 Poster: A snowHead
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| richmond wrote: |
| eEvans, depends what you mean by 'a good loser'. Anyone who shows that they care about losing is a loser. Of course you should care, but you shouldn't show it, win or lose. It's bad enough losing without showing that it matters to you, for God's sake. If you win, the least you can do is to be gracious enough to pretend that it doesn't matter. |
Totally the converse of what you suggest. 'Winners' hate 'losing''. It's not about what you 'show' but what you 'feel' - and showing 'good grace' in defeat is not (in my book) a necessary pre-requisite for a successful sportsman - although very 'media-friendly' in the UK.
| Quote: |
| What's with all the heart on your sleeve, show your feelings crapola? |
???? _ Can you explain that - in a European language ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Top sportsmen and women are in their 20s (generally) - not much more than kids (sorry, 20 somethings). I don't see why we should expect better than average social graces (however you define that) from them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| eEvans wrote: |
| richmond wrote: |
| eEvans, depends what you mean by 'a good loser'. Anyone who shows that they care about losing is a loser. Of course you should care, but you shouldn't show it, win or lose. It's bad enough losing without showing that it matters to you, for God's sake. If you win, the least you can do is to be gracious enough to pretend that it doesn't matter. |
Totally the converse of what you suggest. 'Winners' hate 'losing''. It's not about what you 'show' but what you 'feel' - and showing 'good grace' in defeat is not (in my book) a necessary pre-requisite for a successful sportsman - although very 'media-friendly' in the UK.
| Quote: |
| What's with all the heart on your sleeve, show your feelings crapola? |
???? _ Can you explain that - in a European language ? |
I think that we're half agreeing. I agree with you that to succeed you have to care about whether or not you succeed. I also believe (strongly), and I think that you disagree, that whatever you're feeling, you shouldn't show it; you should react outwardly the same to winning or losing. Triumphalism and moping about are the reactions of peple who are, in the end, losers, so far as I'm concerned. It has nothing whatsoever to do with media friendliness, and it applies to us all. Your feelings of triumph or loss are personal to you and should be kept that way. I'm not merely talking about losing 'with good grace'. I'm talking about not showing your feelings to the world, and about recognising that success and failure are transitory and, usually, of importance to no-one but you.
In the case of losing there is, for me, the extra matter of not wishing to give my opponent the satisfaction of showing that I care.
As to the gibberish at the end of my post, it translates as "I don't like people who show their feelings, positive or negative, in public.". It wasn't directed particularly at your comments.
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I was always brought up to be competative in sports, I can still remember the first time I beat my Father at anything- I was 14 and it was a board game (Totopoly - like Monopoly , but with a horse race). As a child I was never allowed to win, I had to do it for myself. I think I still carry that over a bit, and I'll try to beat my opposition (real or percieved) at any game. I'll do my best and always be dissapointed with myself if I loose.
If I actually lose at something that means something (even a little); a golf game for money or a climb up a steep hill on the mountain bikes, I'll be dissapointed and the people who beat me will know it.
If I was in a big competition, in anything, and lost - I'd be in a hell of a bad mood for a long time. I couldn't if I tried (and I'm not sure how hard I'd try in those circumstances) put on a brave face for anyone.
Because of this character defect I can sympathise with "bad losers" as seen on TV. I think it's normal, it's the others I think are odd.
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PG, my comments above were not about Baxter. He might be the Highlands' answer to Coco the Clown for all I know, I've never heard him being interviewed.
There is a relationship between hiding your emotions and being gracious. It is not gracious to be triumphant when you win. You feel triumphant, so you try to hide that emotion. QED. It is positively pathetic (as well as ungracious) to show disappointment in defeat, so you try to hide that emotion. QED again.
I agree with you about interviews. There's nothing wrong with telling a half wit where to get off, in public or in private.
marc gledhill, but do you show that you're disappointed? I'm sure that most people feel disappointed (at least) when they lose, and so as a spectator one sympathises with someone who has lost, but not (in my case, anyway) with someone who is so weak as to show their disappointment. Similarly, one can imagine to an extent the joy and so on of someone who has won, but one doesn't want to see a lot of air punching and yelling.
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richmond, In your 'QED' I'm missing the logical step between showing disappointment in defeat and being either weak, pathetic or ungracious. If that were the case you've just condemned virtually every modern sportsman, at some point in their career, into your personal pigeonhole of inadequacy.
Triumphalism is a different issue - in my view it's just as bad to rub it in as it is to blame others for your own shortcomings. But I wasn't aware that we were discussing either of these. I thought we talking about someone simply letting it slip in public that he was sad about not having performed better. So what - he wouldn't be human if he weren't disappointed, and as others have said, he wouldn't be a successful athlete either. In my book he's just being honest. On the other hand, covering up your feelings (of disappointment) is being false for the sake of some spurious quality akin to 'jolly good show' Britishness.
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marc gledhill, Thanks for explaining my views succinctly for richmond, . I'm afraid that I consider richmond,'s view very 'public school'. My problem.
Bottom line is that criticising Alain Baxter for his 'on camera' reactions is totally irrelevant to the man's competitive ability or success.
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I really can't go with this idea that we should condemn "good losers". Showing generosity to someone who is better than you at a sport shows a healthy attitude toward competition, and a respect for your opposition. It's a sport, not life and death.
Professional athletes, whose livelihood depends on this generally realise this. They lose more often than they win. - Especially in ski racing. Herman Maier may have won over 50 WC races, but how many has he NOT won. - And he's one of the best ever. There are racers on the WC circuit who have NEVER won, and who never will. Does this mean that they should give up altogether?
I should say that there's one thing worse than a bad loser, and that's a bad winner. The only consolation that one has after being stuffed by someone who crows about it is the private satisfaction of knowing that sometime, somewhere, someone's going to do it to them.
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Acacia, I don't think anyone was criticising the "generosity to the better man/woman on the day" element of good losing? Just the suggestion that revealing disappointment in your own performance is somehow ungracious. If that's the case, then the Herminator is one of the most ungracious racers you'll ever come across!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't see any problem is showing your emotions. richmond, to be honest it sounds as though you've never competed in any sport to a high level from wht you're saying. The amount of effort that goes into a run in the Olympics - and we're talking about years of actual suffering in pursuit of this - (John Hill is a .....- well never mind I'd better not say what I'm thinking). I think that to pretend it doesn't matter for the cameras is ludicrous. Of course be as gracious as possible, but the stiff upper lip rubbish is pathetic. It's reulted in more dysfunctional men and families than almost anything. eEvans, Not your problem - clearly more of us agree with you than richmond, .
Alain may have been disappointed, but I see no reason why he souldn't show it. PG Princess Anne told the press where to get off in 1972! Good for her.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| halfhand wrote: |
Isn't Tilston's opinion at odds with the British Chef de Mission( whatever that is). I read in a report that he was satisfied with the performances and medal returns for the amount spent (£2.3m on winter olympics and 1 medal - £30m on summer olympics and 13 medals, roughly the same cost per medal).
Quite honestly I don't think we can expect an amazing medal haul when you consider what the British team is up against in terms of other country's facilities. I think all our competitors did their best and did really well |
Konrad Bartelski made an interesting comparison on 5live the week before the olympics defending calls of minority sports and underperforming etc. Can't remember the figures but basically he said:
Amount of funding received by All England Tennis - Lots
Amount of funding received by GB winter sports - Not much.
Number of champions produced - The same...
Errr...so not sure what that proves, but thought it was a good point 
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| easiski wrote: |
| I don't see any problem is showing your emotions. richmond, to be honest it sounds as though you've never competed in any sport to a high level from wht you're saying. The amount of effort that goes into a run in the Olympics - and we're talking about years of actual suffering in pursuit of this - (John Hill is a .....- well never mind I'd better not say what I'm thinking). I think that to pretend it doesn't matter for the cameras is ludicrous. Of course be as gracious as possible, but the stiff upper lip rubbish is pathetic. It's reulted in more dysfunctional men and families than almost anything. |
No, I haven't competed in sport at a high level (or a low level, really; I'm not particularly talented at sports). I do a fair amount of competitive, 'head to head' professional work, intellectual rather than sporting, which has parallels with sporting competiton, FWIW. That's not really the point, 'though. The fact that someone may have put a huge amount of effort into preparing for the Olympics or any other event is not the point either (I've seen my son fighting back tears after being on the losing side in his rugby club's B team; it matters desperately to some people at whatever level they compete). The cameras have got nothing to do with it. It's about you, the competitor, your view of yourself, your self respect and your relationship with the rest of the world.
There is nothing pathetic about the 'stiff upper lip' (your expression) thing, and the statement that 'It's resulted in more dysfunctional men and families than almost anything.' is so far as I know without foundation. Apart from anything else, I'm talking about public, not private, behaviour. Of course a disappointed competitor is going to share their disappointment with their family and close friends (lucky people!) but not with the rest of us, please. It seems every bit as likely that the current view that you should show your emotions at every opportunity, let it all hang, better out than in, is responsible for dysfunctional families as that 'stiff upper lipism is (I don't think it's either).
If you lose, you should wear the mask, grit the teeth and stiffen the upper lip (not an easy thing to do while wearing a mask and gritting the teeth, but sport is all about challenges, isn't it?), offer the manly or womanly handshake, try to look reasonably cheerful and speak pleasantly to all. Which is pretty much how most of the Winter Olympics competitors I saw conducted themselves.
Surely part (a large part, I believe) of the benefit of sport at any level is, as I said in an earlier post, learning to meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same.
| easiski wrote: |
| eEvans, Not your problem - clearly more of us agree with you than richmond, . |
Certainly not eEvans's problem any more than it's mine. It's not anybody's. I'm interested in his/her characterisation of my views as 'very 'public school''; I don't think of myself in that way, but there you go. Regrettably, it's probably true that I'm in a minority. Place is going to the dogs.
| easiski wrote: |
| Alain may have been disappointed, but I see no reason why he souldn't show it. |
I do (he may not have shown it, I don't know, but if he did, he shouldn't have). Well, it depends what you mean by showing it, really. I don't expect someone who has just failed to achieve what they hoped for to turn cartwheels and start telling knock knock jokes, but they should be pleasant and hide their disappointment.
| easiski wrote: |
| PG Princess Anne told the press where to get off in 1972! Good for her. |
Indeed, good for her, although I'm not sure that praying Princess Anne in aid of anything is a good move. I bet she doesn't show her disappointment in public when she loses, 'though (but I wouldn't want to be her dog/husband/servant when it happens).
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I don't watch much competitive skiing, as I find it boring.
So, I am not saying anything about Mr. Baxter.
However
Victorian values
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If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
………………………………................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
American football values
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Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.
Sir Alf Ramsey, as opposed to the current Manchester United manager.
I will stick with Sir Alf.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| eEvans wrote: |
| richmond wrote: |
Certainly not eEvans's problem any more than it's mine. It's not anybody's. I'm interested in his/her characterisation of my views as 'very 'public school''; I don't think of myself in that way, but there you go. Regrettably, it's probably true that I'm in a minority. Place is going to the dogs. |
I'm sure that easiski will respond to your points. Suffice to say that I am in total agreement with her points, but I will respond to your direct question to me. (PS - I'm male)
I could have used any of the following adjectives as representative of your views :- 'British', 'Victorian' or 'Public School' . I chose the latter as it is IMHO only in these seats of learning that such values as yours are still consistently taught and held. Britain has (thankfully) left the Victorian era behind and although the ROW still see as 'Stiff Upper Lip' they are over-generalising. You have a right to hold and state whatever views you choose - they are not mine! It's also very 'public school' to suggest that standards have fallen when others disagree
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I guessed that you're a bloke, but you never know. Obviously we differ in our views on this, that's fine, enough said. Maybe my views in this area are old fashioned (I don't think that my views are generally particularly old fashioned), but that is not in itself a complete condemnation.
Your comment that 'It's also 'very 'public school'' to suggest that standards have fallen when others disagree' is interesting, and widens the discussion from sporting behaviour to all sorts of areas. (I don't think that I did say that they'd fallen; the 'going to the dogs' remark wasn't a serious one, just trying to establish my 'public school buffer' credentials).
Whether or not it's 'very 'public school'' to maintain one's standards in the face of criticism (I don't beleive that public schools have a monopoly on that, but it's possible), I think that to change them simply because people disagree with them leads to the moral relativism which is responsible for many of our present woes. It is manifest in the willingness of people to accept poor standards in others, to refuse to say, 'That attitude is wrong and you should change it.', which has undesirable consequences for all of us.
I think that I shall bow out of this discussion now, as I've said everything I can think of to say on the subject. One's views on these sort of questions are gut reactions (perhaps conditioned by one's schooling and upbringing, who knows?), and are in the end not susceptible to rational argument.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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richmond, I don't think anyone who hasn't competed at a high level in sport (or been closely associated with those who have) can actually imagine what the athletes go through. The amount of pain they put up with and the sheer dogged determination to be a champion. the fact that most of them never actually get there is not the point. The desire is the same whether it's Alain Baxter, Hermann Maier or Jo Bloggs. To deal with the training and privation required means that the desire has to be abnormally strong. Therefore, the disappointment if you don't feel you've done your best on "the day" is also abnormally strong.
I really do think that the Victorian values of stiff upper lip are apalling. How many generations of men were unable to show any sort of affection or feelings because of it - it wasn't "manly" to show your feelings, and consequently many families were brought up with the children starved for hugs and affection. this has never afflicted the more southerly european nations or the middle eastern etc. It's a perculiarly british phenomenon. It has nothing to do with Rudyard Kipling's wondeerful poem either, because we're not treating triumph and disaster, and anyway the world is a different place now. Anyone who doubts that sport is just as important as religion or politics hasn't paid much attention to modern football!! 
The press stick microphones under athletes noses at the most inopportune moments these days - I feel really sorry for them. One of the 4 x 100m squad was crying and choking back the tears at Athens while Sally Gunnell was trying to interview him. fortunately she's been there and was sympathetic and quickly moved on. In Princess Anne's case (I don't think we paid her to ride at the Olympics) a journalist stuck a microphone under her nose and said "why don't you just carry on" when sh'ed just has a really crunching fall. She famously told him to "naff off" - good for her I say.
Ditto Nigel Smith - a very reasonable downhiller for GB around 20 years ago. Got to the bottom of the DH and David Vine says"couldn't you have tried harder?" I believe Nigel decked him (not that I'm supporting that reaction), but I don't think it was OTT given that he'd just skied to within an inch of his life, was shattered and disappointed, probably couldn't breathe, was likely terrified out of his wits
No, sorry - I don't think showing your disappointment is necessarily a bad thing - it may even help non-athletes to realise what a lot's gone into getting there.
OK rant over - I'll shut up now.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, I shallnow immediately break my promise to shut up.
Just a couple of points.
I did say that my comments referred to public, not private, behaviour. I agree with you that undue repression of one's views and feelings within the family, for example, can be bad. I'm all in favour of displaying affection (and the opposite, when the need arises) to my nearest and dearest. That's a different thing to what we were talking about before.
So far as the pressure on top sportspeople is concerned, I'm sure that you're right, I cannot imagine what it's like. Nevertheless, if they can't cope with losing without losing their self respect and dignity as well, perhaps they should get out of the kitchen. As I said before, from what I see of snow sportspeople on the TV, they seem to be pretty good, win or lose.
Now I really shall shut up. Probably.
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I have a smidgeon of sympathy for Richmond.
Clearly, it is important how we react collectively when things go badly wrong (pestilence, war, natural disaster etc.) - which is why the Victorians lauded self-reliance and self-control. Richmond, I think, believes that we have lost some of this ability to face adversity without undue complaint and that "standards have slipped"...
I don't think he's 100% right, but nor that - like easiski - we can just dismiss the stoical tradition as "appalling" and quite wrong!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DavidS wrote: |
I have a smidgeon of sympathy for Richmond.
I don't think he's 100% right |
Neither does he, but this is a web forum.
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Oh dear, I had promised myself enough on the subject had already been said as well; unfortunately it is rather interesting how 'sport' is portrayed even within a 'sport-related' BB!
Latchigo, Sorry - I don't understand your analogy (ies) ... I remember (sir) Matt Busby 'cos I'm an old git. He was (until the early 70s) the ultimate 'winner' and he went through his own personal and public 'hell'.
richmond, ( Many apologies for my continuing ). I would suspect that easiski and I are as one on this. The problem with instilling private v public behaviours is that it just too difficult in the young. Difficult enough understanding enforced 'adult' values without the complication of that. Kids are naturally honest - it takes grown-ups to make them behave to 'standards'.
I played sport to a very average level but it really is 'full-on', even in the 70s and 80s it got into your private life in an obtrusive way - I can only guess at today's intensity - but yes , I would do it all again ( please!!!!)
DavidS, Interesting observations, and strange how personal views are panning-out. I suspect it is the 'oldies' are those who are advocating open ( and I suggest 'modern') values. I will never see 50 again !
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| eEvans wrote: |
| I will never see 50 again ! |
I shall see it in about 13 months, so it's not entirely age related.
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| eEvans wrote: |
Latchigo, Sorry - I don't understand your analogy (ies) ... I remember (sir) Matt Busby 'cos I'm an old git. He was (until the early 70s) the ultimate 'winner' and he went through his own personal and public 'hell'.
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My reference was to Fergie not Busby. Busby was no curmudgeon. He always behaved well in public. He was in the Sir Alf style.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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balls. totally.
Life is a competition, there will always be winners and losers. So everyone's saying you shouldn't say any emotion when winning or losing. The whole point of it is to be either pleased or dissapointed. Both emotions encourage you to do better next time.
Never hide your emotions, keeping things in is not the way. All this crap about being 'British' does my head in... I'm not 'anything' just 'myself' so I'll act to my standards.
But then again one of my principles is there is no point in beating about the bush, if i want to say something i'll say it straight.
I know if I had just worked my socks off and a journalist/press guy/interviwer critisized me I would knock the living crap out them, because they deserve it!
So as long as you aren't over emotional like beating up a whole team, it's fine to show emotion!!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, I don't remember Nigel ever decking David Vine, but it certainly would have been possible! I do remember him attacking one of our coaches, Jimmy Smith - a fairly brave if foolhardy move! Of course different athletes show their disappointment in differing ways and amounts (some not at all). The best try to learn from it, and then put it behind them and move their attention on to the next challenge.
JohnHill (or whoever he really is) thinks ski-racing is a nice easy life - perhaps he might like to volunteer to fore-run the Hahnenkamm next season then?
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Martin Bell, Well - Nigel claimed it, but maybe he was exaggerating! At any rate attacking Jimmy Smith - wheew - not a good move as you say! I agree, absolutely - John Hill should forerun the Hahnenkamm.
I agree that you have to try to put your disappointment behind you - but I see no reason for people not to show that disappointment, and I cannot see it as a loss of self respect (as has been suggested) if they do. I don't suggest Nigel's or Princess Anne's actions are necessarily ideal, but they are understanable IMO.
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You know it makes sense.
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Martin Bell, I don't believe for one second that it's an easy life. The point I was trying to make was that nobody is at all interested in hearing from "professional" ski racers about how tough their life is. Real pros don't burden us watching public with all that heart string tugging stuff. Whichever way you look at it, the likes of our elite skiers have a priviledged existence.
Hanenkamm... a cake walk, I did it in well under an hour last tuesday.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
| nobody is at all interested in hearing from "professional" ski racers about how tough their life is. |
Any who thinks that is well out of touch. The general public likes nothing better than to read about the trials and tribulations of sportsmen and women, or high achievers from any walk of life, come to that. It helps them to feel less alienated from lifestyles to which most people can never aspire. It makes those concerned seem more human and accessible. Remove the emotion, and you remove a major part of the reality.
We've done the stiff upper lip nonsense before. Perhaps you went to the same school as richmond .
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Poster: A snowHead
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| JohnHill wrote: |
| The point I was trying to make was that nobody is at all interested in hearing from "professional" ski racers about how tough their life is. |
I am! I think part of the problem with TV coverage of ski racing is that we don't get to see the racers as individuals, just a series of lycra-clad figures charging down the mountain. It's impersonal, and means there can be no connection between viewer and athlete. A bit more coverage of the racers as human beings, including what their life is like druing training and competitions, will increase the level of interest from the watching public, in my opinion.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PG, rob@rar.org.uk, of course we all want the background stuff but there is a huge difference between the athlete saying "it's so tough" (like Baxter did) and, say, a TV journalist reporting on that athlete's ups and downs and telling us onlookers how it really is. I don't remember Hermann Maier giving downbeat TV interviews after his accident. He was all steely determination to put it behind him somehow and get back to the top. Fact is, by any measure of "tough", the life of one of our elite skiers isn't.
easiski, Martin Bell, when Martin used to ski the Hahnenkamm they pisted out all the bumps, swept away all the heavy stuff and put up ruddy great crash nets. Last tuesday I had to do it zero vis, chopped up powder, very irregular moguls and was made to stop for lunch half way down. It was so tough.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| JohnHill wrote: |
| PG, rob@rar.org.uk, of course we all want the background stuff but there is a huge difference between the athlete saying "it's so tough" (like Baxter did) and, say, a TV journalist reporting on that athlete's ups and downs and telling us onlookers how it really is. |
Yes - a big difference. The former rings true, it's the real thing from someone who has lived the experience, the latter is often a load of inaccurate, sensationalist bull from someone who usually hasn't a clue "how it really is".
Nothing factual about your subjective measure of what represents 'tough'. If you haven't lived it, you're hardly qualified to comment anyway.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
If you haven't lived it, you're hardly qualified to comment anyway.
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You're absolutely right. Thanks for reminding me that, just like you, I really am only a world class skier in my dreams.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Speak for yourself JohnHill, personally I've never dreamt of being a competitive skier. But I do spend a lot of time with racers from top to bottom of the spectrum, and they've earned my respect. It's all too easy - and rather a pathetic, cheap shot - to sit in a comfortable armchair and knock those who've achieved things you can never aspire to, in my view.
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| PG wrote: |
| It's all too easy - and rather a pathetic, cheap shot - to sit in a comfortable armchair and knock those who've achieved things you can never aspire to, in my view. |
That is one of the main attractions of sport for many, I would guess the great majority of sports fans. Since it is they who, indirectly or directly, keep professional sprt in business, pro sprtsmen should be grateful for these carping, whingeing b*stards.
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I'm not so sure that they represent the great majority of sports fans. Still, however numerous they are, helping to pay the bills doesn't make the b*stards any less carping or whingeing, and good luck to the ungrateful sports pros that tell them so ...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PG, I should have said 'sports watchers'.
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