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Why are there so many idiots on the slopes?/Pole-tapping

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Weathercam,
What I want to know is who shouted cock : you or him? I had a true LOL at that.
Edit - Wow... This thread's a real page turner we're up to three already.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
And while on the subject, please don't bother hollering at me from behind or tapping your poles. I'll still be following the rules, don't think you can dodge your responsibility as over taking skier that way.
snow conditions
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Caveat I've only watched the video - not sure who the dickhead is. Presumably the cameraman if he got upset about an innocent manoeuvre.

Now I'll get stuck into the rest......
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@Dave of the Marmottes, looking forward to it
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ahh so I called it right. So now the in fairness to the relative newbie point.

Most slope users don't bother with the FIS code at all. Of those that do at best they have a hazy certainty that ahead/downhill skier has right of way and don't go much beyond that. Observe if an ESF instructor ever glances uphill before he jumps 20 kids back onto the piste in front of you frinstance.

The setting off / merging blind really gets my goat but standing around can be dangerous.

I got well and truly taken out in Jackson Hole by an idiot dropping switch across a cat track. But the accident wouldn't have happened without a bunch of resort ski instructors in their own clinics stood all around on and above the catrack ptesenting both a hazard and a visibility problem - I'd have seen the dickhead and he'd have had a chance of seeing me actually moving below him. It's fair to say the instructor who accused me of being out of control and hitting him got a few minutes of anglo saxon for his trouble.

So not even a quite prestigious resort ski school live by the code consistently.
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@peter_h, also before you start whinging about mods - consider it enough rope to hang yourself. You started the thread presumably to try to get some agreement / congratulation on someone entirely minding their own business you called a dickhead. As you've seen from the responses you are dead wrong on that. Probably because you don't have that much experience under your belt beyond (i'm going out on a wild guess here) some classic older white guy entitlement.


You are dead right on one point though. Being correct by the rules doesn't keep you out of hospital given the general lack of adherance and misunderstanding of the rules. I HATE crowded pistes but if I have to be on them I'm skiing as defensively as possible - down the margins and if I'm not going at sufficient speed that anyone overtaking me has to be pretty handyfrequent shoulder checks. And shoulder checks for sure before any lane changing. You only have to side by the side of any piste for a few mins to see plenty of people skidding way back on their heels at inappropriate speed. Those feckers ain't evading if someone strays into their path.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
martinm wrote:
@peter_h, the boarder was clearly going to turn as he'd reached the edge of the piste. Unless you expected him to stop, look left, look right, look left again and make a single traverse before repeating for another traverse?

Stop digging.
Dont be silly He only wanted the boarrder to move out of his way. What the boarder did later was not interesting provided he was not involved. Toofy Grin
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
One thing about SH though, if your wrong, or make a silly mistake, then man up and own it, usually everybody moves on and it's done.

A principle I have tested myself once or twice Madeye-Smiley
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@Weathercam, Never had anybody skiing uphill at me Puzzled I don't think anyone could blame you for that one. He was obviously skiing beyond his ability.

On the plus side, looks like you had some amazing conditions Very Happy Very Happy
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peter_h wrote:
That snowboarder did just that, without looking. The video clearly shows he didn't check. Obviously, nothing happened, because I was quite some way back.


Guy was on a heelside turn from the very start of your video. Where did you think he was going to go?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I’ve been taken out twice within ten minutes on the button lift in the CFe, by the same lady learner, who was on a beginners course. She hadn’t mastered snow plough turns. It would appear you are not safe anywhere.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Just for a change of pace

This is one of my favourite videos for showing even top exam candidates can have total tunnel vision and come within a whisker of clattering the public and that even a resort as media savvy as WB doesn't review its content critically enough

Guy at 2.53


http://youtube.com/v/vyNXPWhomw0
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I think the use of 'downhill skier' refers to 'the skier ahead of your direction of motion'. Thus a skier can be uphill of you after a schuss, yet still be ahead (or down piste) of you in terms of who's responsible for avoiding collision.

This also comes into effect in the rare case when one skier does a U turn on a piste such that they then travel back up slope towards a descending skier. Both skiers are then equally responsible for avoiding each other, as both are 'ahead' of each other, although one would be less forgiving to the contra-flow skier making such a rare and dangerous manouvre.

Consider the case of a beginner who having failed to ski sufficiently fast down a schuss is unable to ascend to the top of the following hump, and then, ineptly, turns around to ski back down slope, towards other oncoming skiers (schussing up hill toward them). The beginner is uphill, yet skiing downhill, contra-flow. Both the beginner and the schussers have an equal responsibility for avoiding each other.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@crosbie, I think I disagree. If you are schussing you still have to get clearly past someone before you are the ahead skier. If on say a cambered catrack you pass someone on the downhill side but using gravity they turn into you its still your fault for not getting further past.

Your example of the beginner turning back against traffic seems bizarre. There is almost always a clear direction a run is going in.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@crosbie, I think I disagree. If you are schussing you still have to get clearly past someone before you are the ahead skier. If on say a cambered catrack you pass someone on the downhill side but using gravity they turn into you its still your fault for not getting further past.

Your example of the beginner turning back against traffic seems bizarre. There is almost always a clear direction a run is going in.


Narrow tracks are always fraught with peril due to skiers who think they get to own it because they're the 'ahead skier' vs following skiers who assume all skiers in such situations expect to be overtaken on occasion and will thus check for potential over-takers each traverse - over-takers who do try their best to overtake safely (and click their poles, etc.).

It's therefore less easy, in any consequent collisions, to decide between 'behind skier collided with ahead skier' vs '50:50 accidental convergence' - don't you think?

A beginner skiing downhill, yet against traffic, is nevertheless possible and plausible, and an example of where it isn't quite so obvious as to how the rules apply.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@crosbie,
I agree if you on a really busy narrow catrack you are basically an asshole if you insist on exercising your right to swerve wherever you want. At the very least you'll cause some chain reaction behind you. In such circumstances it's also possible to pass someone entirely safety then get slowed by traffic ahead such that the passee comes back past you and confuses the ahead skier convention. In such levels of traffic you hope the common sense of "don't be an asshole and hope no one else is" trumps everything.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@peter_h, Here you go. Hope it helps. Very Happy
http://www.uksnowsports.co.uk/downloads/FIS%20Code%20of%20Conduct%20-%2010%20points%202010.pdf
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
peter_h has already admitted that he can't ski by announcing a preference for wide easy pistes and having a pathological fear of snowboarders and children.

Anyway, let's pick up on the driving analogy. Firstly there is no 'fast' lane on any motorway. There are simply 'lanes', one of which is a driving lane and the other lanes are for overtaking. If a vehicle has an incident in any lane, sudden engine failure, tyre blowout, etc., any following vehicle should be able to stop safely by having left a suitable distance between themselves and the vehicle in front. If you can't do that, then you are driving too close. Simple as.
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Quote:

ignoring the personal attacks which are typical on snowheads

@peter_h, you started a thread by filming somebody without their permission, posting it on social media and calling them an idiot. The responses have actually been quite restrained given that you are entirely in the wrong and have not even had the grace to apologise.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Thanks cardweg for that PDF.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
@HotDogger, I shouted "Cock" as I saw him coming out of the corner of eye skiing up at me, in much the same way as I was recently able to shout "oh feck" as the OH said, when I slipped over on some ice and my whole body was horizontal in the air before crash landing back to earth.

Yesterday classic narrow chemins, and being a Sunday, "Cock" factor was high and some of the stuff people do without thinking the impact that they might cause on people behind them, but hey ho that's all part of skiing and unfortunately, and if you're a faster skier overtaking you have to expect that what comes with the territory.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that people skiing with the smallest of backpacks or some bag on strings without straps or chest strap, or that they've taken from their kids then the "cock" factor is likely to be very high Laughing Laughing

I might even have to start taking photos and setup a new thread that others can contribute to, or other bizarre sights you see on the hill, bit like Jerry of the Day Laughing



Right going up the hill to shred the overnight 5cm of fresh rolling eyes
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
queenie pretty please wrote:


Anyway, let's pick up on the driving analogy.... Simple as.


Not really.

So you are driving on a freeway, carrying heavy, fast traffic, and you decide (for whatever reason) to slam in the brakes. A Double-B runs over you. You in the right, but probably dead. Not much solace in that, except your relatives might get some money from the litigation/insurance to bury you.

In driving, at least in my country, you must give way to traffic if you change lanes, which could be taken as being analogous to turning across a piste. That’s the problem with analogies - they only go so far to support an argument before the connection becomes tenuous.

As I said earlier, there are rules and there is common sense. The 2 don’t always lead to the same decision. Weave across a piste that is carrying heavy, fast traffic, or a narrow cat-track, and you are risking being taken out. You will be in the right, but still in a world of hurt. I recall what an early mentor said to me, “Rules are for the guidance of the wise, and blind obedience of fools”.

If I could be bothered, I would start a thread on “Lack of common sense on the slopes”. It is depressing to see instructors, with beginners, stop across a narrow track or a lift unload. Monkey see, monkey do.

BTW: Just to be clear, I am not defending the OP. Like most here, I did not see anything the boarder did in that situation thst warranted the Dickhead label.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Weathercam,
The Cock Factor.
You may have hit on your hands there!
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I see what you mean by the original intention to post, the near miss of another skier.

But, probably not for within this discussion, that's some really good video of how the skis are working throughout transition from one direction to the other. If you just watch the skis only you can see all the flex coming on and off the ski, along with how long they are off the snow in particular the tails, and how quickly they load up as contact comes back and the ski shape is brought into play.

Apologies for threads drift, just thought it was excellent video that shows ski interaction clearly. Very Happy
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rob@rar wrote:
peter_h wrote:
He didn't look upslope before doing the turn.
Typically, I don't look upslope before turning, almost nobody does. It's why the FIS places responsibility on the uphill skier to avoid the downhill skier.

In this video the boarder was moving slowly and didn't really change direction when he popped up. The skier gave him plenty of room as he passed. Both seemed to be enjoying the slope in an appropriate manner. No harm, no foul. Really can't see what the problem is.


+1
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:

@peter_h, you started a thread by filming somebody without their permission, posting it on social media and calling them an idiot. The responses have actually been quite restrained given that you are entirely in the wrong and have not even had the grace to apologise.


Spot on!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
peter_h wrote:

My understanding, from a number of skiers, is that a skier or snowboarder can do absolutely anything on the slope and if somebody who was upslope hits them, it is the latter's fault 100%.


That seems like the only rule that is possible really, even if I'd like it otherwise. Take Saturday, I've never seen our local resort so rammed with people, it was like Beijing Mountain. We saw one piste with a big sign "Experts only, steep slope, intermidiots take the other piste". Well it was like a red rag to a bull, I've never seen so many bad skiers on a single slope - moms and dads dragging their petrified youngsters down in tears, snowboarders sitting on the bums blocking the whole piste, people doing one long traverse side to side, ski school mega structures, the lot. We also saw far more blood wagons hauling people off the mountains than we did even in the xmas icicle fest.

Skiers do have a responsibility to ski on slopes they are capable of skiing / boarding and to not stop in dangerous places but at the end of the day, weighing up the pros and cons, it is for the uphill skier to take idiocy into account.

On a similar note this ski instructor has been getting a lot of criticism


http://youtube.com/v/9Ls-MYo3vGQ
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@ski3, oh there is some good skiing no doubt. Guy in lime green and baby blue seems particularly dynamic.

But I thought it a good example - if people who are clearly in the top percentileish of skiers on the mountain and have a professional duty towards safety can take people out while pursuing selfish goals the other99% are definitely a risk.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@davidof, goodness me! The guy said sorry immediately and kept on apologising. Did she whack him with her pole as well? Is that why he cried ‘Ow!’
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@davidof's video is a brilliant example of instructor hypocrisy. She has stopped her class taking up a prime bit of real estate in the middle of the piste below what is obviously quite a firm patch and then goes mental with " I am the law" when someone predictably loses an edge and has a low energy slide into them.

On a similar vein last year I saw an Italian Instructor drag down a guy off piste and physically tackle him while yelling about bambinos. Bambinos were nowhere in sight so I assume he'd abandoned them in the red mist.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Dave of the Marmottes, she was really aggressive and fancy chasing after him. It was an honest mistake.
She will pick on the wrong person one day and get a surprise!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@davidof, a link from the end of that vid was this


http://youtube.com/v/T0YuY3T29hw

Something I have seen in Tignes a few times on a uni student week. Sadly.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@davidof, Actually the ski instructor is absolutely in the right. The guy crashed into her, then attempted to just ski off. The FIS rules are very explicit that after any accident you are duty bound to provide name and address (including if you are a witness). This is equivalent to a hit and run. Saying sorry is not good enough, he should have stopped and provided his details as requested. And the instructor is quite within her rights to try and prevent him from fleeing the scene.

And what sort of plonker can't avoid crashing into the instructor in the first place? I also don't get the criticism of where she was standing, there may be all sorts of good reasons for the class to be there including that one of the class had an issue.

The rules are clear, it is for the uphill skier to avoid anyone below them. And provide name and address following any incident, accidental or not. And it is absolutely unacceptable (and actually illegal in quite a few places) to ski off without doing so when you have crashed into someone.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Ever heard of the FIS code?

9: Assistance
At accidents every skier is duty-bound to assist.

Commentary: It is a cardinal principle for all sportsmen that they should render assistance following an accident, independant of any legal obligation to do so. Immediate first-aid should be given, the appropriate authorities allerted and the place of the accident marked to warn other skiers. FIS hopes that hopes that a hit-and-run offence in skiing will incur a criminal conviction similar to a hit-and-run offence on the road and that equivalent penalties will be imposed by all countries where such legislation is not already in force.

10: Identification
Every skier or witness, whether a responsible party or not, must exchange names and addresses following an accident.

Commentary: Witnesses are of great importance in establishing a full and proper report of an accident, and therefore everybody must consider that it is his duty as a responsible person to provide information as a witness. Reports of the rescue service and of the police as well as photographs are of considerable assistance in determining civil and criminal liability.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
There is a lot to be said for getting to the ski lift the instant it opens and packing it up after a few hours Smile
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@zikomo, I didn’t think he tried to ski off as he was lying on the floor wasn’t he?
How I saw it was she tried to take his ski to stop him skiing off? She seemed to lose it as soon as he went into her?
Maybe she thought he was going to just leave?

I agree if he was about to ski off then that would be wrong.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
But no one was hurt in the chap skiing into the instructor. No reason at all to give details. Of course the guy should have missed them, but it was a simple accident, and when the instructor had stopped in such a daft place there was some causative factor based on that. As for asking for the passport......

6. Stopping on the piste
Unless absolutely necessary, a skier or
snowboarder must avoid stopping on
the piste in narrow places or where visibility is
restricted. After a fall in such a
place, a skier or snowboarder must move clear
of the piste as soon as possible.
Except on wide pistes stops must be made at
the side of the piste. One must not stop in
narrow places or where it is difficult to be seen
from above
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
peter_h wrote:
There is a lot to be said for getting to the ski lift the instant it opens and packing it up after a few hours Smile


Yes I agree and I very much hope you do this. That way the slopes will be safer for all, with at least one less ignorant, arrogant and somewhat incompetent slope user around in the later part of the day.

In my experience it is not those who make mistakes who are the most dangerous (we all do that sometimes). It is those who simply cannot accept any feedback on their behaviour no matter how sensitively it is given. I do quite a lot of "dangerous" activities where the consequence of poor decisions is high (potentially fatal). I would rather have a complete novice than someone with some experience who reacts badly to feedback. The most competent of all are always those whose first reaction to any comment or feedback is to assume it is accurate, and that they are potentially at fault.
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You know, if at the start of your day you meet a dick head, it's unfortunate and can be annoying, if, however you then continue to meet dick heads all day, you might need to question, actually who is the dick head here?
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@VolklAttivaS5, It looks to me like he WAS attempting to ski off, but also agree it is not all that clear at what point he tries to do so! Was it before or after the instructor tried to grab his ski? Regardless, the fact is that he DID just ski off. And that is a clear breach of the FIS code (and actually a criminal offence in some places). He should have stopped and provided his name and address.

@endoman, Sorry but I think you should have another look at the FIS code. The requirement to give name and address applies to all accidents, not just those where someone was hurt. And we don't know whether or not she was hurt. I was crashed into at high speed a few years ago which resulted in 3 cracked ribs and a lot of pain for several months. I skied off after the incident thinking it was just a bit of bruising not realising how serious the injury was until later in the day. And I do not think she was stood somewhere that was difficult to see. And even if she was stopped where she should not be, that does not mean the uphill skier no longer has the responsibility to avoid her or to provide name and address following an accident. So in fact it is somewhat irrelevant.
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