 Poster: A snowHead
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| PG wrote: |
| I'm not so sure that they represent the great majority of sports fans. Still, however numerous they are, helping to pay the bills doesn't make the b*stards any less carping or whingeing, |
Perfectly true
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and good luck to the ungrateful sports pros that tell them so ...  |
... until they stop paying their wages, I suppose.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 20-03-06 16:36; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PG wrote: |
| I'm not so sure that they represent the great majority of sports fans. Still, however numerous they are, helping to pay the bills doesn't make the b*stards any less carping or whingeing, |
Perfectly true
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| and good luck to the ungrateful sports pros that tell them so ... |
... until they stop paying their wages, I suppose.
There is a 'slightly' serious point here. I (like most of us) have to perform at or near the top of my form for my clients, otherwise I'll get a bollocking, lose a client or (worst case scenario) get sued and lose my house, car, children, have to put the old lady back on the streets (where I found her). Sometimes I have to tolerate unjustified criticism from a client. Why should sports pros be any different? The difference is that they, like actors and politicians, conduct the sharp end of their business in public and have thousands (or millions) of clients, each of whom 'knows' that they could do the job just as well themselves if only ... . The principal remains the same, though. It goes with the (more or less any) job.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 20-03-06 16:37; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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richmond, I don't think you should ever tolerate unjustified criticism - you should say that it's unjustified. Unjustness is unacceptable.
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easiski, I do, but what I mean is I have to do so in a civil manner (as I'm sure sports pros and others do). The point is that sportspeople quite often perform below their best, it's in the nature of what they do. When that happens, they have to live with the carping and whingeing from those who, while being utterly incapable of performing a fraction as well as them, pay their wages and feel entitled to an opinion.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| JohnHill wrote: |
| [b]easiski, Martin Bell, when Martin used to ski the Hahnenkamm they pisted out all the bumps, swept away all the heavy stuff and put up ruddy great crash nets. Last tuesday I had to do it zero vis, chopped up powder, very irregular moguls and was made to stop for lunch half way down. It was so tough. |
Tough? Sounds like you attempted the ultimate Austrian culinary ordeal: the "Germknodel"...
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richmond, Yes - but the level they're expected to perform at is often totally unrealistic. The press and "fat blobs" can make 10th in the world sound like a failure!!! In terms of skiing then any Brits (not an alpine nation) who finish consistently in the top 50 in the world are doing exceptionally well IMO, and we should be proud of them and not slag them off as failures. 
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easiski, exactly, and particularly so if the sole criticism of the person concerned is that he did not conform to some outmoded perception of Victorian era public schoolboy ethics by daring to show a little emotion in public at the realisation that he'd missed out on his last chance to win an Olympic medal.
Show the guy some respect for his enormous achievements on behalf of British alpine skiing, is what I say.
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PG, steady on, don't take it personally (and I'm not talking about anyone in particular, just answering your point about criticism of sportspeople being unreasonable if it comes from people who can't cut it themselves). FWIW, I stand by my opinion that the world would be a better place if we had rather fewer public displays of emotion (note the 'public', easiski, I'm not advocating repressing your feelings, but that's what friends and family are for, not worldwide TV audiences).
easiski, that's life. We're all subject to unreasonable expectations. These guys get well rewarded for their efforts, they can surely take a bit of criticism, justified or not. They are able to, and do, defend themselves. If they're not tough enough to take it, they can always become commentators or pundits!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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richmond, I think they're remarkably restrained on the whole! We're never going to agree on this one - I thought it was great to see Hermann Maier rolling around in the snow throwing his skis around when he one the Solden GS last October - I don't have any problem with a bit of foot stamping or pole bashing either.
we were taking about someone in particular - this whole thread is about 3 or 4 particular skiers, and the "emotion" argument is about Alain Baxter! You keep sayijng they're well rewarded - I don't think most Snowheads would think so if they got a gander at these guys accounts. Bode Miller & the top Austrians maybe - but our guys? lucky to make a half decent living I should think. And that's starting from a point of £20,000 being a decent living IMO!
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| To start this topic David Goldsmith wrote: |
The performance director of Britain's ski team at the Turin Olympics - Mark Tilston - says that he was "very disappointed" at the results of Alain and Noel Baxter in the races at Sestriere, feeling that they didn't take enough risks ... lacked motivation ... and were not "really hungry".
This report from Scotsman.com
Alain Baxter finished 16th in the slalom. Noel placed 20th.
Is Tilston right? |
Well, sorry to drag the corpse of this thread back onto topic here but I've just heard that, according to Alain Baxter, Mark Tilson absolutely did not make the comments that were printed. So it looks like it's just the papers up to their same old muck spreadin' tricks again.
Perhaps his looking so unimpressed when he's being interviewed by the media has something to do with this sort of thing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
So it looks like it's just the papers up to their same old muck spreadin' tricks again
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Everyone muck spreads, especially indviduals close to the powerbase of minor sports (and ski racing is defo a minor sport in GB). I suspect he did say something, probably without realising that it would get printed verbatum. Let's face it, the Scotsman is hardly gutter press and they don't need to invent this kind of stuff. Anyway, it matters not and changes little as something has to be said surely. The head boy of British ski racing, in whom huge resources are invested (when considered against the meagre overall resources of the sport's governing body), didn’t score a single World Cup point this season. A collection of DNFs and DNQs simply isn’t good enough. I think Noel would have done better and he deserves his chance.
On a related subject, sport is getting £600m Olympic funding as announced in the budget. Does that include winter Olympic sports also?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well they're all at Meribel right now, Tilston, the racers, the whole gang. Shouldn't be too hard to find out more.
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The head boy of British ski racing, in whom huge resources are invested (when considered against the meagre overall resources of the sport's governing body), didn’t score a single World Cup point this season. A collection of DNFs and DNQs simply isn’t good enough. I think Noel would have done better and he deserves his chance. |
Noel barely did better in European Cup races - in fact Alain produced the better top ten results on the EC circuit - so there is no evidence to back up that statement. Alain beat his younger brother by a full second in the Olympics.
Breaking into the top 30 in WC slalom, from a start number that is way back, racing in the ruts left by the world's best, is no mean task. He came within a few hundredths on a couple of occasions. Alain's Olympic run showed that he is capable of competing with the best, given the right conditions.
It's easy to carp and whinge with hindsight, of course, I would expect nothing less from armchair critics who apparently have little clue. Sure Noel and Leuzi are the up and coming Brit slalomers, but there are a lot of other hungry young racers out there from the Alpine states and elsewhere, and the odds are against the Brits making the breakthrough into the world's top 30. Alain deserves praise for having achieved what he has over the years, the 'youngsters' have still got it all to do.
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admin
The Scotsman journalist who quoted Mark Tilston is Andi Robertson, who may or may not have taped Tilston's reported comments. If Tilston didn't say what was reported then his first action would have been to contact the Scotsman and demand a correction.
Did he do this?
The Scotsman is a newspaper with a high reputation, running what is probably one of the best five to ten news websites in this country. I imagine that it would always publish a correction if inaccurate.
You say that " ... I've just heard that, according to Alain Baxter ..."
Do you mean that Alain Baxter spoke to you, or was it someone who spoke to Alain Baxter? Was your source a witness to the discussion between Mark Tilston and Andi Robertson?
It could be that only two people know what Mark Tilston said: Tilston himself, and Andi Robertson. Whatever, if Tilston did not demand a retraction from The Scotsman then one's got to assume that he said what he was reported as saying.
You're saying that The Scotsman is " ... up to their same old muck spreadin' tricks again." Is that fair comment at this juncture? The Scotsman has been an extremely valuable source of news stories for snowHeads over the past couple of years!
What I'd suggest is that you drop Mark Tilston a line directly and invite him to comment directly on The Scotsman's story. If he's really denying the quote then we can ask Andi Robertson how he recorded the reported quote.
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You know it makes sense.
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Far easier, as I suggested above. I'll ask him when I see him later on.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mark Tilston was interviewed by Channel 4 for their skiing coverage last weekend. His comments about performance at the Olympics, and across this season, seemed much more reasonable than was reported by The Scotsman - although that might have been because the Ch 4 interviewer didn't invite Tilston to comment on individual racer's performance and motivation.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar.org.uk, ... can only summise of course , but after the Chemmy press release and the alleged 'Scotsman' comments it would have been in order for someone in SSGB to have had a quiet word about the nature of public utterances. It will be interesting iwhat PG, publishes of any OnTR comments.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmm, the Scotsman as a bastion of truth, that's a new one on me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No one's said that, but if admin is right to relay (from an unidentified source) that Mark Tilston "absolutely did not make the comments that were printed" then presumably Tilston has complained to the paper. Has he?
Here's today's content of The Scotsman: www.scotsman.com
What proportion of that site would you suggest is untruthful, Kramer?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The weather forecast is incorrect.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Horoscope?
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There's no horoscope, marc ............ so you get 100% for irony!
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David Goldsmith, actually Alain spoke to me on the phone and via e-mail, i had forwarded the information to Admin as he asked if i could find out anything. since then i have forwarded him the actual message, you never know it might appear here soon. so you can believe who you want, but personally i would believe the guy that the comments were made about. if these guys had to complain about every peice of junk printed they would never get anything done, oh and the newspapers would probably be a bit thinner too!!!
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I've just listened to the tape of a Tilston interview today. Sounds as if remarks may have been taken out of context for the Scotsman interview. Tilston denies that Alain Baxter's hunger has ever been in question - in fact he praises his commitment, talks of him as a phenomenal, dedicated athlete, a role model for the youngsters. None of which detracts from his disappointment at what he felt in some ways was a missed opportunity at the Olympics, where crucial tenths were lost through what he felt was excessive caution in the first part of Alain's run.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CEM, I'm a bit confused. Andi Robertson was quoting Mark Tilston, not Alain Baxter. The quote, back on 27 Feb (I'm sure The Scotsman won't mind it being reproduced in full) was:
| Quote: |
"I am very disappointed," said Tilston. "I wouldn't say either of them really risked it. Alain put his foot on the gas once it was too late. There is more there in terms of Alain's skiing, he can do better but, to be honest, I am not exactly sure how you go out and get it out of him. The level of skiing they both can ski at, neither of them are really hungry. I don't know what the motivation is that they require.
"I think I can put my hand on my heart and say that everything has been done that could have been done. The coaches and athletes have worked as hard as they could. We skied to our positions today. We skied to our realistic result and that's the bottom line." |
That quote is either correct or incorrect, and the context is clear in the article.
I'm still not clear as to how we know that Mark Tilston believes he was misquoted - where do we get that from?
Maybe Andi Robertson would appreciate an opportunity to stand by his report and reputation, should he wish.
Admin - do you want to make contact?
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When you look at the comments in the light of the Tilston interview we did today - plus Alain Baxter's words in the same Scotsman article:
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I was a bit passive on some parts of the course where I should have been attacking more
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It seems like a lot of fuss over nothing. Basically Tilston said that they didn't go for it in a crucial part of the race, and that it was the one and only opportunity to do so. That 'hunger' was missing. If it doesn't bother Alain (he virtually agreed with Tilston in the above quote), it shouldn't bother us. Storm in a teacup.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I agree. It's just good relevant reportage, assuming the quote is correct.
They say that worthwhile journalism is only apparent if it annoys someone. It's the journalist's job to get unguarded comment, such as Tilston's, which is what Andi Robertson seems to have achieved.
What's the evidence that it's "muck spreadin' ", or a misquote?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Slightly off topic, I doubt the papers, including the Scotsman in this instance, are entirely blameless. They often send inexperienced journos off to report on subjects they know very little about. I've no idea if it was Andi Robertson (all I remember is that he was a Scot, and young), but last year at the Brit Champs in Meribel the Scotsman guy was interviewing Kwame. Remember thinking that he was asking some pretty strange questions. I clarified a few things, whereupon he began asking me about the World Cup, how the points system worked, etc. He may have slid around the mountain a couple of times on holiday, but he just hadn't a clue about the ins and outs of the ski racing world.
That's bound to affect how an interview is reported, the whole tone of a report.
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David Goldsmith,
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CEM, I'm a bit confused. Andi Robertson was quoting Mark Tilston, not Alain Baxter.
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may be, but the comment was about Baxter which is where i gained my information, personally i can't see where you are coming from...are you so sucked in by the press that you can not see past anything written.
to be honest i cant be bothered discussing this any further, you have taken your standpoint and it is as usual YOUR STANDPOINT and everyone else is wrong....why don't you go back to posting the somewhat useful stuff you used to put on to the site.
oh and before you respond, i am sure Admin will contact me if he has a problem with my comments 
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You know it makes sense.
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In presenting news, it's perfectly valid for snowHeads (est. 2004) to get stories from reputable sources such as The Scotsman (est. 1817).
One has to assume that The Scotsman reports stuff faithfully ... until and unless proven otherwise.
All we have so far to say that they haven't reported this accurately is something from someone who was not a witness to the conversation, and nothing from Mark Tilston himself that he had been misquoted.
Best to establish the facts before slagging off The Scotsman, the journalist involved ... or anyone else.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Goldsmith, from my experience of journalists reporting of medical issues, I would expect less than 1% of anything in the media to give an accurate portrayal of the underlying issues. As The Scotsman doesn't have a particularly good reputation for fair and unbiased reporting, I would suggest that this is about accurate.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks, Kramer. That comes across as a perfectly fair and impartial viewpoint.
I wouldn't worry about The Scotsman - or any other reputable paper - being quoted on snowHeads any longer. I mean ... what's the point?
If the owner of this website is willing to report secondhand claims that the paper has misquoted ... and then accuse the paper of "muckspreadin' " ... without no firsthand evidence of this ... then there's little point in reporting stories from reputable news sources on this site.
By the way, some health journalists (quite a few, I believe) are medically qualified. No doubt you find them 99% inaccurate too!
Let's get back to the story here. Was Mark Tilston misquoted or not? Has anyone making that assertion established that simple claim ... from the source himself?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, Only 9 posts to go!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, very few of the ones who publish articles in the general press are, and the standard of reporting is uniformly assessed as abysmal, by most of the medical profession, not just myself. This doesn't include the specialist medical journals.
AFAIK the Scotsman is no more reputable than any of the tabloids, ie not very.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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AFAYK?
Have you ever bought a copy of the paper, or are you just generally thrashing about?
Here's The Scotsman: http://www.scotsman.com
For the benefit of the studio audience, perhaps you'd like to point out some content that you think's disreputable ...
... or, alternatively, kindly point us to a newspaper which meets your exacting standards.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith, I've quite often bought a copy when staying at my Grandmother's in Edinburgh, it's one good point is that it publishes Oor Wullie and The Broons. I've not read it for four or five years, but I have read it, and in my opinion it certainly didn't used to be a bastion of outstanding journalism.
The papers that I feel are slightly better than the others when it comes to reporting non-partisan issues are The Telegraph, The Guardian, and The Independant. The Bad Science column in The Times deserves special mention as well.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, from my experience of journalists reporting of medical issues, I would expect less than 1% of anything in the media to give an accurate portrayal of the underlying issues. As The Scotsman doesn't have a particularly good reputation for fair and unbiased reporting, I would suggest that this is about accurate. |
I'd say the same thing about coverage of education as well (although I've never bothered to do an actual survey, so couldn't really claim with any precision about the actual proportion of good education journalism). Honourable mention to the one exception who seems to know his stuff: Mike Baker (BBC).
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So that's health and education getting a fairly poor rating then.
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3 out of 10 for translation (irrespective of specialised or even semi-specialised subject). The discrepancies between original quotes/articles in French and alleged renderings in English are frequently hilarious (and worrying at the same time).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PG wrote: |
| Slightly off topic, I doubt the papers, including the Scotsman in this instance, are entirely blameless. They often send inexperienced journos off to report on subjects they know very little about. I've no idea if it was Andi Robertson (all I remember is that he was a Scot, and young) ... |
It was almost certainly not Andi Robertson. He has been writing about ski racing for both the Glasgow Herald and Scotsman for three years, and used to work for Snowsport GB.
More to come ...
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David Goldsmith, gawd's sake, who cares, off on one of your crusades again? 
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FAQ
