 Poster: A snowHead
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@endoman, it did seem that she made it a far bigger deal than it needed to be. I think she needs to watch her temper.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| wills_h wrote: |
| You know, if at the start of your day you meet a dick head, it's unfortunate and can be annoying, if, however you then continue to meet dick heads all day, you might need to question, actually who is the dick head here? |
+1
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Deleted as post duplicated
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 28-01-19 11:37; edited 1 time in total
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We wouldn't get much skiing done if every time there was a minor collision " every skier or witness" had to share details, report to rescue services and police. Do you think that was appropriate here? He must have apologised a dozen times instantly. In two languages. Depends what you define as an " accident" Instructor simply tumbled, and was well enough to get up, try to take off the other blokes ski, and whack him with her ski pole.
I already said he shouldn't have skied into her, but her position made that more likely.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| martinm wrote: |
| thecramps wrote: |
@peter_h,  The boarder did nothing wrong, in fact he manourvered so his blind side faced downhill. I think your being intolerant and a tad grumpy because you had to deviate your direction slightly. Sorry, I cannot agree with you on this example. |
+1.
A few seconds earlier video may be useful too - it's almost as if you're trying to hide the fact that the boarder was moving and wasn't just starting..... |
Just watched the whole video, Red run #61. There are some moments from about 1:50 that are interesting.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 28-01-19 11:40; edited 1 time in total
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While the skier is wrong for causing the accident and skiing off, I do not understand what the instructor seeks to gain by acting in such an aggressive manner.
The instructor's aggression was there from the get go, well before the guy skied off.
Deliberately hitting somebody with a ski pole is not OK, also it sets an awful example for her class.
It's pretty selective to cite 9 & 10, and completely ignore rule 1 - Respect for others.
Clearly she is not injured (no first aid required), so there is no medical bill or insurance issue (so no civil or criminal liability), but she should report the incident to her employer the ESF.
Calmly accepting his apology, confirming that neither party is injured, and explaining why she needs the skiers details would be a good starting point, and more likely to get the guy's name and address, rather than assaulting, verbally abusing and then pursuing him.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
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@endoman, I agree, sort of. Minor collisions are normally dealt with by an apology and mutual agreement that no-one was hurt, in which case there is no need to share details etc as all parties agree it is unnecessary. Here, however, there was a collision and one party requested details. The other party did not provide and then fled the scene. And it is entirely possible that the instructor could be more injured than she seems. Regardless I do not think it for the skier who crashed into her to make that judgement, details were requested and he is required to provide them.
And I agree with you her position did make it more likely that someone might crash into her. Does not excuse it though, and I would say a pretty dismal level of skiing skill was demonstrated by the guy that crashed into her. But I as I said I agree with you, if there was no good reason for her to have her entire class standing in the middle like that it was inconsiderate at best.
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The instructor had stopped her class at the side of a very wide piste (nevertheless allowing a gap for any out of control skiers who had to ski between the group and the piste edge). It is only the camera angle that creates the illusion that the group was in the middle of the piste.
So, a pretty much perfect ESF assembly, even with the instructor shielding the rest of the group from out of control skiers.
It is amazing how many will still side with the person who collided into a well positioned, stationary group of skiers.
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Two other people were passing on the short side, and the colliding skier was also trying to do the same, hence the gap was pretty inviting.
The conversation should have concluded after " Sorry sorry sorry " " ok"
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@WindOfChange, I agree a more calm approach would have been more effective (and pleasant!). But I can also understand being annoyed when you are taken out like this and the skier who crashed into her could also have defused the situation better by taking skis off, and engaging with the instructor rather than just trying to get away.
It might be that the protective instinct was the root cause of her reaction. I have certainly felt this when a speeding boarder crashed into my 8 year old who was making very predictable progress down the slope (he is highly competent). In some ways I am not proud of my reaction but in some ways it is understandable. The boarder fled the scene, but after checking my kid was OK and leaving him to the succour of my wife I caught up with him in the lift queue by which time I was fuming at the sheer arrogance made worse when he refused to give me his name and address. Sorry to say but that arrogance was very quickly knocked out of him. Had he stayed, helped make sure everyone was OK, and engaged with us that would probably have been the end of it. It was stupid and not intentional and stupidity is easy to forgive.
It might also be that she simply has a very bad temper!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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She could have definitely acted more calmly but still conveyed her annoyance. She could have said after his profuse apologies “thanks, I’m ok but watch where you’re going in future, you could have hit one of my kids down’
That way he would have been ‘told off’ a bit and that would have been the end of the matter. And maybe make it less likely to happen in the future. Now he just thinks she’s a crazy mad woman.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
She could have definitely acted more calmly but still conveyed her annoyance. She could have said after his profuse apologies “thanks, I’m ok but watch where you’re going in future, you could have hit one of my kids down’
That way he would have been ‘told off’ a bit and that would have been the end of the matter. And maybe make it less likely to happen in the future. Now he just thinks she’s a crazy mad woman. |
Maybe. But maybe he will assume that all ESF instructors are crazy mad (not a bad assumption!) and be extra careful around ski school classes which cannot be a bad thing.
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| crosbie wrote: |
| The instructor had stopped her class at the side of a very wide piste (nevertheless allowing a gap for any out of control skiers who had to ski between the group and the piste edge). It is only the camera angle that creates the illusion that the group was in the middle of the piste. |
No, that was far away from the side of the piste and, assuming she was the first to ski and find a place to stop, it wasn't the best choice of place to stop. Nevertheless, she didn't deserve to be run into and the guy is at fault clearly. But, she went a bit OTT with the physical retaliation and should learn to keep a cool head. Having been 'assaulted' the apologising guy should have stopped apologising. This is why I stop behind pylons and trees and other groups of people.
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You know it makes sense.
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@zikomo, true, I think he will remember that incident for a long time and will most likely give them a wide berth! So maybe although she was a bit OTT he might adjust his behaviour somewhat.
She should be careful too with that temper, imagine if she’d started going like that at someone who wasn’t scared of her! It could have really escalated.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@zikomo,
I see your point on this but her reaction was so OTT that I think it is understandable that anyone would want to get some distance from her.
Clearly he made a right horlicks of hitting her. I also wouldn't criticise her too much for where she stopped the class - there was plenty of room to avoid them. But I didn't see any evidence that the skier was being reckless and he apologised. She made far too much of it.
I do appreciate though that if your livelihood depends on your knees and you have no doubt seen cruciates blown in low speed falls your tolerance for being taken out may be very small.
Getting back to the OP, I hope he has found the discussion of the code educational. I think he genuinely didn't know the rules and now he does.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| zikomo wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, Ever heard of the FIS code?
9: Assistance
At accidents every skier is duty-bound to assist.
Commentary: It is a cardinal principle for all sportsmen that they should render assistance following an accident, independant of any legal obligation to do so. Immediate first-aid should be given, the appropriate authorities allerted and the place of the accident marked to warn other skiers. FIS hopes that hopes that a hit-and-run offence in skiing will incur a criminal conviction similar to a hit-and-run offence on the road and that equivalent penalties will be imposed by all countries where such legislation is not already in force.
10: Identification
Every skier or witness, whether a responsible party or not, must exchange names and addresses following an accident.
Commentary: Witnesses are of great importance in establishing a full and proper report of an accident, and therefore everybody must consider that it is his duty as a responsible person to provide information as a witness. Reports of the rescue service and of the police as well as photographs are of considerable assistance in determining civil and criminal liability. |
Sorry and your point is? How many collisions get reported? I doubt it is even 1% and I suspect assorted fuzz would get pretty pissed off if people did more reguarly. I'd definitey have avoided giving the angry instructor woman my ID because she wasn't authority (no matter how much she thought the ESF uniform gave her superpowers) and you couldn't predict what she would have done with it.
& yeah I don't stop and give my name and address for every piste collision I see as a witness, it would be hard to get any skiing in. If resorts cared they could emply teams of professional witnesses/safety coaches.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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oh - and to answer the thread title - because a small but significant proportion of the population are idiots.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Skiing is a somewhat bizarre sport, where thousands of people are hauled up a mountain, so they can slide down again, often in icy conditions and bad visibility.
I suspect that a significant percentage are one week, Intermediate skiers and beginners.....this is all a recipe for accidents and minor collisions. Given this obviously problematic environment, for the most part, a tolerant and pragmatic approach is the wisest path to take....especially as most of us have, at one time or another, been the cause of a minor mishap.
The situation is very different, where people are recklessly and needlessly skiing in a way that is overly dangerous......even if a collision (or near miss) caused by them, turns out to be minor.
In the case of the Instructor, IMO. she was right to give the person a stern talking to....but because she had lost her temper, took it a bit too far.
"Reasonable Action", taking into consideration the speed/attitude/behaviour/reaction of the person causing the accident, combined with the seriousness of it, should determine how to react. Overreaction, due to loss of one's temper, is seldom helpful...and how often are we, in part, slightly responsible?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, @Old Fartbag,
DOTM up to a point Lord Copper.
I lost a tooth (a long story which I posted a few years ago) to a face blow from an aggressive guy who was trying to ski off as quickly as possible having taken out my 4 year old son in a high speed impact which was the guy’s fault (excessive speed into a junction with a warning sign ‘pistes crossing’). Armour and helmet saved my son from serious injury - but if he had had a spinal injury or head injury, which would have been entirely possible given the energy of the impact (he was thrown into the air, and span around before hitting the ground - horrible to see). The guy tried to leave as quickly as possible, and in that context I wanted his name and address. Which he lied about. He hit me first though, when I picked up one of his skis and walked back to my son, who was being tended by a large group including my partner, a pisteur and an instructor friend.
We got his address in the long run.
The implant I needed two years later cost nearly 2000 gbp. Cracked root to a perfectly good tooth.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| peter_h wrote: |
There is a lot to be said for getting to the ski lift the instant it opens and packing it up after a few hours  |
Yeah you're deliberately not getting it now are you?
What you say here is true. It will be quieter and groomed pistes likely to be in better condition for people whose ability doesn't allow them to have fun in other conditions (although they might at certain times in certain locations be bulletproof refrozen nightmares). But it still won't give you licence to hoon around with total abandon. There are still other people around and even in runs with almost no one around I have seen the only 2 skiers collide.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, spot on
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@valais2, Yes absolutely - in a potentially serious injury collision absolutely. But without on the spot mtn cops it's quite hard civilian to civilian to demand details and those that know themsleves to be in the wrong may well make every effort to avoid giving them. There are numerous sHs and associates who have been victims of hit n runs including broken necks etc. I just think a pragmatic expectation needs to be you may be a victim and there is no guarantee thatthe perp will even be caught less still face consequences of their actions.
PS did teh dude end up paying for yoru dental work? Assault and all that.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Reaasuringly, OP is a pilot.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 28-01-19 14:02; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| peter_h wrote: |
(2) a slope user who is MOVING (no matter how slowly) does not have to look uphill before moving
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I'm not engaging in this discussion, I think its all been said, except to say that when I watched my helmet GoPro footage back from last year, I realised how often i check uphill especially when traversing.
I obviously don't trust other slope users one little bit!
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| thecramps wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, Reaasuringly, he is a pilot. |
How did that work out for Sala and the helski customers in La Thuile?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Natch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| valais2 wrote: |
| The implant I needed two years later cost nearly 2000 gbp. Cracked root to a perfectly good tooth. |
I always think of this when seeing people in film or video hit each other.
Hit me hard enough to damage my very expensive dentistry and you'll be looking at significantly more than a couple of grand to fix any damage. Good luck with that, my lawyers are expensive too..
One reason helmet mount GoPro is useless to me is precisely because my head is constantly looking around.
--
The lady instructor lost her rag, not very professional and no way to deal with anyone. I'd recommend more training, although not on a race course.
Clearly there was no injury, and she was attempting to intimidate the other party with her aggressive demands.
I would have stopped apologising, pointed out that I'd already done that, and asked if there was any injury of damage.
As there manifestly was not I wold decline to give my details.
If she insisted, I'd ask for her own details and those of her class.
It's nonsense.
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| peter_h wrote: |
This might provoke some discussion and I will no doubt get hung drawn and quartered.
https://vimeo.com/312773796
And I could have got much harder hitting (no pun intended) videos.
My understanding, from a number of skiers, is that a skier or snowboarder can do absolutely anything on the slope and if somebody who was upslope hits them, it is the latter's fault 100%.
That is somewhat consistent with team sports, where if a rugby player breaks somebody's neck he is not liable provided he was playing "within the rules of the game".
In car driving you have the well known similar rule.
But obviously in all these things you could create situations where you injure somebody while not being liable. If you are on the M25 and jump on the brakes, just for a laugh, you will get away with it, while perhaps killing many people.
This is why skiers (and particularly snowboarders who are by far the worst problem - partly because they tend to be young and care-free and partly because with two legs strapped together you can do much more sudden directional changes) need to look upslope before. Snowboarders also have a tendency to sit on the slope, especially just after a hill because it is easier to sit on a slope.
Curiously, the title of this forum section says: just remember the skiers' code though: look uphill before you take off and don't sit in the middle of it! which is completely the opposite of what all skiers I asked have told me. |
there are unfortunately lots of idiots on the slopes, however I'd say that this snowboarder wasn't one of them. There was lots of space and he was making a turn after reaching the edge of the piste, and you were also not an idiot, you were going at a reasonable speed to be able to control your decent and adjust is someone turns ahead of you, although I would have said that his turn was entirely predictable.
Having read all the rules I'd agree with most of the comments on here, we all ski to the conditions and that includes how busy the slopes are. If its busy I won't be making long sweeping turns, nor going too fast, I try to be as predictable as possible and I also look uphill on a turn, especially on the faster sections, actually I do this on the faster sections even if its quite on the slope.
On a quiet blue run, like that, I'd've probably done the same as the boarder as it wasn't steep or busy, and there was loads of room for people to pass.
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You know it makes sense.
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IMHO there are too many people that believe in gap theory - that a space they have identified to ski through will either:
1. Become vacant at the right time based on how people are skiing in front of them
2. Remain vacant based on how people are skiing in front of them
... and don't have a plan B.
My personal opinion is that despite downhill skiers having the right of way I try very hard to make sure that if I am that skier I don't:
1. Pull out random turns
2. Suddenly cut across a piste
3. Stop anywhere where I think someone might perceive a potential gap nearby
I particularly hate the runs back to resorts in the late afternoon where all of sudden there is a coming together of good skiers and bad skiers, half of them tired after a long day, on iffy snow
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Even if I am moving I will still check uphill if I am going to make an aggressive move in one direction or another. After 100+ weeks I'm pretty competent on anything and capable of skiing quite fast and in control but nevertheless I am always aware that there may potentially be someone uphill going faster. Years of cycling means that it's ingrained in me to be honest.
I'd rather not be lying on the slope after a collision thinking "At least I was in the right"
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm not sure on some slopes I even believe people are consciously planning on gaps and am included to believe that they jsut rely on some sort of benign entropy trusting that no -one will be stupid enough to ski into someone else.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| @peter_h, why would you ski into someone who has overtaken you then slowed down unless you're an out of control twonk who cannot change direction and/or speed themselves? Or perhaps blind? |
Just picking up on this - it seems unlikely but PEOPLE
It has almost happened to me twice in the last 2 years
Exhibit 1, pootling down a gentle piste on La Tsoumaz side of Verbier scoping the off piste. Tamara and Arabella cruise past me. Tamara for some reason then slows so Arabella anchors on directly in my path to see what she is doing. All within a second or so.
Exhibit 2, Madonna di C. Milking some pushed off sugar down the side of a piste getting near to the bottom. Racer boy (20 something) on his FIS SL hammers past on the narrow side then immediately anchors on directly in front of me. No idea why unless he fancied getting bulldozed by a large lump.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, regret no....no payment...unfortunately advised that too much time between incident and later abcess, lawyers would have argued other cause possible. The evening of that original day, I was on the night run of the piste bashers, and Jean-Paul said ‘...what have you been doing? Your cheek is HUGE...’. And it was. Big swelling which went down after a few days, but also big underlying damage which surfaced a lot later....
...I learned a lot from the incident. I was calm and collected throughout, and laughed when he hit me, which entirely took the wind out of his sails. I said ‘carry on like that and you’ll wind up in prison pretty quickly...’ - not least since I was far more concerned about VaiasGrom than about myself.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Certainly there are plenty of idiots on the slopes, but the snowboarder in the original vid isn't one of them. As far as I can see he doesn't even really change direction with his turn? So really there would be absolutely no excuse for an uphill skier to get even close to him given how wide and empty the slope is. I think this point has been sufficiently made, and if Peter still isn't getting it, then he really doesn't want to. FWIW, I'm a reasonable skier (20-odd weeks, confident on reds, ok on blacks but not always pretty  ), and I know I'd benefit from more instruction, but I'm happy with where I'm at. While I love hitting first lifts and getting empty slopes and great conditions first up, I'll also happily ski until the lifts close (more or less - with a proper lunch thrown in): Sure, I'm not that keen on the resort runs at the end of the day with too many skiers who are either tired or not very good, but equally I know that I'm good enough to be in control of what I'm doing, and through experience I know how to ski to minimise risks in those conditions.
In general, I think all competent, reasonably experienced skiers will generally try to ski in such a way as to minimise risks to themselves (and of course, others). As others have said, being in the right won't make the pain any less. That may mean at times keeping an eye on what's going on uphill when it's safe to do so. The "downhill skier has priority" is a sensible rule (and really the only possible rule), but like all such, only stays sensible if it's not followed completely blindly in all circumstances. Arguably the most important FIS rule is the first one, which states "A skier or snowboarder must behave in such a way that he does not endanger or prejudice others." Now obviously this is a very general principle, but still useful. For instance, turning abruptly across a narrow, busy cat-track, without checking first to see if it's safe, would IMO contravene this rule. Certainly the skier who skis uphill into Weathercam on his vid is clearly a danger to Weathercam.
So basically, while technically as the downhill skier you may have the right to be a bit of a pr*ck, you should try not to.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| valais2 wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, @Old Fartbag,
DOTM up to a point Lord Copper.
I lost a tooth (a long story which I posted a few years ago) to a face blow from an aggressive guy who was trying to ski off as quickly as possible having taken out my 4 year old son in a high speed impact which was the guy’s fault (excessive speed into a junction with a warning sign ‘pistes crossing’). Armour and helmet saved my son from serious injury - but if he had had a spinal injury or head injury, which would have been entirely possible given the energy of the impact (he was thrown into the air, and span around before hitting the ground - horrible to see). The guy tried to leave as quickly as possible, and in that context I wanted his name and address. Which he lied about. He hit me first though, when I picked up one of his skis and walked back to my son, who was being tended by a large group including my partner, a pisteur and an instructor friend.
We got his address in the long run.
The implant I needed two years later cost nearly 2000 gbp. Cracked root to a perfectly good tooth. |
I'm not familiar with that acronym, so not sure whether you are agreeing or not....but just to be clear, I have no time for the sort of behaviour you describe (and you have my sympathy that you had to go through it). I hoped that I'd made my position clear (re reckless/selfish skiing), in my previous post.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 28-01-19 14:32; edited 1 time in total
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| valais2 wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, regret no....no payment...unfortunately advised that too much time between incident and later abcess, lawyers would have argued other cause possible. The evening of that original day, I was on the night run of the piste bashers, and Jean-Paul said ‘...what have you been doing? Your cheek is HUGE...’. And it was. Big swelling which went down after a few days, but also big underlying damage which surfaced a lot later....
...I learned a lot from the incident. I was calm and collected throughout, and laughed when he hit me, which entirely took the wind out of his sails. I said ‘carry on like that and you’ll wind up in prison pretty quickly...’ - not least since I was far more concerned about VaiasGrom than about myself. |
Lol- I once got head butted by a moron old enough to be my Dad at a ski resort. There was a certain amount of childish banter going on to be fair, but this guy just lost his mind. I was about 24, had just finished military training, was boxing etc, and just looked at him askance with a bloody nose! He then had the gall to try to shake my hand and say "I'm offering you the hand of peace". To which I replied, "no thank you, we'll be calling the police actually".
He then made a dash for the car park, and I followed him, wrote down his registration, and went straight to the police station. They showed up at his house later for 'discussions'!
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I am becoming more of a fan of downloading on a lift at the end of the ski day!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Key point: the FIS code is mainly intended as a guide to not hitting other people while skiing. It is not drafted as legislation and, as such, it is impossible to use it to litigate who is in the right and who is in the wrong based on crappy go pro footage. That won't stop people trying.
The FIS code also does not include Gorilla's two master rules:
1. Don't be a dick and
2. People will make mistakes.
Rage mode instructor lady contravenes both of these. I can appreciate that being knocked over is upsetting but there is a difference between the an accident and negligence. Former rather than the latter applies here.
As others have pointed out, the only way to be safer is to ski defensively and with a large margin both for one's own error and the errors of others. There really isn't that much more to be said other than that the OP's video in the first post is very, very silly.
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@Old Fartbag, DOTM = Dave of the Marmottes
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FAQ
