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Why are there so many idiots on the slopes?/Pole-tapping

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

Quote:

Pole tapping is generally considered a safe way of letting the skier in front know you're overtaking. And on a narrow track it is often essential.

Sorry but you have absolutely no entitlement to overtake on a narrow track. If the downhill skier is choosing to occupy the whole track by snowploughing then it is essential for you to be patient and simply slow down.


Actually that is very revealing - the idea that it "essential" to overtake and that the thought of waiting behind patiently and quietly for a safe opportunity is not a perfectly good option.
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ecureuil wrote:
I'm not advocating pole tapping to be best practice; if I'm the behind skier I almost never do it, and am far more likely to hang back and wait for a risk-free place to pass. But if some idiot coming up behind is going to pass anyway, whether safe of not, I would far rather know they are there. If I can then easily modify my behaviour to reduce the risk of an accident I will, even though it is not my responsbility to do so and an accident would be 100% their fault, because I would rather not risk serious injury in a collision.
Not doubting it works for you, I'm simply saying it doesn't work for all slope users for a range of reasons (and the skier who is doing the pole clicking has no idea how that audible warning would be received). On balance, I think the temptation to give a warning to the skier in front of you should be resisted.
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I think I have shouted verbal warnings in circumstances where I have been overtaking slow and wide and someone else comes into my narrow side "escape zone" in a double overtake. in such circumstances the slower skier doing what they damn well please has the potential to endanger me through the actions of the double overtaker. I think that's a circumstance where a warning that they are not in splendid isolation on the track is warranted. FTAOD this has been on busy cat tracks where there isn't the space to stop and slowing down excessively puts one at risk from following traffic.


The type of situation where "don't be a dick" applies to everyone and is the most important for avoiding colliisions. Bear in mind overtake in such circumstances too slow and wide and someone else will seize the gap between you and the overtakee.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 30-01-19 10:47; edited 1 time in total
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I think in the event of a possible imminent collision it would be difficult to not shout a warning, it's just instinctive and human nature, and perfectly understandable. But I think that's a completely different scenario to a a 'pre-planned' warning tap of the poles which is considered to be normal practice to alert other slope users of your presence and intentions. I'd also suggest that if a skier is finding themselves giving frequent last-second warnings to avoid a collision then they should probably examine their own behaviour and tactics in those situations.
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I'm guilty of pole tapping, never occurred to me that anyone would be offended or confused (never saw earlier posts on the subject), possibly because I would not think anything if I was in front of somebody who did it. I always assumed it was more of a courtesy than a p*ssing contest.
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Zermattandchips wrote:
I'm guilty of pole tapping, never occurred to me that anyone would be offended or confused (never saw earlier posts on the subject), possibly because I would not think anything if I was in front of somebody who did it. I always assumed it was more of a courtesy than a p*ssing contest.


Me too. Also my sons were "taught" to do this by an ESF instructor several years ago in ADH. We all tap gently with the idea that we are approaching in a calm and safe manner so that the person in front is aware. We'll over take only when it's safe for all to do so. However, having read some of the comments I my desist and "unteach" my sons Smile, after all we are all out there to enjoy ourselves.
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There's not a cat in hells chance of me hearing a pole tap behind me these days. when i wasn't mutt n jeff I hated to hear it - I had no idea which side the person was on, how quickly they were coming and what i was "expected" to do.
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There's no point in pole tapping when many slope users have music blasting into their ears as they ski rolling eyes
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They should steal all the poles from the average ski punters, and the average standard of general piste skiing would improve Wink (IMHO)
But that's another thread Wink

And steal all the selfie sticks too Twisted Evil
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andy wrote:
And steal all the selfie sticks too Twisted Evil


Too bloody right, and use them for a colonoscopy Twisted Evil


And if that had happened we wouldn't have had to endure ths thread Toofy Grin
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rob@rar wrote:
I think comparisons with cycling or driving are not suitable comparisons for skiing along cat tracks.


Au contraire mon brave, pole tapping is the skiing equivalent of being flashed by the repmobile behind you on the A road or motorway.
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Quote:


They should steal all the poles from the average ski punters, and the average standard of general piste skiing would improve (IMHO)


Andy please Expand ... I have more recently been exaggerating my pole planting, partly to rectify my rubbish technique on when I initiate the turn (too early); I have stuck with the poling movement even if not planting in order to maintain a rhythm; a welcome by product imo is that it should be blindingly obvious to anyone behind me (at least to those who understand when to pole) when I am about to turn ... am I one of the punters that needs to have my poles stollen? If so, why?
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Its years since my first lesson at Hillend, I do remember being taught to always look up hill before setting off and the downhill skier (for yes, it was before snowboarding took off) having right of way.

So a question for instructors, is teaching the code part of any of the main governing bodies' syllabus and are you encouraged to focus on it at any stage. Is there any requirement to re visit it with more advanced groups.
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Gilberts Fridge wrote:
So a question for instructors, is teaching the code part of any of the main governing bodies' syllabus and are you encouraged to focus on it at any stage. Is there any requirement to re visit it with more advanced groups.
Yes, in a low key way if you are talking specifically about the code, but in a very central way if you are talking about managing your client(s) safely.

The governing bodies don't place specific responsibilities on you to teach in any specific way, for any grade of skier. I don't often talk specifically about the code, but I often talk about things which are important to keeping everyone safe, especially if my clients are focused in a drill when it is fairly easy to lose focus on your surroundings. So terrain choice, warning to your clients, keeping an eye out for other slope users all important when you are on the hill. Sometimes think I go a bit overboard with warnings about looking up the hill when they start drill, making sure they glance over their shoulder if they are coming it to stop at the side of the piste to make sure they don't cut somebody off as they come down the piste margin, highlighting examples of good awareness by them, etc, but so far no complaints from the people I teach about that so hopefully all good.
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Quite liked the posters on the lift pylons in Meribel stating "respect the downhill skier" ... could be extended to all of the FIS code imo, I really think there are loads out there who have not got a clue about respecting the down hill skier, setting off without looking up the hill or looking up the hill when feeding onto a piste.
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@rob@rar, Thanks Rob, do you think it would help if say, for beginners groups there was a requirement to discuss it more.

Instructors are really the only contact most of us (hopefully) have with any sort of authority when skiing.

I know its on piste maps and in certain resorts on boards by the pass office but how much notice do non geek skiers like us take of it?
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@holidayloverxx, You're not "expected" to do anything apart from what you are already doing.
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yup - sometimes one member in a pack looks, then the rest will blindly follow (hence the term "lemmings" a few pages back).

as for poles, they often make people stand up tall, arms down by sides, lazy position, on the tails. in particular those that have probably had a maximum of 1 week of beginner lessons, and then declared themselves advanced intermidiot.

try a run without them, and the only way to ski is nice stance arms up, etc. get the average intermediot to try that (and even the total beginner) for a run or two, or any of those drills like looking through the window etc. and they will ski better and carve better than the run with poles. nice rounded turns rather than Z's.

of course practising using them properly is different.

then again a certain instructor (on this thread) has been known to steal only 1 pole from everyone and make you share it between both hands Twisted Evil (quite handy for that technique too)

all IMHO of course. others may disagree.
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Gilberts Fridge wrote:
@rob@rar, Thanks Rob, do you think it would help if say, for beginners groups there was a requirement to discuss it more.
As I understand it, there is no governing body (I think it is more accurate to say training and licensing body) which places requirements on instructors to teach a specific curriculum. I'd guess it's more relevant to employers of instructors to specify what and how their employees teach.

I don't teach beginners that often, but it seems to me that when they are trying to learn so many different, and potentially scary things, that going through a numerated lists of dos, donts, and responsibilities in a dry manner is perhaps not the most successful teaching strategy. But I fully agree that all of the things covered by the Skiers' Code should be explained and reinforced at appropriate times, and reminded of thereafter. Worth noting that nothing in the Skiers' Code seems to me to be anything more than common sense and common courtesy. Whether skiers and boarders share the slopes with common sense and common courtesy towards other people is perhaps more determined by their personality and the choices they make rater than whether they are familiar with a rather dryly written code featuring 10 points.
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andy wrote:
then again a certain instructor (on this thread) has been known to steal only 1 pole from everyone and make you share it between both hands Twisted Evil (quite handy for that technique too)
Ah, that's a great drill (when done in a safe manner on appropriate terrain wink ). If your colleague is working his group without poles it's also an opportunity to mix up all the pairs of poles parked by the top of the chairlift when you see them unattended. So many possibilities with ski pole drills...
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Zermattandchips wrote:
@holidayloverxx, You're not "expected" to do anything apart from what you are already doing.


yes I know that really, but who knows what the person behind "expects"
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rob@rar wrote:
dave_3 wrote:
I would like you to educate me on the correct procedure to pass a slower skier on a ski track.
If you can safely pass them then do so, if not pause for a short while until it is safe to pass with enough space to ensure you don't collide with them.

I generally aim to pass someone in front of me on the opposite side to the direction if they have just turned. So if they are about to start a turn to the right I will aim to pass them on the left. That way as you get close to them the gap between you is getting bigger not smaller. Passing people on cat tracks or very gentle pistes is a good test of awareness, anticipation and the ability to gently roll your skis from edge to edge. Most people who are turning will be skidding their skis a bit, or running on both inside edges in a small, subconscious snowplough. If you simple roll your skis from edge to edge rather than twist to turn you are going to have have a bit more speed than them so passing should not be difficult, but awareness that you might have to scrub off some speed, gently or quickly, in order to maintain enough of a gap between you and the skiers in front is important.


I'm not sure this really relates to the situation that many of us are discussing. I'm thinking about a flattish cat track where the majority of people are not turning regularly, just coasting gently along. The potential problem comes where someone's coasting speed is gently increasing and so, once in a while and totally unpredictably, they will switch from letting theior skis run straight to slamming in a turn across the track in order to scrub off some speed. They are entirely in their rights to do that and it's up to the skier behind to ensure there is no collision.
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
I'm not sure this really relates to the situation that many of us are discussing.
Sure, some travel in a straight'ish line, others change direction a bit more. I guess the point is chose a side to overtake which is going to give you the amount of space you require to pass them safely. If the person in front is turning a bit I think passing them at a point when they are turning away from you rather than towards you maximises that space.
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rob@rar wrote:
dode wrote:
Not helpful, esp. For a nervous skier.
This. I spend a bit of time with nervous skiers and they are way too concerned with what's behind them, and any unexpected noise (scraped skis or boards on ice, shouts, pole taps, etc) can freak them out completely. I think it is respectful to avoid this if possible. For me an important question is "what do you expect the skier in front of you to do with this information you are giving?" (which I am sure is mostly meant in a helpful manner). If the answer to that question is anything other than "nothing" then surely you are expecting the person in front to behave in a particular way to make it easier for you to ski in the manner you want, which to me seems to contradict your responsibility to the skier in front/downhill of you. If the answer is "nothing" what point is there in providing that information?


I fully understand that an unexpected noise can freak people out. We're all familiar with the shock coming from the sound of a snowboard going into 'scrape' mode just behind you. I'm equally familiar with the unpleasant shock of someone suddenly passing me within a couple of metres when I had no idea they were there. That's even worse when, as always seems to happen to me, I've just decided that I'm about to turn in that direction and sudden;t have to change my plans. Personally, I'd infinitely rather someone gives a couple of discrete taps of their poles earlier on. It's exactly the same as being a pedestrian in much of Europe where everyone cycles on the pavements. I'd rather they ring their bell as they approach than suddenly appear out of my blind spot.
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There's alot of talk on this thread about men coming up on other men from behind

On a serious note. It seems we have a lot of different opinions. But in the end they all boil down to different ways to stay safe. That can't be bad. If only we could get snowboarders to read this Laughing
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Something that's struck me throughout this thread is how little awareness I have of the way boarders use the slope as opposed to skiers. I reckon a lot of what would help skiers keep safe, especially beginners or nervous ones, is understanding the general motion of a boarder. I hadn't really considered the blind spots or why they sit where they do.
I hope to have a crack at it myself this year if we get enough snow locally to allow and I expect I'll have a couple more "aha!" type moments then too.
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Who changed the thread title and why?
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holidayloverxx wrote:
Who changed the thread title and why?
I don't know, but the video in the opening post has been deleted or made unavailable on Vimeo, presumably by the person who posted it, and the formatting on the first page is now a bit screwed up.
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HotDogger wrote:
Something that's struck me throughout this thread is how little awareness I have of the way boarders use the slope as opposed to skiers. I reckon a lot of what would help skiers keep safe, especially beginners or nervous ones, is understanding the general motion of a boarder. I hadn't really considered the blind spots or why they sit where they do.
I hope to have a crack at it myself this year if we get enough snow locally to allow and I expect I'll have a couple more "aha!" type moments then too.


Entirely true. Even after a while off a board I felt freakishly vulnerable my first hour boarding when on anything like a busy run, perhaps becasue I am acutely aware that there are people like Peter h about. I feel quite strongly that this a reason that all instructors should do some snowboarding so they are aware of the differences and can use it for safety education. You can understand snowboarders and telemarkers by watching and observing the lines they take of course but how many skiers can tell you whether snowboarders travelling at the same speed are similar in skill level or why one is more of a risk than the other? And of course there is the classic - Pass by traverse under a boarder on a toeside traverse and then be surprised he/she suddenly drops in on you? Not if you have any idea of biomechanics and why sneaking past in someone's blindspot is not a good idea.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Pass by traverse under a boarder on a toeside traverse and then be surprised he/she suddenly drops in on you?


Doesn't the uphill skier/boarder have to give way wink wink wink
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martinm wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Pass by traverse under a boarder on a toeside traverse and then be surprised he/she suddenly drops in on you?


Doesn't the uphill skier/boarder have to give way wink wink wink


Not if he has never seen you - you haven't completed a safe passing move.

I know you know but just for casual readers' edification.

On the plus side he has the prefect view of you if you choose to go above and pass on the toeside so why not do that skiers?
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
dode wrote:
Not helpful, esp. For a nervous skier.
This. I spend a bit of time with nervous skiers and they are way too concerned with what's behind them, and any unexpected noise (scraped skis or boards on ice, shouts, pole taps, etc) can freak them out completely. I think it is respectful to avoid this if possible. For me an important question is "what do you expect the skier in front of you to do with this information you are giving?" (which I am sure is mostly meant in a helpful manner). If the answer to that question is anything other than "nothing" then surely you are expecting the person in front to behave in a particular way to make it easier for you to ski in the manner you want, which to me seems to contradict your responsibility to the skier in front/downhill of you. If the answer is "nothing" what point is there in providing that information?


I fully understand that an unexpected noise can freak people out. We're all familiar with the shock coming from the sound of a snowboard going into 'scrape' mode just behind you. I'm equally familiar with the unpleasant shock of someone suddenly passing me within a couple of metres when I had no idea they were there. That's even worse when, as always seems to happen to me, I've just decided that I'm about to turn in that direction and sudden;t have to change my plans. Personally, I'd infinitely rather someone gives a couple of discrete taps of their poles earlier on. It's exactly the same as being a pedestrian in much of Europe where everyone cycles on the pavements. I'd rather they ring their bell as they approach than suddenly appear out of my blind spot.


I used to pole tap overtaking on cat tracks for that reason - with the sole expectation that the person in front would carry on doing their thing however they want, and wouldn’t be alarmed when I came past when safe to do so or they heard my edges.

After a few if these threads it became obvious that half the people on the people on the slopes understood it differently, rendering it pointless or even unhelpful. I think culture plays a part here too though, and in many places around the world it is far more acceptable than amongst Brits. Chaotic third world roads with a very different approach to lane ‘discipline’ spring to mind, and I think are probably a better analogy than UK roads; horns are used all the time simply to signify presence, and frankly it’s pretty helpful as a newbie scooter driver!

However these days I just whistle a song while zipping along cat tracks, which hopefully works just as well while being less confusing/stressful fir beginners.
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HotDogger wrote:
Something that's struck me throughout this thread is how little awareness I have of the way boarders use the slope as opposed to skiers.


Totally agree and I count myself one of those ignorant of how a boarder would move down the slope. Be very interesting to know more about a boarders movement to help understand the right path to take. Totally get the uphill skier and it shouldn't matter if you're planning but I was on some road runs last week so even giving max space when passing is only a few feet. Something to ask my boarder friends about me thinks
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HotDogger wrote:
Something that's struck me throughout this thread is how little awareness I have of the way boarders use the slope as opposed to skiers. I reckon a lot of what would help skiers keep safe, especially beginners or nervous ones, is understanding the general motion of a boarder. I hadn't really considered the blind spots or why they sit where they do.

Incidentally, what struck me, as a boarder, is that I didn't think the boarder in the OP's video did anything unexpected! So I think you're right, this seems to be as much about the OP not understanding how a boarder is likely to move.
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bicycle bells on ski poles, its simple.
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@rob@rar, Common sense would seem to be lacking in some cases.


Regarding the cat track skiing, the skier in front always has right of way, just because you have greater speed does not give you the right to overtake at will.

If you are skiing so close to them that a rapid change of direction from them will create a risk then you are at fault.

No amount of whistling, pole taping or bells or whatever noise you make give you the right of way. If you can't get passed the skier in front safely, take a chill pill, smile, and enjoy the slow tree lined glide to the next lift, for we were all that beginner or nervous skier at one point.
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Understanding boarders isn't rocket science. In the main it's thinking where their field of vision is. That plus appreciating they can turn in a smaller space/shorter time, might be prone to more flatland tricks like switching stance and are unlikely to be doing the eternal traverse turn traverse beloved of nervous skiers (the sideslip or falling leaf being the preferred ways of getting down pitches beyond their ability)
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@Gilberts Fridge, what if you can get past perfectly safe but don’t want to alarm them? Where I ski there are lots of good skiers who overtake each other with 30-50cm of room, and no-one cares because everyone knows everyone is a good skier so there’s trust all round. But there are plenty of skiers who poo-poo themselves if you come within 3-5 metres of them, and while they are certainly entitled to ski however they want, I’m not clear they are entitled to expect everyone else to slow down and pole the last half of the track because they don’t have the experience to not be scared when people pass safely but with soeed within a couple of metres if them.
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Quote:

Something that's struck me throughout this thread is how little awareness I have of the way boarders use the slope as opposed to skiers.


Don't want to be harsh but why? Surely you've watched them? Maybe I'm odd but on chairlifts I often watch what other skiers and boarders are doing below me. Apart from anything else it's a good way of improving your technique.
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clarky999 wrote:
@Gilberts Fridge, what if you can get past perfectly safe but don’t want to alarm them? Where I ski there are lots of good skiers who overtake each other with 30-50cm of room, and no-one cares because everyone knows everyone is a good skier so there’s trust all round. But there are plenty of skiers who poo-poo themselves if you come within 3-5 metres of them, and while they are certainly entitled to ski however they want, I’m not clear they are entitled to expect everyone else to slow down and pole the last half of the track because they don’t have the experience to not be scared when people pass safely but with soeed within a couple of metres if them.
I think that's an interesting question. I try to be respectful of other slope users in terms of space I can give them, but my priority is to pass safely or leave a bit of space at the side of the piste so they can pass me. That might not exactly coincide with how much space they think they need as they are skiing down the slope, so a bit of give 'n take can be required of all slope users. I also try to ski in a predictable manner, which is something I'll explain to new skiers I'm teaching, at the same time as explaining they have rights and responsibilities when observing the priority for the downhill skier.
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