So I went for a private lesson in the morning to work on my parallel turns.
I was instructed to keep my upper body upright over my downhill ski, facing down the fall line. Instructor said that my shoulders should always be facing square down the fall line, and that the lower body should feel detached from the upper body. One drill that he got me doing, was to hold my poles up by their middle, and make a "picture frame" always focussing on an object down the hill. It felt different from how I normally ski, but it didn't feel wrong. The instructor said that he noticed my turns looked much better when doing the drill.
Then I went and had a group lesson after lunch. The instructor there told us something a little different. He said that the upper body should be generally facing the direction of the skis, but slightly skewed down the fall line (not facing completely). He emphasised leaning over the outside ski by dipping the downhill shoulder, so that the imaginary line made between my two shoulders will always be parallel to the aspect of the slope.
The second method felt very unnatural, and I found myself leaning back more in my boots, which caused massive pains in my thighs. Also it felt as though my ass was sticking out in silly directions, and everything felt a little more confusing. Although this might be from not having practiced this method before.
Any tips? I have been told by another skiing friend, that the first method is a very American/Canadian method, where as the second method is taught in Europe. Thoughts?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Keeping your upper body facing down the falline will produce a pivot at the start of your turns. Yes, that prompt is pervasively parroted over here, to my great disappointment. It creates habitual pivoters. There's are times and places when pivoting is desirable and suitable, but those times are in the minority of most peoples time on the slopes. Following the mantra of shoulders facing down the falline quickly gets students onto steeper terrain, because they auto pivot to control speed and escape the falline, but they then also find themselves pivoting on greens and blues too, where there's little need to do it. Sad.
To eliminate the pivot, use only the amount of counter that's necessary through the turn, then allow that counter to unwind and body to square up with your skis as you transition into the new turn. Squaring up eliminates the mid body torque that accounts for the auto pivot when keeping the shoulders facing downhill. The skis will thus just roll from the uphill edges to the downhill edges and reengage, minus the twisting pivot downhill. The result; a cleanly initiated carved or steered turn, pivot free.
Angulation need only be done in the amount needed to maintain primary balance on the outside ski. If you exaggerate it it's going to feel weird. If you weren't priorly angulating enough, and too much weight was falling onto your inside ski, even angulating properly may feel weird. If thats the case, hang with it until it feels normal. Do some inside ski lifting drills, you'll quickly learn if you're angulating enough or not, and how much angulation is actually needed to perform this excellent balance state feedback task.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FastMan, can you please explain "pivoting" a little more and how facing down the fall line produces a pivot. Also, is your website OK? Clicking on the link in your signature and on links in my browser history gives a mix of "Index of /", "403 Forbidden" and "404 Not Found" responses. I was hoping to check your skiing glossary.
yes, I wondered that the other day - couldn't get it. How nice to have a thread about skiing!!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I am also a little confused about the explanation. By pivoting do you mean that turns become more of a "Z" than a proper "S"?
If so I think I get it.
Trying to consistently face down the fall line will pivot the skis sharply, thus spending less time with your skis facing down the fall line. Which I suppose would be beneficial on steep terrain where you want to control speed. But not on more forgiving terrain where you would like to lengthen a turn and steer your ski tips through a full turn?
So then would it be fair to summarise that when you want to do short turns or steep controlled turns, you would emphasise more of a "upper body facing the fall line" position at all times, and when wanting to lengthen turns on mellow terrain and carve a little more, it is more beneficial to keep your body in that "C" position bending at the hips and letting your ski tips come around more gradually?
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zarb wrote:
Any tips? I have been told by another skiing friend, that the first method is a very American/Canadian method, where as the second method is taught in Europe. Thoughts?
It depends on what size turn you're doing. If you are making short radius turns so you are travelling more of less directly down the fall line you will probably want to keep your upper body facing closer to your direction of travel (ie, down the hill). Longer radius turns and you will probably want your upper body closer to the direction of your skis.
What you want to develop is the ability to control what your upper body is doing (some instructors might talk about "separation") while you are making your turns rather than trying to adopt a particular upper body position for every turn you make. Sometimes having a very stable upper body which faces down the hill is important, other times allowing your upper body to turn with your skis is important.
After all it is free
After all it is free
zarb, you are just learning to parrallel turn.. so don't need too much science speak here...
The first excercise is great for getting you to understand that you need to be able to have your upper body do something and your lower something else. It also over emphasizes this and gets you 'going'.
The second excercise is much more relevent for developing your turns properly and is the position you will use more regularly when skiing naturally.
This position is drummed into all teachers and pupils who are part of the Austrian system - we call it the Alpinesfahverhalten (Alpine basic position).
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Sorry flangesax, just to clarify. By second exercise you mean the one where you face the direction of your skis (but slightly downhill), and your downhill shoulder angled down the slope and over your downhill ski with your hips stuck uphill?
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zarb, yep
That is a classic description of the Alpine basic position.
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zarb, my advice would be to think about how you are steering your turns (by thinking "from the feet up") rather than getting too focused on particular body shapes.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I think rob@rar, has summed it up nicely
zarb, with regards to it being a European/US style teaching I'm afraid I'd have to disagree as I was taught the first method way back in the 70's in Switzerland, I think it's more to do with the introduction of carving skis, and the way we turn, with old straight skis you didn't make the wide sweeping turns and they were also harder to turn so the shoulders facing down the fall line works well as it helps initiate the turn, with carving skis you need a lot less effort to initiate the turn so if you use the first method the skis may well be constantly trying to turn, so you use the second method, this works fine on wide sweeping red and blue runs with plenty of room for turns, but on a steeper or narrower run you may want to put in turns that are shorter than the natural turn radius of the skis so you go back to the first method.
My thinking is that it is better to know as many techniques as possible because you never know when you might need them, this is why when I go skiing with friends I try to pass on a few tips that instructors rarely teach these days such as forward and back sideslips and stationary kick turns on a steep slope
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Neither's wrong, rob & flangesax have the best lay explanations.
Part of the problem when having lessons is that it's a bit easy to fall into semantic traps -when an instructor says "always" they almost always don't actually mean "always". They might mean "always for this particualr type of turn at this sort of speed".
If in doubt think of competition - slalom racers will often keep upper body pretty square to the fall-line, downhillers will be following their line of travel more closely.
Re the un natturalness that's due to you not being in a balanced palce on your skis rather than specifically what your upper body is doing.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've downloaded the free BASS Ski PDF and am having a look through that and the accompanying videos. Some good stuff in there. Really puts the focus more on what is going on with the ball of your foot and balance on the sweet spot rather than what your upper body is doing. Ill go through some of the drills there and see where it takes me!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Adrian wrote:
FastMan, can you please explain "pivoting" a little more and how facing down the fall line produces a pivot. Also, is your website OK? Clicking on the link in your signature and on links in my browser history gives a mix of "Index of /", "403 Forbidden" and "404 Not Found" responses. I was hoping to check your skiing glossary.
Pivoting, almost on the spot, bringing your skis around very quickly, rather than drawing the turn out in a long carve. If you keep your torso pointing down the fall-line, then as you finish your turn, skis pointing across the fall-line, you could consider your torso as being 'wound up,' a bit like a spring. Release the skis, and your legs/feet/skis will want to swing back around to line up with your torso again (so everything will be pointing down the fall-line), effectively doing the first half of the turn for you. Very efficient, especially on steep slopes.
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Quote:
I try to pass on a few tips that instructors rarely teach these days such as forward and back sideslips
loads of that in Fastman's videos - and I've done them with him on the hill, too. A very good exercise to do when waiting for companions who are faffing around.
Quote:
Very efficient, especially on steep slopes.
Absolutely, and I struggle with effective pivot turns. Getting the skis round really fast, with the right sort of pole plant and some unweighting - there's a time and a place for pivots. Again, Fastman does "pivot side slip" exercises which are very helpful (and another good thing to do when people are faffing.....). I think my problem is I'm not good at getting the skis absolutely flat on the snow, so edges do tend to catch!
I was taught that "always face the valley" position when I started skiing in Norway - but that was half a century ago and the skis were up to finger tip height, with arm stretched above your head!
How can I have been skiing for half a century and still not be very good at it?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
pam w, 'cos you spend too much time on here!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sorry - website had a small problem... hopefully back in action now...
FastMan, can you please explain "pivoting" a little more and how facing down the fall line produces a pivot. Also, is your website OK? Clicking on the link in your signature and on links in my browser history gives a mix of "Index of /", "403 Forbidden" and "404 Not Found" responses. I was hoping to check your skiing glossary.
Hi, Adrian. My "Your Ski Coach" website is back online. Apple, our host, decided to quit providing hosting services, so we had to switch to a new one. We were down for a bit while we sorted it out. Thanks for asking.
Pivoting is simply the manual twisting of the skis to point downhill during the transition between turns, while they're unweighted. It's a quick way to get a significant portion of the new turn done before the skis are even edged and engaged. It lets people make quick direction changes while avoiding the top half of a turn, the portion where speed increases.
Sounds like it could be useful, right? Well, it is. On steep terrain, or narrow trails and chutes, or in moguls, pivots are pretty handy. But on more moderate terrain pivoting just represents extra energy and movement expended for no real purpose. One of the great thrills of skiing comes from experiencing the "Roller Coaster Effect" when turning. By that I mean the feeling of acceleration through the top half of a turn, then the bleeding of speed through the bottom half of the turn. It's like the feeling of accelerating as you go down the hill on a roller coaster, then catching your breath as you feel the speed slow down after you reach the bottom and start ascending the next hill.
At first people are often intimidated by the roller coaster effect when turning on skis. But once they learn the speed they feel increasing at the start of the turn is only fleeting, and learn that by the use of turn shape skills they can bleed off that extra speed again later in the turn as much as they desire, they come to enjoy it, and in doing so discover one of skiing's greatest secret pleasures.
Pivoting eliminates the top half of the turn, thus eliminating the acceleration phase and killing the roller coaster effect.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
To continue on your pivoting question, Adrian, facing down the falline puts your body into directional orientation conflict at the end of a turn, with your upper body facing down the hill while your legs and feet face across the hill. It creates a torque in the mid section of the body similar to a loaded spring. The moment you roll of edge at the end of the turn, disengaging and unweighting your skis, the spring is released and the skis snap back into directional alignment with your downhill facing upper body.
The principal/technique is call, "Anticipation", and if you're going to pivot, it's a very efficient and effective way to execute it. It feels as though it just happens automatically.
Finally, to clarify, pivoting is not a bad thing. To the contrary, it's a very useful type of turn and transition. The bad part comes when it's the only option in a skier's tool box of skills. Often, when skiers are taught to "always face down the hill", and come to believe that this is the only proper way to ski, they end up in that skill deficient boat, with pivoting being the only way they ever start a turn. That movement pattern then embeds itself in their muscle memory, more deeply with every day they continue to ski only that way. 90+ percent of the people I see from the lift, or work with in lessons, are plagued by perpetual pivoting syndrome. It's one of the first things I address; expanding their skill base to allow them to experience the effortless pleasures of non pivoted turns.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
FastMan, so would you recommend focusing on what the skis are doing more than upper body to learn how to edge and turn properly? I am trying to feel that edging feeling, but I never really know what to do with my upper body.
After all it is free
After all it is free
FastMan, thank you for providing so much detail. I need to read your words a few more times for them to sink in.
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zarb wrote:
FastMan, so would you recommend focusing on what the skis are doing more than upper body to learn how to edge and turn properly? I am trying to feel that edging feeling, but I never really know what to do with my upper body.
That's not a bad way to approach it, Zarb. If you're trying to make pivot free turn initiations, focusing on getting your skis up on edge and engaged during the transition between turns, before they've done any direction change, ensures that the upper body is not doing any of the funky rotation or counter rotation stuff.
That said, if you're trying to make pivot free turns, and at the same time trying to follow some prompt you received from a ski instructor to "keep your upper body facing down the falline", then you'll find success very difficult to achieve. In essence, you'll be working against yourself. Instead, allow your upper body to generally follow your direction of travel and pivot free turns will be much easier to pull off.
A good drill for learning to execute non pivoted turns is "The Counting Drill". Start a turn, and then begin to slowly count to yourself: "one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three", etc. See how high you can count before your skis have turned such that they're pointing straight down the falline. Try to reach at least one thousand three, without rushing your counting. If you can't do it, you're likely pivoting the start of the turn. Just roll onto your downhill edges while your skis are still pointing across the slope, pressure those downhill edges, and only then begin to turn, slowly and gently. The more slowly/gently you turn, the higher you can count. When you can count to three or more, your pivot will be gone, and your upper body will be doing what it should be.
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Adrian, I can recommend FastMan's instructional DVDs - very clear, and go step by step.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
zarb, Also suggest you have a look at Warren Smith DVD's, he has 4 of them I believe, covers things like thigh steering, sharing weight accross the skis, avoiding breaking away the lower ski and turning the inner ski and initiating turns..........all very techy and can be a tad confusing but if you're into body positioning and biomechanics they are excellent. I agree with all the above, varying terrain requires slightly differing upper body positioning, my advice would be not to get too hung up on it and it will come. My only tip is to ensure you're pole plants are right, a flick rather than a over-exaggeration and this will sort your upper body, leg flex and ensuring the weight is forward also seems to work too.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Rob@rar did a good job of explaining it...
There are always exceptions but a good rule of thumb is to have your upper body face the direction of momentum in order to maintain balance... of course this is determined by your tactics (turn shape and speed etc). Short skidded turns will generally be facing closer to the fall line and longer more carved turns will have your upper body a little more square to the skis.
Instructors rarely explain precise technique to their students... but instead use various teaching methodologies to give you a sensation and develop a certain skill. If the first method helped you come closer to your goal then that is probably something you should keep training with. Keep in mind however that any changes you make to your skiing (good or bad) are likely to feel pretty weird for a while.
I am pretty certain it has nothhing to do with North American vs European style.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I did a internet search on this subject and found this thread from way back. I was getting hung up on my upper body position. This helped alot!!
Also in my beginners classes the instructor never told us the roller coaster effect. The increase in speed as you go Into a turn. And not to panic, simply hold your body position as you complete the C shape turn. I thought that wouldve be helpful.
This thread is from way back but inwould lile to thank Fastman, David of the Marmottes and co for their input on this. Really did help me get over my hangup over upper body position
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've been currently bugged by the same point - watching some videos and reading about it... my conclusions so far, for long turns, are:
- at the turn transition, move hips up and lean slightly forward, upper body aligned to the skis, load on both skis
- for a split second skis will flatten
- skis will naturally turn down the fall line
- slowly increase the load over new outside skis
Does it make sense?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Yes indeed. In the past I have tried to keep my upper body facing directly down the fall line in long turns. Causing me to panic once the speed increases, pivot turn and do a Z line turn. This thread definately helped me put things in context
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Gustavobs wrote:
I've been currently bugged by the same point - watching some videos and reading about it... my conclusions so far, for long turns, are:
- at the turn transition, move hips up and lean slightly forward, upper body aligned to the skis, load on both skis
- for a split second skis will flatten
- skis will naturally turn down the fall line
- slowly increase the load over new outside skis
Does it make sense?
Yes, although I'd say you need to think about move your hips laterally, across your skis at transition, not 'up'. One way of thinking about that is to start pressing / extending early on what will become your new outside ski as soon as the edge bites, which means you're not equally loading both skis through the transition.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Gustavobs wrote:
I've been currently bugged by the same point - watching some videos and reading about it... my conclusions so far, for long turns, are:
- at the turn transition, move hips up and lean slightly forward, upper body aligned to the skis, load on both skis
- for a split second skis will flatten
- skis will naturally turn down the fall line
- slowly increase the load over new outside skis
Does it make sense?
Yes, although I'd say you need to think about move your hips laterally, across your skis at transition, not 'up'. One way of thinking about that is to start pressing / extending early on what will become your new outside ski as soon as the edge bites, which means you're not equally loading both skis through the transition.
Yeah, that makes more sense Do you move you hips laterally and then lean forward for tipping or it all comes together ?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Gustavobs wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Gustavobs wrote:
I've been currently bugged by the same point - watching some videos and reading about it... my conclusions so far, for long turns, are:
- at the turn transition, move hips up and lean slightly forward, upper body aligned to the skis, load on both skis
- for a split second skis will flatten
- skis will naturally turn down the fall line
- slowly increase the load over new outside skis
Does it make sense?
Yes, although I'd say you need to think about move your hips laterally, across your skis at transition, not 'up'. One way of thinking about that is to start pressing / extending early on what will become your new outside ski as soon as the edge bites, which means you're not equally loading both skis through the transition.
Yeah, that makes more sense Do you move you hips laterally and then lean forward for tipping or it all comes together ?
... Do you move you hips laterally and then lean forward for tipping or it all comes together ?
I think you'll find that a discrete reach out with an upturned palm is generally sufficient for tipping. There's no need to bow at that point (well perhaps there is in Japan, I don't know).
Quote:
This might help:
I can see they're teaching novices, but he's doing a great job of looking like a novice there. Is that how they teach people to teach?
I think there may be a danger of over complicating this, and confusing action with reaction.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Gustavobs wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Gustavobs wrote:
I've been currently bugged by the same point - watching some videos and reading about it... my conclusions so far, for long turns, are:
- at the turn transition, move hips up and lean slightly forward, upper body aligned to the skis, load on both skis
- for a split second skis will flatten
- skis will naturally turn down the fall line
- slowly increase the load over new outside skis
Does it make sense?
Yes, although I'd say you need to think about move your hips laterally, across your skis at transition, not 'up'. One way of thinking about that is to start pressing / extending early on what will become your new outside ski as soon as the edge bites, which means you're not equally loading both skis through the transition.
Yeah, that makes more sense Do you move you hips laterally and then lean forward for tipping or it all comes together ?
I'd concentrate on pressing/standing on your new outside ski early, don't stress about your hips or lateral movements at this stage of "internet diagnosis".
I can see they're teaching novices, but he's doing a great job of looking like a novice there. Is that how they teach people to teach?
I think there may be a danger of over complicating this, and confusing action with reaction.
When he demonstrates expert skiing, he looks like an expert....which isn't much help if you are a struggling Intermediate. I felt that demo was straightforward and easy to follow.....horses for courses, I suppose.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Gustavobs wrote:
Yeah, that makes more sense Do you move you hips laterally and then lean forward for tipping or it all comes together ?
They are blended together, but I think it's nigh on impossible to think about all the different movements we make at the same time when we're skiing. Best to focus on just one thing, which you know will ensure an effective transition and you set up the turn well.
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar wrote:
Gustavobs wrote:
Yeah, that makes more sense Do you move you hips laterally and then lean forward for tipping or it all comes together ?
They are blended together, but I think it's nigh on impossible to think about all the different movements we make at the same time when we're skiing. Best to focus on just one thing, which you know will ensure an effective transition and you set up the turn well.
Thanks, Rob. It's just because in a recent lesson I was advised that in my weak turn I was twisting a little bit my upper body I started to raise awareness about what's the ideal move. So far my approach has been to focus on shifting the balance and although my move "felt right" to me, I was doing it wrong. I can definitely see a "trend" in the suggested approach but there are various different opinions on the topic which makes it really confusing for improvers.
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Gustavobs wrote:
... I was advised that in my weak turn I was twisting a little bit my upper body I started to raise awareness about what's the ideal move...
In the sense that your were subconsciously steering the turn with your shoulders? This is a a fairly common problem, and worth nipping in the bud as it's difficult to change if it becomes an ingrained habit. Ski with a quiet upper body is good advice. If it is more prevalent on your weaker side it might well be a subconscious compensatory movement, so it's worth looking at why isn't working so well on your weaker side and addressing that, the cause, rather than the symptom of shoulder steering.
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rob@rar wrote:
Gustavobs wrote:
... I was advised that in my weak turn I was twisting a little bit my upper body I started to raise awareness about what's the ideal move...
In the sense that your were subconsciously steering the turn with your shoulders? This is a a fairly common problem, and worth nipping in the bud as it's difficult to change if it becomes an ingrained habit. Ski with a quiet upper body is good advice. If it is more prevalent on your weaker side it might well be a subconscious compensatory movement, so it's worth looking at why isn't working so well on your weaker side and addressing that, the cause, rather than the symptom of shoulder steering.
Yes. I believe was a mix of impatience with the turn and the fact I was not fully loading my new outside ski, then compensating with upper body twist to turn quicker. That was magnified in steeper slopes (as any flaw really).
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