and start a GDPR case (as they haven't got your permission to take your picture)?
Refuse to give the liftie your lift pass?
All this whilst the other liftie cancels your pass and then refuses your access to the lift.
I genuinely think the lift operators/resorts should offer a shared pass option even on longer (weekly) passes, perhaps at a small premium so they feel they aren't completely losing out on revenue but while they don't, I'm not sure the material impact of the risk of getting my pass pulled would be worth it.
Each to their own however.
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@ansta1, yep half of the folks on this thread will agree! Some resorts such as Serfaus offer such a pass for young families will others have suggested that some resorts may be able to make a concession if you talk to them. If it were me I would probably go to a small compact resort where lift passes are somewhat cheaper, half day or carnet (pay-by-ride) passes are offered and skiing is close by to facilitate changeover and meeting for lunch. My pick would me Madesimo or one of the PDS satellite resorts but there are probably 100’s out there.
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@Ozboy, but I do know that I have to pay for my journey and to not be a d*ck to fellow passengers and staff.
Of course, We're not deny paying for something, it's whether someone else could use your ticket. I wasn't aware of any reference to www .... on the receipt on the from the lift pass office, I certainly don't remember seeing it on the last receipt I saw. If you say it is now on there for certain then that is interesting.
This could supersede any misinformation provided by staff.
They don't work there any more
As a related aside, I have a few passes at the flat for visitors when they come out. As I use the Edenski bonus points ( which gives points for usage of passes of mine ) system, I load the pass for a visitor, they give me the money, and I get the reward points. As they are done online they are named passes that I re-use, so the names don't necessarily match, as I have a lot of different visitors. It's still, say, a 6 day pass that John will use for the whole week, but the name on it is Fred. No-ones ever wanted a look in hundreds of days of skiing, but this has made me think. It's technically a risk to re-use an old pass of someone else's , when you want to save the faff of going all the way to queue at the lift office.
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| eblunt wrote: |
@ecureuil, I think you're missing the point slightly. It's not what's *in* the T&Cs a proposed by the website, it's whether they are deemed to be applicable in the case of a pass bought anonymously at a lift pass office.
"Unless a party has taken reasonable steps to draw the other party’s attention to the contents, or some particular contents, of the proposed contract, the consent of the offeree to the offer will not be taken to extend as far as the term or terms of which the offeree is ignorant. The test is whether the offeree knew the proposed term or terms or had reasonable means of knowledge of the term or terms as a result of the offeror’s actions."
Simply having it on a website , where the customer can not be assumed to have seen it there, isn't good enough IMO. |
That quote relates to contract law in Canada. Do you have any evidence that something similar applies in France?
I am 99.9% convinced that both the General T&Cs of Sale of Ski Passes, and the General T&Cs of Use of Ski Passes, will apply equally whether the passes are bought on line or in resort. It is only the Additional T&Cs for Online purchase that won't apply to passes bought in resort; that is the only reason for those terms to be split off into a separate document.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
| either one of you get's stopped and challenged. What are you going to do? |
It's a valid adult ski pass with no name or photo, what would be the issue?
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Its the same as Train or Bus Tickets They are NOT transferable expect much larger fines than you would get in the UK..
Your also likely to get banned from the ski area & beyond.
It will be down to you to prove who is wrong not for the Operator..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This idea of Les Arcs lifts taking pictures of people at first use of the pass is a bit off. It's hardly the most technologically advanced of resorts. I mean, they are reusing hand me down lifts there! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Oh, here we go again!
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| wills_h wrote: |
| Oh, here we go again! |
Not really, some very interesting new and sensible input. It's a grey area at least for sure. Whether you trust what an ex lift company employee has told you vs how applicable are the T&Cs to an unnamed pass. The T&Cs admit later on that sharing an unnamed pass is not fraudulent ('nominative pass' bit) , which muddies the water further.
One thing for sure, A one day Paradiski pass is shareable, which saves the OP about €200.
Another thing for sure, regardless of how grey the area is, or the rights and wrongs of it, there is no way they can do anything about an anonymous pass (no insurance) accompanied by a receipt with no name on it either, being shared. Unless they stop you, note the pass number, take your name, for reference, then later on stop the same pass again just on the off chance someone else is using it. As I said said earlier, I would liken it to borrowing someone's season ticket for the football, only one person can actually use the seat at any one time.
On balance, if I was in a situation of wanting to alternate mornings and afternoons with someone I'd go the one day pass route.
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You know it makes sense.
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@eblunt, Sorry, I agree that there has been some additional information added, I was actually meaning the post a few above where someone who clearly hadn't read the rest of the thread was commenting. I feared we maybe heading back towards the block, it's all fraud and you will be sent to the gallows, type statements.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Layne wrote: |
| ansta1 wrote: |
| either one of you get's stopped and challenged. What are you going to do? |
It's a valid adult ski pass with no name or photo, what would be the issue? |
If their t's and c's say no sharing and if they take and compare photo's then there is technically a possibility that they could stop you. I am not saying it's happening or even likely to happen, was just saying if it does happen it could in the short term not be a pleasant experience.
I know me and Mrs A did it many years ago when the kids were young and we shared the childcare.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Remember kids, Its only illegal if you get caught !!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@wills_h, users on here will not normally back-read six pages before commenting. I think it’s fine as it keeps the conversation rolling (whether they are right or wrong).
@eblunt, Perhaps could be insurance issues, should something go wrong, if you are allowing guests to use non-transferable tix?? . Just found a receipt in my wallet from Chatel issued weekend write last and it clearly says that it must be presented on request (in Fr and Eng) but makes no reference to T&C’s.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It seems to bring up alot of questions regarding t&c scope generally.
Do they just refer to the lift systems? Who owns the domain you're skiing on? How could someone remove your lift ticket for poor skiing if they have no juristriction over domain etc etc. And just who has the authority to remove from your possession something you've payed for? Is there some method of impartial judgement, do the t&c s specifically refer to criminal action if infringed and is there some way by which you could reasonably know this when purchasing pass?
Ticket and permitting is surely going to bring up scope in so many scenarios. Can they all be encompassed in one set of t&c? And could all purchasers hope to understand them on the spot if they get that complex?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ringingmaster wrote: |
| Remember kids, Its only illegal if you get caught !!! |
Ok but these kids then complain when they get a €5000-10000 fine in Austria. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ski3 wrote: |
| ... And could all purchasers hope to understand them on the spot if they get that complex? |
Quite apart from the fact that the real T&Cs are going to be those in the local language - with any translations provided effectively for information only.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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So in an attempt to see if we could get clarification once and for all...
Email 1:
My wife and I plan to come to the resort and will have our 6-month-old child with us.
Is it possible for us to buy 1 x 6 day pass and share it between the two of us?
Reply 1:
Thank you for your interest of our Paradiski skiarea.
According to our terms of sale and use the skipass is no transferable.
A skier needs a skipass to access to the skilifts, this one is personalized when you purchase it by the sale website, but not at the sale point office.
In waiting to welcome you on our Paradiski skiarea, we are at disposal for further information.
Email 2:
So as I understand it if I buy it at the sale point office then we are OK to share the pass?
Reply 2:
The answer at your question is in our previous mail.
I know those on the 'sharing is fine' side will see this as further proof that you are allowed to. However, I still find the reply to the second email where I tried to get a straight yes/no a bit elusive.
I guess where I end up is that if you buy in resort and share the pass you're technically breaking the T&C's, but the lift pass company know about this 'hack' and appear to encourage it/turn a blind eye. I still wouldn't openly share the pass (e.g. switch over at the bottom of the lift in full view of staff) and if for some reason I got caught, I wouldn't feel assured that these emails would be of any help (as they won't categorically state that it's an acceptable practice).
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I would suggest Email3.
"But in your terms on the website, it says that pass in "non-transferable unless it corresponds to the shortest duration on the price chart"
The shortest duration for a Paradiski pass is one day, so that MUST mean that it IS transferable.
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@michaelf, the obvious follow up question I was referring to ..with the answer I would have expected to get
@eblunt, he asked about a 6 day pass not a 1 day pass
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
@michaelf, the obvious follow up question I was referring to ..with the answer I would have expected to get
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You've changed your tune!!
When I said last week that if I'd asked that follow up question we'd be going round in circles, and you said
"I don't think you would have been going round in circles, the answer would have been a simple yes or no, and that would have been and end to it."
But it clearly isn't a simple yes/no as you suggested it would be - they are not prepared to be that explicit.
Curious to know why you expected one answer last week and a different answer this week?
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@holidayloverxx, Oh yes, I read it as 6 x 1 day pass !!!
@Ray Zorro, Yes, I daren't ask again as my yes will probably turn into a no. I wonder if they have noticed a flurry of enquiries and reacted accordingly.
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FAQ
