 Poster: A snowHead
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Asking for a friend. They have a Land Rover Disco that has Prirelli Scorpion Verde ‘All Seasons’ marked with M+S but no Snowflake/3 Peaks winter marking (which my all/seasons have). They plan to drive to Chatel for the first time this season, and future seasons, and we are wondering two things:
1. Will they be required to fit chains (which will be carried), if indicated by sign / police, of will they be allowed to carry on like cars with snowflake marking.
2. What is the situation in Switzerland where conjecture on the web seems to point to winter tyres not being compulsory but there may be insurance issues if one was to have a crash in winter conditions. Would M+S only marking be viewed negatively.
Keen to hear back from 4X4 drivers with M+S only tyres.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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We did M+S on our X5 last winter and still needed to add chains. They were not as grippy as we had hoped and so are looking to get 'real' winter tyres now.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The M+S designation means nothing other than the tyre has a 'blocky' tread. There's no official certification of M+S. Winter tyres with the 'mountain+snowflake' symbol are certified, and have a rubber compound for cold weather and usually a tread design that is both more 'blocky' plus sipes - lots of small zig-zag groves that make the tyre squirm more and warm up better. In many ways their snow performance is icing on the cake: winter tyres have a shorter braking distance in cold weather, even in the dry, plus they're usually a lot more resistant to aquaplaning than summers or summer M+S (which is pretty useful even in a snow free but wet UK winter).
The confusion is that winter tyres will often also carry the M+S label on them as well. So people think M+S and winter are synonymous, but they aren't.
The key question isn't really what's legal but what's best and safest. In the case of summer M+S tyres they really aren't going to perform well compared to certified winters, even if you don't hit any snow. Most forum feedback, and my own experience is that once you have certified winters on, you are very unlikely indeed to need to resort to chains. In 15 years of travelling to the Alps on winters, I've only needed to use chains twice, and one of them was on a hire car.
However, even with winters on a 4X4 there is still the possibility the police will mandate chains if conditions are bad. It may seem perverse, but in bad conditions on a mountain ascent, they know that chains will guarantee everyone gets up/down. They don't want a succession of cars stranded and blocking the road, at a point dependent on they winter tyre quality. And the two times I've had to use chains have been when the drive out of our apartment block has been steep and icy - once out on the main road, we took them off: I've watched people leaving on a Saturday and being unable to get up their snowy/icy drives and having to call for a tow out.
All-seasons are contentious because there is no official certification for them. So the OP's question, especially regarding insurance liability, is hard to answer definitively. The definition of winters is that 'mountain and snowflake' symbl and some all-seasons don't have it (some do, strangely, which confuses things even more). I think all-seasons are a very good option for the UK, especially in the Midlands/South because whilst not as good as summers in summer, or winters in winter, the difference is generally outweighed by the convenience of not having to swap and store, plus in spring and autumn, you can cope with a sudden change into warmer/colder conditions. All-seasons with the mountain and snowflake symbol still seem not to be as good as all-out winters in cold and snow, but how big that difference is, is hard to determine and of course, is very dependent on conditions.
For me, what swings the choice between 1. all-seasons-year-'round vs 2. summers-in-summer and winters-in-winter, is going to the Alps. So that's why I have winters. But I appreciate that this can be an expensive choice for what might turn out to be a marginal case.
And finally make sure you understand your traction control settings. My BMW Owner's Manual is hopeless and takes about 3 pages and a bunch of acronyms to explain that my 'car with wobbly lines' button is effectively a snow button: I press it when I go onto snow, and press it again when I come off snow.
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@LaForet, always enjoy your tyre posts 
In 12 years of going to Chamonix (or other reasonably proper alpine destinations) most weekends we have never had our ability to get up the hill questioned (AWD, good snow tyres). But I admit it is a possibility. Our car apparently shouldn't wear chains. A subject somewhat mired in fog.
The closest to being stopped I've got was returning from Besancon and the Jura road was closed. The Gendarmes and I had a pleasant and positive discussion and I was allowed through. About 30 cms of fresh in a few hours. Not the fastest trip I've done.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@LaForet, thanks for taking the time to reply. I get your perspective on tyres - I choose to run Cross Clomates for logistical / practicality which I know you also have on your smaller car. My friend is a marginal case and will only go once a year and leases his car. We accept he will have to drive Slower and will have to fit chains. The situation with Swiss regulations / insurance is however not clear.
... and car manuals are very badly written and clearly by the legal team. (I once tried to understand if I could put a child seat in the front, and it was so confising that i shelved the idea)
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This is what can happen. Nearly landed on our heads.
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@Ozboy Yes, the liability question is a hard one, and not just in Switzerland. Trouble with insurers is you never really know until there's an incident and claim. And even if a sales rep tells you one thing on the 'phone, you can't be sure the claims handling agency will accept it. It took about 5 years for UK insurers to definitively decide that adding winter tyres wasn't an upgrade and even now, notification/not isn't consistent between insurers. What happens if a foreign insurer goes all-out to blame you for an accident is uncertain. I must admit, this was another reason why I opted to bite the bullet and get winters. But that was before the days of such good all-seasons, so the choice was fairly simple.
And I appreciate the cost can just grow and grow if it turns out your car isn't certified to carry chains on your whizzo low-profile wheels (the case with my current main car). And if it's a lease car, then the whole expense starts again with the next vehicle .....
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| Quote: |
The M+S designation means nothing other than the tyre has a 'blocky' tread. There's no official certification of M+S.
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This is not correct - but it is confusing. The M+S designation is actually the only legally accepted definition of winter tyres. E.g. - In Germany, where winter tyres are required once the weather is cold enough and where people usually change over late Oct - early Nov, the M+S marking is what is legally required on the tyre sidewall, NOT the snowflake/mountain symbol.
It IS, however, true to say that the M+S marking does not denote tested and certified levels of performance in Winter conditions. Tyres with the mountain and snowflake symbol have been tested to much more stringent criteria with regards to traction and braking distances etc in winter conditions and perform much better however, there is nowhere in Europe (or in the world AFAIK) that requires them to be fitted - the only legal requirement is the M+S marking.
https://www.michelin.co.uk/winter/difference-between-winter-tyres-summer-tyres
I drive a Disco 4 and am driving to the Alps both over New Year and Easter and I've currently got the factory-fitted Goodyear Wrangler HP tyres which, similar to the Pirellis, are all-season tyres with M+S marking. So, legally, I'm in the clear if we have an accident (from the tyre perspective at least and assuming it it's not my fault!) From a performance perspective, I'm not anticipating any issues as haven't in the past - if the conditions are so bad that the combination of the snow off-road setting and tyres can't cope, then we're in trouble anyway - and I do carry chains as a last resort.
There are some caveats to my position though - the resorts we drive to in the Chamonix Basin and Evasion Mont Blanc areas are not up steep, high mountain switchbacks and I've never used any of the special settings in the car, nor the snow chains, to get anywhere. If I didn't have permanent 4x4 in a car designed to be able to use it properly, I would absolutely fit tyres with a mountain/snowflake symbol and if I was going to be driving with my family above c.1200m in winter, I think I would put them on for peace of mind - In fact, when the Goodyear's are worn, I'll probably fit the Vredestein Quatrac series with are also all-seasons but do have the mountain snowflake.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
Asking for a friend. They have a Land Rover Disco that has Prirelli Scorpion Verde ‘All Seasons’ marked with M+S but no Snowflake/3 Peaks winter marking (which my all/seasons have). They plan to drive to Chatel for the first time this season, and future seasons, and we are wondering two things:
1. Will they be required to fit chains (which will be carried), if indicated by sign / police, of will they be allowed to carry on like cars with snowflake marking.
2. What is the situation in Switzerland where conjecture on the web seems to point to winter tyres not being compulsory but there may be insurance issues if one was to have a crash in winter conditions. Would M+S only marking be viewed negatively.
Keen to hear back from 4X4 drivers with M+S only tyres. |
To answer your questions, it's yes and yes. Here in Switzerland winter tyres aren't compulsory but everybody talks about the insurance issue to the point that no one in their right mind tries driving in the hills in winter without them. They'd also be required to carry chains, but you'd need to carry chains even with winters, but would be less likely to have to fit them.
Where are they going in Châtel ? Some bits are steeper than others.
In my experience a heavy, high centre of gravity suv 4x4 is the most likely type of car to end in a ditch, so the last question is, do you, sorry they, really need to save the money?
I once borrowed a friend's 4x4 suv equipped with all-seasons and drove it on a slushy motorway between Montreux and aigle. I was so shocked how bad it was, compared with my usual 4x4 estate with winters, I wouldn't have gone anywhere near a hill. I left it in a car park in aigle and took the bus to Villars.
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| under a new name wrote: |
This is what can happen. Nearly landed on our heads.
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Easier to put the chains on when the car is on its roof.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snoozeboy wrote: |
| Easier to put the chains on when the car is on its roof. |
True dat but getting the skis off the roof rack is then a bit tricky.
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@snoozeboy, we are at the very top of Route Du Boude in Chatel which is the steep road going up past Viex Four restaurant, if you know it, and turns to the right at the to. I’d envisage they might need chains at the very top as there is a blue chain sign. We have the option of heading towards Petit Chatel and back into town as it’s less steep
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Bob, thanks saw this and his other videos and it help me choose Cross Climates for my situation. My friend is stuck with his M+S tyres (leased car, one off trip) and we trying to figure out if we should avoid driving the quicker Swiss route if it’s snowing for insurance reasons.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Ozboy, concerned with insurance rather than potential accident outcome? Right.... why does he fly to Geneva and hire a car? It is simple ignorance! Not having traction by going uphill and jamming the road is one thing but not being able to stop in a heavy vehicle or spining arround and risking head-on collission is no laughing matter. Hope such winter warriors stay at home and not risk theirs and others health and life
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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US Rubber Manufacturers Association definition of M+S and Mountain and Snowflake tyres is here.
Trouble is, the use of the M+S symbol is not controlled (unlike the Mountain and Snowflake) so anyone can just stick M+S on the side if they feel like it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Ozboy, on pirelli.com pirelli scorpion verde is listed as a summer Suv tyre
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| LaForet wrote: |
The M+S designation means nothing other than the tyre has a 'blocky' tread. There's no official certification of M+S. Winter tyres with the 'mountain+snowflake' symbol are certified, and have a rubber compound for cold weather and usually a tread design that is both more 'blocky' plus sipes - lots of small zig-zag groves that make the tyre squirm more and warm up better. In many ways their snow performance is icing on the cake: winter tyres have a shorter braking distance in cold weather, even in the dry, plus they're usually a lot more resistant to aquaplaning than summers or summer M+S (which is pretty useful even in a snow free but wet UK winter).
The confusion is that winter tyres will often also carry the M+S label on them as well. So people think M+S and winter are synonymous, but they aren't.
The key question isn't really what's legal but what's best and safest. In the case of summer M+S tyres they really aren't going to perform well compared to certified winters, even if you don't hit any snow. Most forum feedback, and my own experience is that once you have certified winters on, you are very unlikely indeed to need to resort to chains. In 15 years of travelling to the Alps on winters, I've only needed to use chains twice, and one of them was on a hire car.
However, even with winters on a 4X4 there is still the possibility the police will mandate chains if conditions are bad. It may seem perverse, but in bad conditions on a mountain ascent, they know that chains will guarantee everyone gets up/down. They don't want a succession of cars stranded and blocking the road, at a point dependent on they winter tyre quality. And the two times I've had to use chains have been when the drive out of our apartment block has been steep and icy - once out on the main road, we took them off: I've watched people leaving on a Saturday and being unable to get up their snowy/icy drives and having to call for a tow out.
All-seasons are contentious because there is no official certification for them. So the OP's question, especially regarding insurance liability, is hard to answer definitively. The definition of winters is that 'mountain and snowflake' symbl and some all-seasons don't have it (some do, strangely, which confuses things even more). I think all-seasons are a very good option for the UK, especially in the Midlands/South because whilst not as good as summers in summer, or winters in winter, the difference is generally outweighed by the convenience of not having to swap and store, plus in spring and autumn, you can cope with a sudden change into warmer/colder conditions. All-seasons with the mountain and snowflake symbol still seem not to be as good as all-out winters in cold and snow, but how big that difference is, is hard to determine and of course, is very dependent on conditions.
For me, what swings the choice between 1. all-seasons-year-'round vs 2. summers-in-summer and winters-in-winter, is going to the Alps. So that's why I have winters. But I appreciate that this can be an expensive choice for what might turn out to be a marginal case.
And finally make sure you understand your traction control settings. My BMW Owner's Manual is hopeless and takes about 3 pages and a bunch of acronyms to explain that my 'car with wobbly lines' button is effectively a snow button: I press it when I go onto snow, and press it again when I come off snow. |
Nice explanation!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@jma, not accurate info. DE law from 2010 require as of Jan 2018 to have 3 mountain peaks marking! All season tyres are accepted as an interim measure till 2024, BUT only if tyres were produced before 2018! Now, if people not sure how to read tyre production year and month - look for a small oval/rectangle with four digits - fist two designate week of a year and last to a year of production - 18 would stand for 2018, 17 for 2017 etcetc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@mooney058, You might have the wrong end of the stick... let me explain. Can't fly as too expensive to GVA for family of 5 for half term. They understand the risks, do not hoon around, and most certainly are not winter warriors - they reflect what I think is what most families form Benelux, Northern France and UK have to consider when driving to the French Alps - I assume most going to France are on summers and using chains when required in accordance to the law. There is an option of driving a short way through Switzerland which saves at least an hour but this opens up a secondary, but important, can of worms in terms of liability and insurance should something go wrong in wintery conditions. See the informative posts above from @jma and @LaForet.
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@Ozboy, I give you my perspective - no symphaty from me when I see an expensive car spinning in front of me as driver/owner decided to take risk and play Russian roulette with my ahealth/life .... I experienced it first hand - a nutter in a brand new 500 Mercedes heading straight at me out of control - luckily I had an escape route. But it was miliseconds and good luck. I appreciate informative posts of LaForet. In your message you asked if somebody in an expensive car on summer tyres should take a chance because the correct solution costs say 700 pounds? F...k it, no sympathy from me in this situation.
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The reviews for the Pirelli Scorpion Verde ‘All Seasons’ show them as being a bit better than summer tyres but not that much. In which case I would take the most "defensive" route and timing so would definitely not take the Swiss route but the A40 then to Thonon and up the valley aiming to arrive in the village around mid day.
We were in Chatel in January when it started to snow heavily on the Friday and gradually the village came to a halt as the snow depth increased with the main road becoming impossible. Early Saturday morning the snow ploughs were out clearing the roads and gradually the traffic started to flow but conditions remained tricky for ill equipped cars until about 11:00. The road to Morgins closed very early.
Has your friend thought about buying some second hand winters from Ebay and then selling them on again. As long as they have more than 4mm tread then they will be better than the all seasons.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@mooney058, Kindly read my original post again ... no mention of 'Summer' tyres. Thanks for your constructive advice.
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@Timc, Yes that's the route I have suggested if the weather be bad. I did it a few weeks ago driving back form Chatel in foul weather as did not want to drive over the Jura's in heavy rain. Added about 90 mins to the overall journey but the whole drive north was slower - must have rained for 75% of the Journey. The good news is that the RD22 should be re-open by the end of the year which will make it quicker from Thonon.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Ozboy, appologies for my tone. I still relive the experience of a car spinning in front of me. Indeed, you mentioned that it is all season variant of scrpion verde. Not ideal but better than summer scorpion verde.
On this risk assesment side - I hate indeed compromises people make on safety
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@altis, point about M+S designation has quite an impact as it does appear on tires with such different competencies.
It originally meant a tire with self clearing tread pattern to shed mud and snow and leave the cleats open. Also, because of the snow rating it had flexibility down to low temps. Primarily for use on supported base covered in snow or mud ( not particularly supportive on very soft groundbase) never normally rated to high speeds. It's why it has for years formed part of that description in some European countries of requirements across vehicle sizes historically.
One type it's confused with on "traditional" 4wd vehicles is the AT designation, meaning all terrain. They look tough and chunky but with virtually nill low temp accommodation. These really don't offer much for winter use in spite of what they look like. If you see someone stuck or tobogganing downhill in snow it's likely to be these.
As vehicle speeds have increased, then so is it harder to hold this fairly simple designation. Tire speed rating, loading, type of vehicle etc makes it difficult to impossible to generalise.
The tires stated on your friends car don't seem to offer much in this direction even though they are marked so. I'd be honestly nervous about those tires in extreme conditions.
http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/experience-with-michelin-latitude-cross-opinions-please-159890.html something like this offers far more scope on these vehicle for the intended conditions. The Pirelli Verde is much more orientated toward an eco tire with low rolling resistance and consequential limited extreme weather performance.
They are both marked as M+S but differ hugely. I use the michelin example because of the scope, it does work well in snow. We carry chains but never had to use them, only once checked by Gendarmes and cleared to proceed.
They offer a really good blend of performance, particularly relating to his type of vehicle and the conditions aimed at covering.
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@ski3, good points! Just to add that in most cases vehicle size and weight increased too. Your tobogganing expression made me chuckle, though it is easy to chuckle from a comfort of my sofa and not seeng a toboggan approaching straight at you.
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You know it makes sense.
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@ski3,
“One type it's confused with on "traditional" 4wd vehicles is the AT designation, meaning all terrain. They look tough and chunky but with virtually nill low temp accommodation. These really don't offer much for winter use in spite of what they look like. If you see someone stuck or tobogganing downhill in snow it's likely to be these. “
It’s not quite as cut and dried as this. I recently switched to General Grabber AT3s. They are all terrain tyres with the classic blocky tread, but the compound is softer and they do have sipes. It is the first off-road tyre I’ve come across that does have the mountain+snowflake symbol.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@foxtrotzulu, interesting...
Tirerack says, about the AT 2, “While non-winter tires featuring the three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol provide additional longitudinal snow traction beyond what all-season (M+S) tires not bearing the symbol can deliver, they do not match the capability of a true winter tire in all adverse weather conditions.”
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Poster: A snowHead
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@foxtrotzulu, I've not tried those but they seem well regarded along with the predecessor.
I was generalising about categories, yes. To most people they all look the same sort of thing fitted to 4wd but can differ significantly in their properties and focus.
I guess the design and test schedule has an impact also as tires already "in market" may have the capability to pass scrutiny for three peaks etc but will never be submitted to test regime until next design iteration.
It looks like many situations in which the driving going downhill is fairly sketchy even with decent tires. Failing to fully use transmission braking effectively on slow significant decent appears to really catch people out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@mooney058, all good and glad all ended well with the Mercedes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, you're right, the 3pmsf criteria only sets a minimum performance level above a "control" tire. It can't, by its nature define or quantify performance above that level as I see it.
It just says if it will pass or not. Last time I read the testing criteria, I understood it to say that it's tested on 1% gradient also.
It's set up to give a marketable / understandable judgment of fit for purpose at that level.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@foxtrotzulu, interesting...
Tirerack says, about the AT 2, “While non-winter tires featuring the three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol provide additional longitudinal snow traction beyond what all-season (M+S) tires not bearing the symbol can deliver, they do not match the capability of a true winter tire in all adverse weather conditions.” |
The AT3s are, I understand, quite different from the AT2s, but don’t ask me how!
The problem, as I understand it, is that the requirements of an off-road Tyre are almost diametrically opposed to those of a winter tyre. For off road you want big chunky blocks and a hard compound to withstand abrasion. A winter tyre doesn’t really need blocks (more rubber on the road the better) and a nice soft compound. No idea how they manage the. I promise with the AT3, but it’s a good tyre. However, I doubt it’s quite as good as a tyre designed 100% for cold/snowy on-road conditions, but it stops me wrestling with wheel changing twice a year.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ski3, re: transmission braking. Fully agree, although the hill descent control on most 4x4s and newer cars is pretty amazing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@ski3, @foxtrotzulu, also fully agree with transmission braking and using feathering of brakes. However the Mercedes e-class owner’s manual, provides the following advice (go figure!):
“If you shift down on slippery road surfaces to increase the engine braking effect, the drive wheels may lose traction.
Do not shift down on slippery road surfaces to increase the engine braking effect.”
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@Ozboy, not sure where your friend is based but I have some second hand Good Year Ultragrip Winters listed on the buy/sell forum that have come off a Disco 4. Full details are on there or PM me if they are of interest.
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Slight tangent but thought folks might be interested - I’ve just bought two Michelin cross climates for my Volvo XC60 from ATS online - they are doing free fitting so price per tyre was £128 - which was about £17 cheaper than anywhere else - and if you buy two or more you can get a free amazon echo thingy worth (apparently) £50.
No affiliation to ATS btw - just thought it was a good deal for really good all season tyres (I’ve already got two on and they’ve been very good imho).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@lib-banana, I decided to fit Cross Climates to my AWD e-class estate about 6 weeks ago and it’s comforting to hear you are happy with yours. That’s a great deal as I paid £148 per tyre in Central London and did not get an amazon dot!
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@foxtrotzulu, Actually, mean to post last night that that disclaimer appears on their site quite often for many different tyres!
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FAQ
