 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm glad I didn't read the thread when it first appeared. Somehow, the tone of the title had me thinking "I bet this is another intolerant person moaning about behavior of others not to his liking".
Sad to find I was so close to the truth.
Pot calling kettle black aside, I do wonder how many slope users think the same way as the OP. THAT, would explain why the slopes are getting so much more dangerous.
Mind you, I've also heard something in the same vein by road users. I've been "advised" by well-meaning "friends" to drive on the passing lane "because there're fewer cars on that lane". 
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 28-01-19 22:33; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@mad for chelsea, I realise I'm probably asking for a slating myself now but I tend to film in the same manner and find it really comfortable.
I've also skied with just one pole when a mate mangled one of his on a chair lift and oddly found that quite difficult without the phone.
There's something about splitting my attention between the viewfinder and the actual piste that seems to improve my spacial awareness and balance. Plus I'm usually following another member/s of a group and sometimes they're snowboarders too! 
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@HotDogger, that's actually quite interesting. The only time I've ever skied holding a camera was following my wife down a very gentle nursery slope, which was obviously fine. I suspect that my pole planting is too engrained to feel comfortable doing it on anything steep-ish, but it's interesting that you found it so comfortable compared to skiing with a single pole...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I often ski without my poles as a drill, focus on my lower body and my dynamic balance. I am comfortable with it.
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| peter_h wrote: |
| This might provoke some discussion and I will no doubt get hung drawn and quartered. |
You should be hung, drawn and quartered for posting such a cr*p video 
Absolutely nothing wrong with the boarder dood.
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I agree with @Whitegold,
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Not a phrase you hear every day. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It is fairly clear from the OP's comments at the start of the thread that he never knew about the FIS rules. At least now he has been made aware of them and understands that it is every slope user's responsibility to familiarise themselves with them and abide by them. A good result.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I heart Whitegold. Wait what...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| gorilla wrote: |
Key point: the FIS code is mainly intended as a guide to not hitting other people while skiing. It is not drafted as legislation and, as such, it is impossible to use it to litigate who is in the right and who is in the wrong based on crappy go pro footage. That won't stop people trying.
The FIS code also does not include Gorilla's two master rules:
1. Don't be a dick and
2. People will make mistakes.
Rage mode instructor lady contravenes both of these. I can appreciate that being knocked over is upsetting but there is a difference between the an accident and negligence. Former rather than the latter applies here.
As others have pointed out, the only way to be safer is to ski defensively and with a large margin both for one's own error and the errors of others. There really isn't that much more to be said other than that the OP's video in the first post is very, very silly. |
As others have said, I think this post is spot on. However, I think there is an element to point #2 that some people miss. "People make mistakes" - That means that other people will make mistakes and you should take steps to ensure you don't fall fall of them but even more importantly, IMO, it means that you are also one of thos epeople who will sometimes make mistakes. If we can accept that we don't always behave/drive/ski perfectly and that we do sometimes muck up then it makes us a whole lot more tolerant of other people's errors.
.... Not that the snowboarder did make an error in the OP's video.
Looking at the full length video of the OPs run then I'd agree that it was pretty uneventful. It's generally fine to pass people at the distances he did although the passing speed was probably excessive for such close distances. I also thought that he popped over that roller at far too high a speed, although I do accept that the camera height was well below eye level and the OP might well have had better visibility. It's a little hard to tell from teh few clues available (shadows, camera movements etc.) but I'm not wholly convinced the OPs skiing ability is really good enough to be skiing withb a camera in one hand and both poles in the other.
If the OP had posted that video with the question "Am I a safe and considerate skier?" then I suspect the response would have been "Yes, not too bad". The issue was the intolerance of another skier's (quite reasonable) behaviour.
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Yes, people make mistakes, people lose control, but the issue being addressed here is one of attitude, the selfish/aggressive mentality that there is ever another piste user ahead who "a) should not be there, b) should not intersect my chosen path, c) should get TF out of my way, and d) will be at fault if I collide with them, and e) I am entitled to close-shave, clip, trip, or hit, by way of teaching them a lesson."
Thus, there is a need to continually counteract this mentality.
E.g. "a) Everyone ahead of you has priority (whether incompetent, inconsiderate, or insane), b) you must avoid the person ahead, c) do not consider it up to the person ahead to avoid you, and d) it is automatically your fault if you collide with the person ahead of you - not theirs."
The rare exceptions such as a skier landing immediately ahead of you (from a jump, cliff, chairlift, etc.) can be kept in the small print.
Similarly, defensive skiing techniques (being wary of, and alert for, incompetent, out of control, and/or selfish/aggressive skiers) come naturally with experience, but cannot be made too prominent or the selfish/aggressive skier will use them to deflect responsibility away from themselves on to others, e.g. "You didn't look up-slope before setting off, so it's your fault I sprayed snow all over you/collided with you!"
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You know it makes sense.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| ... Looking at the full length video of the OPs run then I'd agree that it was pretty uneventful. It's generally fine to pass people at the distances he did although the passing speed was probably excessive for such close distances. I also thought that he popped over that roller at far too high a speed, although I do accept that the camera height was well below eye level and the OP might well have had better visibility. It's a little hard to tell from teh few clues available (shadows, camera movements etc.) but I'm not wholly convinced the OPs skiing ability is really good enough to be skiing withb a camera in one hand and both poles in the other. ... |
What struck me from the full length video was the seeming lack of looking around, e.g. when merging with the other piste at around 2:45. Particularly given that the original complaint is about other people not looking around! You might expect turning a head to observe skiers approaching from left or right to give at least a little bit of camera wobble. Nothing obvious from the shadows either.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@crosbie, Only problem with your aspiration is that is you give the "no lookers" a free pass it becomes default behaviour and some pistes, particularly home runs and narrow cat tracks would become entirely gridlocked if everyone gave absolutely prudent safety margins to account for any dumb behaviour. Potentially a single group of beginners could hold up an entire mountainload of people at the end of the day if there are few pinch points.
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Poster: A snowHead
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My first reaction to the original post was to think that anyone holding a video camera cannot also be concentrating on skiing properly. Then I saw Graham Bell on Ski Sunday go down the Hahnenkamm holding poles in one hand and a camera in the other. But he's an exceptionally good skier and the piste was empty.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Jehu, I must admit I do find all the cameras and selfie sticks etc a bit annoying these days because like you, I wonder if they are concentrating properly. Not only that but for the most part the footage that subsequently appears on You Tube and similar is so damn boring.
The other day in Saalbach one guy overtook me on a narrow path (a blue run) did a little jump off the snow at the side and cut straight in front of me, I had to suddenly go around him and he was looking into the camera on his selfie stick the whole time as it was pointing towards him. I think he was oblivious to anyone being there as he was so engrossed in that camera.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @crosbie, Only problem with your aspiration is that is you give the "no lookers" a free pass it becomes default behaviour and some pistes, particularly home runs and narrow cat tracks would become entirely gridlocked if everyone gave absolutely prudent safety margins to account for any dumb behaviour. Potentially a single group of beginners could hold up an entire mountainload of people at the end of the day if there are few pinch points. |
One should always look up a piste before (re-)joining it.
That imprecation to defensive skiing still doesn't absolve the uphill skier of fault should they collide with someone who failed to look, i.e. they have the responsibility to stay clear of persons stood at the side of the piste in case they set off at any moment.
The skier has got to rid themselves of the idea that they are likely to be able to argue incompetence/fault on the part of the poor chap they collided at speed with. That is the wrong attitude.
The piste is indeed riddled with inexperienced, incompetent, inconsiderate, and insane skiers - all a priori innocent if ahead of you. That doesn't mean one can compromise the principle on the grounds that progress is consequently impeded. Better to have one's own progress moderated than risk terminating someone else's skiing forever.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
I haven't had time to read all comments, this guy looked like he had fallen & lost control before he gently slid into the instructor.
Whilst yes, you should ski in control at all times, does this mean falling is forbidden? ie the rules say ski in control, therefore losing control after falling over is not allowed therefore falling over is not allowed and you should be barred from the mountain if you do fall over? Only people that NEVER fall over should be allowed to ski? |
Yep and applying mad instuctor woman logic - if you can't ski on a black slope you should be on a green slope presumably you are declaring you can't ski on a black slope if you need a lesson to be there. hence she and her group disappear in a puff of logic and the guy slides into no one [/quote]
I bet the instructor is claiming her PPI?
I wonder if French daytime TV has adverts all summer long saying 'Injured by somebody else on the ski slopes?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wow
she must have been on the blob
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Far too long videoing to the left and right and not paying attention to what was ahead!
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@crosbie, But the FIS rules don't work if you assign one a higher level of importance than the others. Sheer common sense and self preservation as well as reflex reaction should mean no one is deliberately looking to have a collision with someone who breaks the rules. And if there was infinite space on slopes the rules would scarcely be an issue (though people would still find a way of colliding). But if you imagine a relatively busy run with faster traffic coming through what are your priorities? Mine are - do no harm to innocent parties, avoid harm to myself, people who self-endanger through not following the rules - I'll avoid them if it doesn't breach directives 1 & 2. I'm happy with that on moral grounds and suggest that eveyone who pretends they give every skier the space they might need to do whatever mad thing they might conceivably do within or outside the rules is a virtue signalling liar. And avoiding harm to myself means I'm not going to backmark a jam if at all possible as that exposes me to whatever nutters are hooning down behind me.
Let's just take an everyday example - gang of lemmings stand across 80% of the piste on the lemming ledge at the start of a steeper pitch. All traffic starts to go round them. Nervous nellie then stops in the remaining space. Do you
A stop until the lemmings bravely decide to commit to the extra 2 deg steeper slope,
B go through the practical gaps available probably at the edges of the piste.
Now an Lemming might suddenly and unaccountably reverse into the quite wide space they have left between them and the piste edge but on balance of probabilities it is unlikely. So are you a congestion enhancing saint or a pragmatic sinner?
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 29-01-19 19:08; edited 1 time in total
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I think this thread is mis-titled
Should be
Why are there so many idiots on snowHeads?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| essex wrote: |
| And while on the subject, please don't bother hollering at me from behind or tapping your poles. I'll still be following the rules, don't think you can dodge your responsibility as over taking skier that way. |
I'm a self-confessed pole tapper and I think there is an issue that some people misinterpret the spirit in which it is intended. I know this is a discussion we've had on SH a few times, but ...... When passing a slightly slower skier on a cat track I sometimes tap my poles. The message is absolutely NOT "get out of my way" or anything like that. It's much more "I'm pretty sure you aren't aware that you are about to be overtaken or that there is anyone behind you so I thought it would be polite to let you know so that you don't get that nasty shock of a skier appearing unexpectedly and that you think twice before making any sudden, unexpected moves". It certainly doesn't absolve the uphill skier of any responsibility it is just intended as a courtesy and a small way of marginally increasing safety for all. Think of it as the skiing equivalent of a polite cough.
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@foxtrotzulu,
given how opinions of pole tapping differ may be a polite cough would be better?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
c) reduce my speed to the point I can navigate one of the gaps safely or
d) nip off piste and avoid the log jam
If things are awkward I tend to wait until the downhill skier has JUST turned then nip past behind them. You have a couple of seconds before they can really turn back to your side.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
@Jehu, I must admit I do find all the cameras and selfie sticks etc a bit annoying these days because like you, I wonder if they are concentrating properly. Not only that but for the most part the footage that subsequently appears on You Tube and similar is so damn boring.
The other day in Saalbach one guy overtook me on a narrow path (a blue run) did a little jump off the snow at the side and cut straight in front of me, I had to suddenly go around him and he was looking into the camera on his selfie stick the whole time as it was pointing towards him. I think he was oblivious to anyone being there as he was so engrossed in that camera. |
There's a reason I tend to refer to them as "selfish sticks"...
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I prefer "wand of narcissism"
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You know it makes sense.
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| jedster wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes,
c) reduce my speed to the point I can navigate one of the gaps safely or
d) nip off piste and avoid the log jam
If things are awkward I tend to wait until the downhill skier has JUST turned then nip past behind them. You have a couple of seconds before they can really turn back to your side. |
Well yeah that's what I do in practice but you can't totally discount the possibility of the person you are passing suddenly flailing themselves backwards or diving into your path entirely. So you're a sinner too 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Mr.Egg, Don't be a twunt.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Dave of the Marmottes, the principle that you are at fault should you collide with the chap ahead, does not mean that there always (or even often) exists a risk free route down the piste.
In certain situations you have to choose between a medium risk trajectory (going for it) and a low risk one (waiting for a cluster to disperse/ski away before continuing). The risk is of you colliding - and being at fault.
If you collide with someone, you can't say "Sorry mate, but I only collided with you because I had to take the risk of doing so, in view of the fact I've paid for a lift pass, and do need to actually make some progress. Your injury is regrettable, but I suggest you complain to the resort for allowing too much uplift"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
I'm a self-confessed pole tapper... |
The pole tapping actually works reasonably well... if there's no one else on the cat track! Otherwise, there's just too much background noise for the light tapping sound to bring any focus early enough.
But if the cat track is deserted, there's no need to pass close, just go around the slow moving body with a lot of room to spare.
So, I only do it when I'm lazy, coming up towards someone going perfectly straight, and passing with a wide margin. The aim is, just in case, so he/she doesn't decide to change direction drastically because he/she thought there's no one else on that cat track! The pole tapping MAY add a little extra margin. Nothing else.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@crosbie, but if you jump onto the piste from behind a tree point blank in front of me I'm not at fault no matter what you believe. So sorry but we'll have to agree to disagree.
And we are probably an order of magnitude liwer fisk than most punters as we've thought about problems rather than just engaged joliday brain.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, people entering the piste from off-piste (even if not far off the piste) without looking really drive me up the wall. I'm happy to avoid everyone ahead, but people jumping onto the piste without warning and then stopping will get, at the least, a fine tuition in the use of Anglo-Saxon. It's happened twice in the last week and I cannot understand the stupidity.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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People returning to piste from off-piste is the equivalent of people starting from stationary, only worse. Because when you SEE someone not moving, you can plan on them starting to move. But if you can't even see them, you wouldn't be able to.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
@crosbie, but if you jump onto the piste from behind a tree point blank in front of me I'm not at fault no matter what you believe. So sorry but we'll have to agree to disagree.
And we are probably an order of magnitude liwer fisk than most punters as we've thought about problems rather than just engaged joliday brain. |
I've already made it pretty clear that there are exceptions, e.g. if someone lands point blank in front of you, of course you are not at fault.
And yes, it's not the attitude of the experienced, wiser skier that's the issue, but that of the young turk brimming with power and testosterone, and the predisposition to consider the piste ahead of them their territory.
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| abc wrote: |
| People returning to piste from off-piste is the equivalent of people starting from stationary, only worse. ... |
+1
My closest accidents in recent years have been from such people. They see an empty piste ahead of them, and think they can just jump on at high speed without looking, completely ignoring the (virtual) "give way" sign that runs along the edge of the piste.
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The issue of passing people on cat tracks is a good one. Most people reading this have at some point had to overtake people on these tracks. So if your passing a slower skier and stick to the other side of the track and they take a sharp turn into you then it's your fault for passing?
I can recollect a few occasions where I've been sqeezed up against a wall of snow and rock. These days I just cough
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pole tapping is both pointless and rude. Why some people insist on doing it, and trying to justify it, is beyond me. It is literally impossible to interpret. And when my kids were small they found it both confusing and intimidating. Now, if I see someone doing it anywhere near small kids I intervene. And not gently. Please just stop doing it. No-one appreciates it at all.
I also find it interesting how many people try and find wriggle room around the FIS rules. I have always suspected that the nit-pickers and nay sayers have (had) many close calls and probably a few collisions themselves. I would be very interested to hear from those saying rules are simply for guidance", don't have any legal standing, there are exceptions, etc etc. How many of you have never crashed into someone? I never have, and ski 5+ weeks in the alps every year plus whenever I can in Scotland. And I mean never. The only incidents I have had have been out of control people crashing into me, and it has been pretty clear there was an over-estimation of ability. I have had to slam the breaks on, nip off the piste, change direction abruptly when something unexpected happens in front of me. But then I always follow the rules. And they are rules. And they do indeed have some legal standing (more so in some places than others).
I await the reassurance that none of you who are nit-picking and obfuscating have never crashed into anyone.
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| dave_3 wrote: |
The issue of passing people on cat tracks is a good one. Most people reading this have at some point had to overtake people on these tracks. So if your passing a slower skier and stick to the other side of the track and they take a sharp turn into you then it's your fault for passing?
I can recollect a few occasions where I've been sqeezed up against a wall of snow and rock. These days I just cough |
Yes if course I have overtaken people on a cat track. No, I have never come even close to hitting someone. Even when they make a sharp turn. Yes it would be your fault, not for passing but for not making allowance for the downhill skier to make any voluntary or involuntary movement. It is actually very simple. If you have space and the tecnical skiing ability to pass someone safely you should do so. If you lack either, you should not. By default any close shave or indeed collision you have when doing so is because you lacked one or the other (or both). Safer for all of us if people could just accept that and not make excuses.
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FAQ
