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DWR an alternative to Goretex?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I have an amazing Stellar puffa coat and like the look of their Guide jacket and pants. My problem is it is quoted as DWR (Durable water repellent) coated fabric, albeit with a high rating.

My problem is my Goretex Oakley outfit has been outstanding in all weathers and I'm only looking for something else for a change of colours. I also have a set of Musto HPX sailling kit, also in Goretex and also infallible, so I know and trust the fabric.

I really like the look of the Stellar outfit but would you pay the thick end of £800 for something that wasn't Goretex?

My biggest worry is that it won't stay repellent, and/or the DWR coating won't survive the washing machine if it gets dirty.

Thoughts?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@bar shaker, I wouldn’t rely on dwr fabric for serious mountain weather. However, if you wash your dwr fabric in nikwax tech wash, and treat it occasionally with nikwax Rx direct washin (both easy to do in washing machine), then you should maintain the dwr properties nicely - my soft shell trousers and jackets get heavy use but still working well. I guess grangers and others do similar cleaning products.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@bar shaker, If you read the product page, the waterproof membrane is Toray Dermizax®NX.
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DWR is just the chemical coating put onto the outside of the fabric to reduce condensation, improving breathability and consequently stopping moisture getting to the inside. It needs to be reapplied to maintain the effect. So in this regard the type of fabric/membrane your jacket as is irrelevant. The DWR any manufacturer won't vary that much anyway it will be down to you to maintain it.

Of the course the fabric/membrane is massively important in it's own right. There are lots of different Gore-tex alternatives. See this and this as examples.

The Stellar Guide jacket uses SEQ-Z650-3L which is a so new it has not even got a name and so has no real review or track record to say whether it's efficient or not. But ultimately the answer to your question "My biggest worry is that it won't stay repellent, and/or the DWR coating won't survive the washing machine if it gets dirty." is that it will be no different to any other jacket you buy.

Just one other note Stellar Shell jacket uses Dermizax NX which is a bit different and doesn't have pores like most fabrics.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
under a new name wrote:
@bar shaker, If you read the product page, the waterproof membrane is Toray Dermizax®NX.

Not the "Guide" jacket as discussed above.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 24-10-18 10:04; edited 1 time in total
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The breathable membrane is dermizax. Plenty of stuff on the internet comparing these.

DWR is a surface treatment which is applied to almost all waterproof jackets goretex or otherwise
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@Layne, look at the full product details tab
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Goretex is a marketing dream that they've managed to preserve a position of assumed excellence in the market over 30+ years. I'm sceptical naturally that competing products are incapable of some of the same benefits. IME most of the performance comes from having a good DWR in addition to the breathable membrane i.e. if the surface fabric beads well and drains off it will perform vastly better than one which has wetted out which in turn saturates the membrane rendering it pretty useless.

A new low end jacket e.g. Hyvent or whatever will outperform an old dirty top end goretex IME.
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Arno wrote:
@Layne, look at the full product details tab

You mean this one?

Full product details i

_Face fabric: 3-ply, SEQ-Z650-3L fabric. DWR treated, fully waterproof and extremely breathable, super durable 166gr/sqm, 100% Nylon.
_Waterproofness: 20 000 mm.
_Breathability: 20 000 mm/sqm/24h.
_Garment weight: M 662 grams, L 689 grams, XL 728 grams, XXL 766 grams.
_Fixed hood adjustable at front and at back.
_Extra high at front of hood for maximum protection against the elements.
_Extra long at front.
_Extended back.
_YKK Aquaguard™ technology used on all exposed zippers.
_Two-way front zipper.
_Two, extra big chest pockets.
_One upper sleeve pocket.
_Extra big ventilation openings under arms.
_Bottom hem adjustable with elastic drawstring.
_Extra big cuff openings for easy closure.
_Cuffs adjustable with velcro.
_Pre-articulated sleeves.
_Extra long sleeves for extra freedom of movement.
_One zipped inner pocket.
_One mesh inner pocket.
_Internal snowgaiter with “Stellar Closure System”.

My bold.

I'm not in the market for a jacket but I was interested in the question/technology.

Stellar's product line seems a bit confusing as they have a "Stellar Shell Jacket" and a "Guide Shell Jacket" with similar looks/colour. The latter is a £100 more though!
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@bar shaker,
Quote:

would you pay the thick end of £800 for something that wasn't Goretex?



No
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@Layne, oops- as if to prove your point about the confusing website, I was looking at the wrong one Embarassed
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Arno wrote:
@Layne, oops- as if to prove your point about the confusing website, I was looking at the wrong one Embarassed

Sure, I had to really check myself. Interesting the different fabrics they use (even in the same company) and their supposed characteristics/benefits. I think punters haven't a cat in hells chance of knowing which is best or value for money.
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@Layne, you are indeed correct.

Frankly, I'd prefer the Stellar Shell with more pockets.

But clearly, the Guide is a 3 layer membrane based construction.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
goretex is just a brand where companies pay royalties to use the technology.
There is plenty of equally good technology fabric options.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
While we are on the subject - anyone got experience of tech washing?

I thought I'd give the ski wear a going over but while I have a bottle of TX wash in, my bottle of tech wash was empty. Before I hit up Amazon anyone used a household substitute? Supermarkets don't seem to stock soap flakes any more but would ordinary liquid soap do the same job? I've always understood that the point was not to use detergent because of how it coats fibres/breaks surface tension but understood Tech Wash was basically soap based?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Can't really answer your question, but I once left a bottle of Tech Wash on my beautifully oiled wooden worktop, and where it had run down the sides and formed a nice circle at the base, it stripped the Danish oil back to the wood Shocked I've not tested it (it took years to fade the mark away), but I'm not sure soap would do that.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
..... I thought I'd give the ski wear a going over......

Shocked
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spyderjon wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
..... I thought I'd give the ski wear a going over......

Shocked


Nah Shocked would have been a coming over
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Nikwax Tech Wash is 5-15% Soap, so, nope Smile

DWR is a treatment to the surface of a fabric/material (Gor-T,Derm,Sympt,Pert,etc...) to increase the water repellent properties (beading) of the material.

Biscuits anyone ? Toofy Grin
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
While we are on the subject - anyone got experience of tech washing?

I thought I'd give the ski wear a going over but while I have a bottle of TX wash in, my bottle of tech wash was empty. Before I hit up Amazon anyone used a household substitute? Supermarkets don't seem to stock soap flakes any more but would ordinary liquid soap do the same job? I've always understood that the point was not to use detergent because of how it coats fibres/breaks surface tension but understood Tech Wash was basically soap based?


Have always used tech wash, but according to Persil .....https://www.persil.com/uk/laundry/laundry-tips/fabrics/how-to-wash-gore-tex-and-other-waterproofs.html
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Very informative. Maybe I will get the Stellar outfit after all.
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There's a liquid soap sold, both Morrison and Waitrose sell it for same cost currently £3 for a bottle.

States on the label that it's " ideal for waterproof clothing as it doesn't strip the waterproof layer" along with use for delicate materials plus sensetive skin etc.

Appears to be vegetable based plain soap with no solvents etc.

We've been using it on many things without problem including down filled items. Cleans well and has no perfume to it.

Recoating jackets etc with Graingers DWP but "baking" it in at low tumble dryer setting as following advice someone posted on here with link from Arcteryx. Seems effective so far.
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On a similar note ... has anyone heard of Montane? I accidentally came across their factory shop in NE and stuff looks decent but not really designed for skiing (as far as i can tell). I'm not into any extreme stuff but thought it would be ok for general ski wear.

I didn't buy anything, as I'd not heard of it, but the factory shop is not too far away so I can easily head back if i'm getting decent stuff at a discount. Very Happy
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Bianchigray wrote:
On a similar note ... has anyone heard of Montane? I accidentally came across their factory shop in NE and stuff looks decent but not really designed for skiing (as far as i can tell). I'm not into any extreme stuff but thought it would be ok for general ski wear.

I didn't buy anything, as I'd not heard of it, but the factory shop is not too far away so I can easily head back if i'm getting decent stuff at a discount. Very Happy

I have Montane down jacket which has been excellent.
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Montane is quality mountain gear, beloved of climbers.
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ski3 wrote:

Recoating jackets etc with Graingers DWP but "baking" it in at low tumble dryer setting as following advice someone posted on here with link from Arcteryx. Seems effective so far.


Another vote for Grangers and low heat tumble drying. I use this on my Musto sailing gear with great results.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Also a quick iron can reduce wetting out by smoothing the surface.
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Agree, as @Scarpa,.

I've been trying it on different fabrics and items. Fabric trainers, not bad but varies on the differing fabrics within.

More towards a cotton / denim type jacket and it just won't bead the water effectively to prevent ingress, was wondering if the fabric fibres were wetted out with Grangers then tumbled, if it would give much waterproof effect. Very inconclusive.

More open fabric nylon based jacket is more successful with decent beeding and runoff, but if it contacts something like a rucksack strap it'll encourage ingress.

Originally bought the DWP after the Arcteryx article as Mrs Ski3 has one about 15 yrs old, the reproofing was entirely successful on this by following the manufacturer's instruction. Very good beeding and almost instant water runoff. Very pleased with that.

Any small "furryness" on fabric material works against beeding it appears. I looks like it's just easier for the fabric to break down the water tension and so reduce the size of droplets, making them travel deeper into the substrate.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hadnt done it for a while, so this thread was a good reminder.

I got the TX Direct out, and ran the hardshell and pants of my Columbia gear (omnitech) through a normal programme.

Tumble dried on low, hung out and dried fully.

Held one of the arms under a tap last night, water just ran off - hooray Very Happy Very Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
As an update, I ordered the Stellar 'Guide' jacket and pants. They are the best made skiing outer layers I've ever seen. Really happy with the quality and they bead perfectly when held under the tap.

I am much happier with this than the single ply Pro stuff I considered. I know that wouldn't have lasted one tree run down to La Daille.
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