 Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
and I think Steve House was sailing close to the wind. |
And his clients missed seeing the “stunning scenery”.
But at least they did get to choose what to do ahead of time, which the Italian didn’t get to have ANY input at all!
I was surprised to see the House group’s picture of them at the bottom of the serpentine putting on skins. At that point, the weather had come in, way ahead of forecast. They were what, half way? They opted to continue rather than turn around. Perhaps turning around was no better? If so, that was a very risky situation they had CHOSEN to be in: no bail out option as early as the half way point.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DB wrote: |
| The storm came approx. 4 hours earlier than expected. |
Maybe I missed it - is that actually correct?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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House took a risk he could have avoided, but he mitigated it. In a white out even UK summits (Cross Fell or Ingleborough come to mind: flat so navigation tools required) can be serious, you'd not willingly go there in those conditions, but it's not something someone like House would break into a sweat over. They didn't say, but someone with his background would have had multiple navigation devices and multiple comms devices charged, tested and distributed about his group. He'd have ensured that they all knew what to do should he take a tumble. He'd have had at least one backup pair of goggles (FFS!).
The Spiegel article is a useful reminder. Some of the group had been with Castiglioni before so presumably knew what they were getting, and getting into. The lady survivor also had a mobile phone, although by the time she tried to use it she was too cold, I think. It reads like a slow motion train crash.
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Rescue wasn't going to come from the air in a white out, it would have had to be on foot. Their plans should have prepared to either extract themselves should someone break a leg (would require navigation devices and probably more skill than they had), or to bivvy overnight (would require comms devices, or navigation devices to get out to make the call-out, and decent bivvy skills). It's very basic stuff. The map-and-compass French guys got away with it, simply by finding themselves somewhere decent to bivvy.
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I assume House also had a smaller group? Hadn’t really picked up on the size of the group until I watched the start of the documentary
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Arno wrote: |
| I assume House also had a smaller group? Hadn’t really picked up on the size of the group until I watched the start of the documentary |
2 clients I think. House didn't know the route as he doesn't like doing those kind of tours but is clearly very experienced and had reccied as far as he could the day before. Arriving at the hut at 11amish clearly gave him a much great margin if things had proved tricky as his clients would not have spent 12 hours wandering around a 3000m plateau in a hurricane.
He must have seen other groups on the same route so did he ever wonder where they were heading? Not his responsibility I know.
The french with map and compass were no better than the lost Italian guide and in the end had to follow him, or at least follow the client with a working gps.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Arriving at the hut at 11amish clearly gave him a much great margin if things had proved tricky as his clients would not have spent 12 hours wandering around a 3000m plateau in a hurricane. |
The other groups weren’t far behind. Had they had s GPS track to follow like his group, they wouldn’t have been too far behind him. All safely in the hut like his group.
| Quote: |
He must have seen other groups on the same route so did he ever wonder where they were heading? Not his responsibility I know.
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He would naturally assume they turned back and descended as he offered to his own clients?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 8-05-23 15:20; edited 1 time in total
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| valais2 wrote: |
| Look for the deep cause (there may be more than one). |
Always a good advice. I propose wrongful pride, stubbornness and a good chunk of blatant incompetence on the part of the guide.
The documentary offers some interesting new info - at least I didn't know about before: the GPS track around the glacier; the existence of a third group (Steve House + clients); the water line; how the French managed to survive; that they knew about and tried the alternative southern way; where Mario came to rest.
Unfortunately it imho doesn't address the elephant in the room sufficiently: Should carrying a real GPS be named good practice for guides? As of 2018 it wasn't - and afaik it still isn't.
About this:
- In the re-enactment the film crew used a Garmin GPSMap device, while in reality Tommaso had a Garmin Etrex Legend on him. I mention this, because I own a Garmin Etrex Vista Hcx for many years, which is basically the same as the Legend (only one step better with barometrical altimeter and magnetic compass added) and I can only speak to this really. For those of you who've never worked with an outdoor GPS, the Garmin Etrex series are the most basic real outdoor devices. Pricetag new about €150-200; GPSMap is about double that amount.
- With a good set of fresh batteries it works around 27-29h in minimal use - that is just showing the map, your position and your tracks, no logging; it's quite clunky, weighs in at ~210g and, sad but true, there was/is no good holster for carrying the device on a rucksack (I own the one designed to do the job and could go into detail; that has changed for later versions of the Etrex as they came up with a slider plate - fun fact: it's pretty much the only upgrade, but hey, what's fifteen years in computer tech anyway?  ). Takes quite a while to start; you can't leave it on in your pocket, as this drains the battery really quickly; compared to a smartphone, it's a lot of fuff to download/create tracks other than logging, as you need a PC for that. Screen is only 2.2"/5,6cm and, unlike on your phone, you can't really swipe around the map as that takes ages because of the weak engine, so until the neighbouring mapsheet is established you will have already forgotten what you've seen on the one before. All put together, even for navigating purposes alone using a phone is so much better. Which makes bringing a dedicated GPS seem like dead weight.
- There is one strong point, though: It works under all conditions, even in a blizzard - and smartphones with capacitive displays just don't. Because the Etrex (as well as the GPSMap) doesn't have a touchscreen. Mario made a major mistake not to bring one of these (after walking out into a foehn storm in the first place). And then he doubled down on that, after his phone (and all the other ones - let's get real here, everyone carried a phone, at least some of them must have had offline maps) failed in bad weather, not to immedeately accept Tommaso's. This mistake alone cost them hours and caused major exhaustment.
- This is when tragedy strikes. With a working GPS like the Etrex you could reach probably any hut in the alps, even in a blizzard. Except for Vignettes, if you come down from the Pigne d'Arolla. Because that would additionally require either having a track or, much better, not using the free vector OSM (the one Tommaso had), but the Swiss Topo raster map, which not only shows all the cliffs, but both routes, the one by the cairn as well as the southern bad weather route in detail. Unfortunately, this map, while now provided free of charge by the Swiss National Geographic Institute for Android/Apple download (and quite cheap back than), is around CHF250 for Garmin. It's a map quest they couldn't solve with the map they had.
Have a look at the Swiss Topo raster map:
https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=de&topic=schneesport&bgLayer=voidLayer&layers_opacity=0.85,0.5,0.2,0.6,0.6,1,0.7,0.8,0.8,1&layers_visibility=true,false,true,true,true,false,true,true,true,false&E=2601705.90&N=1092820.64&zoom=8&layers=ch.swisstopo.pixelkarte-farbe-winter,ch.swisstopo.hangneigung-ueber_30,ch.swisstopo-karto.hangneigung,ch.bafu.wrz-jagdbanngebiete_select,ch.bafu.wrz-wildruhezonen_portal,ch.bazl.gebirgslandeplaetze,ch.swisstopo.schneeschuhwandern,ch.swisstopo-karto.schneeschuhrouten,ch.swisstopo-karto.skitouren,ch.bav.haltestellen-oev&catalogNodes=2352
Same place on vector OSM (Important note: They have added the route by the cairn on the map, which hadn't been there at the time of the accident! Would have given them a fair shot!):
https://osm.org/go/0CM06oDt?layers=Y
- You see, with the Swiss Topo on a working outdoor GPS in your pocket you don't need to be Mr. Superguide "I-climbed-the-Pigne-the-afternoon-before-to-lay-a-track-and-then-exchanged-tracks-with-another-guide-so-i-got-both-parts" (What kind of bs is that anyway? Does he suggest you need a track to swap a track and he was prudent and savvy and strong enough to go up there   ? And therefore his guiding was still responsable, unlike Mario's?)
| davidof wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| I assume House also had a smaller group? Hadn’t really picked up on the size of the group until I watched the start of the documentary |
2 clients I think.
He must have seen other groups on the same route so did he ever wonder where they were heading? Not his responsibility I know.
The french with map and compass were no better than the lost Italian guide and in the end had to follow him, or at least follow the client with a working gps. |
It truely sounds like that in the beginning ("...two regulars wanted to do the Haute Route..."), but later in the video you can see that House had in fact six clients: two older guys, three younger guys and a women (from 46:28min onwards).
I wonder as well. He surely knew they were there on top of Serpentine. He filmed them there, and the athmosphere must have already been tense from the get go. So it was clear the others were trying to bridge over to Vignettes as well. And it was clear that climbing down the steep pitch of Serpentine wasn't really an option. He then didn't want to band together with them which is very understandable on so many levels. Wasn't really nice though, was it?
I wonder, if he had considered talking to the guardian: "There were fourteen people with us on top of Serpentine, did they arrive or are there any no shows?" But then again the guardian might have answered: "Interesting. Why didn't you come together?" 
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| Layne wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| The storm came approx. 4 hours earlier than expected. |
Maybe I missed it - is that actually correct? |
No, it isn't.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
Given most skiers would happily yo-yo up and down the same mountain many many times, albeit with motorized assistance of lifts, seems to me most should be just as happy spend a couple of nights in the same hut and tour around it? I can’t imagine the “route” being the only skiable path. That would eliminate the constant packing and unpacking. Or any uncertainty of weather in a 6 day long tour. All logistic issue that makes a holiday more stressful than necessary.
The “fantastic experience” you had, was it being in the mountains (ski touring, and/or staying in the huts)? Or was it really about reaching your destination at the scheduled date? You can have the former without the latter. That’s all I’m saying.
Or as a question, how much of the latter improves upon the former? |
I believe you miss the point. Touring around a hut or being on a journey are two fundamentally different experiences. The Haute Route is a journey. Being on a journey does something to you.
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| Tristero wrote: |
He then didn't want to band together with them which is very understandable on so many levels. Wasn't really nice though, was it?
I wonder, if he had considered talking to the guardian: "There were fourteen people with us on top of Serpentine, did they arrive or are there any no shows?" But then again the guardian might have answered: "Interesting. Why didn't you come together?" |
I can understand that two guides and 20 clients may have been hard to manage. I expect House was already concerned at this point and saw the best option for his team to reach the Vignettes as fast as possible but it is odd that he didn't mention this to the guardian. I would have done although with flying impossible it would probably have changed nothing. House or the other guides were hardly likely to head out on a search in the teeth of a storm.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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So yeah, I think it's interesting to talk about this stuff as learning about things which go wrong helps avoid making similar mistakes and all that.
| Tristero wrote: |
| Same place on vector OSM (Important note: They have added the route by the cairn on the map, which hadn't been there at the time of the accident! Would have given them a fair shot! ... |
On my phone, for which I have paid extra for contour lines, OSM is similar to your linked version.
Despite being up to date, the mobile version includes a couple of sketchy looking dotted tracks which don't map onto the Swiss route or the video images of the winter route.
There's nothing there which is much use outside the pub.
But the French guys also had a paper map, likely the Swiss map you linked.
That didn't help them on the way up or the way down either.
The conclusion that House's choice to acquire an actual recent GPS track for that section was good seems unavoidable.
Other approaches all failed.
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| Tristero wrote: |
| [House] Wasn't really nice though, was [he]? I wonder, if he had considered talking to the guardian: "There were fourteen people with us on top of Serpentine, did they arrive or are there any no shows?" But then again the guardian might have answered: "Interesting. Why didn't you come together?" |
That's a different point. I'm surprised you make it.
He did see the other groups at the start of that ascent, but he was in front and they didn't pass him.
It's dark. There's a white out. There's an exposed ~4,000m peak, in crevassed terrain with significant new snow fall. A guided group you didn't know the destination of may or may not be out there somewhere. They may be in Arolla, or on the way back to the Dix. Anywhere. If they were lost or hurt, they would just bivvy down to wait it out, whilst calling for help. Their guide would have realized that was a possibility in those conditions. The heli can't legally fly in a white out for obvious reasons. You can't sensibly search mountains in zero visibility. The Italian guide knew all that and must have planned for the contingency. No one would be out there without communications, and yet no one had called for help. No one could expect to find people in such an area in zero visibility, and you could not assume they'd be within sniffing distance of the bog.
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Superguide? Well, in this I think the guy came out pretty well. I think most guides would have decided to stay home, but he did his job effectively and safely.
And then the next morning he saved the remainder of the other party. I know which guide I'd pick.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
No one would be out there without communications, and yet no one had called for help.
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That’s how I would see it too. Neither the guide nor the French group had tried to call for help. Without them giving an approximate location, where would the rescue party go to look?
The fact they were only a short distance from the hut, we only know it afterward. The potential rescuers didn’t know that the night in question.
On a separate note, no show without cancelling a reservation, for remote hut/campsite of high demand, seemed to be a wide-spread practice by the general public in both side of the pond. It’s really an unfortunate practice that demand a look into ways to discourage. I once camped in a beautiful water front campsite on a lovely day. 3 of the 6 campsites were unoccupied despite all site were “full” the day before (and the 6 months prior). These campsites were so high in demand they got booked up within a couple days after they’re available for booking. Yet, 50% of them gone unused on a perfect day. What a waste!
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Finished watching the documentary last night. Quite a difficult thing to watch. Thoughts:
1. I doubt Steve House would have taken it on if he knew how it would turn out. That said, the prep he did got him and his team through. I don’t think anyone is saying a guide has to physically do a route the day before for his clients. But having what he knew to be a perfect GPS track must have helped.
2. I can’t see that going back out from the Vignettes and searching would have led to a different result. I remember being in a hut with a guide during a storm. He was expecting a friend to come up to the hit that day and became worried about him. All he could do (I say “all” but it seemed pretty brave to me) was head out and cross the glacier outside the hut to see if he could see a skin track. Any more would have been incredibly risky and like searching for a needle in a haystack. As it happened the guide’s mate stayed at a hut lower down the mountain. Mobile communications weren’t what they are today so no way to call ahead.
It’s also worth noting that there are routes off the Brenay Plateau other than down to the Vignettes. In theory there are 2 ways down to the Chanrion Hut from there. Looking for someone up there after dark in a storm is just not a reasonable thing to be expected to do
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You know it makes sense.
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I think the reality is, in those conditions, whatever navigation aids you were using, you would be at risk. You could drop a device and never find it. Reading a map and following multiple bearings and getting it right to within a few metres . . .good luck. When just a few metres here or there can be significant and make you doubt yourself.
I've done some very easy randonee and I like to think I know the 4 vallees well but I reckon I'd struggle, in those conditions, even following the pistes, if the poles weren't there ! I've had a few situations where even getting from one pole to the next isn't a gimme, as you suddenly wonder why the snow just got a lot thicker as you go off the side and/or a drift has formed on what was previously piste.
There was a calculated gamble taken on the weather and the difference in weather timing was, literally, a killer. The psychological part is really interesting.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| abc wrote: |
Neither the guide nor the French group had tried to call for help. Without them giving an approximate location, where would the rescue party go to look?
The fact they were only a short distance from the hut, we only know it afterward. The potential rescuers didn’t know that the night in question.
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No mobile signal on approach to Vignettes. You need a Satellite device like a Garmin Inreach Mini to send a distress signal with coordinates. The info could have been quickly passed to the Vignettes from where they could have easily got to them
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Poster: A snowHead
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
Neither the guide nor the French group had tried to call for help. Without them giving an approximate location, where would the rescue party go to look?
The fact they were only a short distance from the hut, we only know it afterward. The potential rescuers didn’t know that the night in question.
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No mobile signal on approach to Vignettes. You need a Satellite device like a Garmin Inreach Mini to send a distress signal with coordinates. The info could have been quickly passed to the Vignettes from where they could have easily got to them |
The guide carried a sat phone. But somehow didn’t succeed in calling out. No word on whether the phone was working or not.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Tristero wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| The storm came approx. 4 hours earlier than expected. |
Maybe I missed it - is that actually correct? |
No, it isn't. |
I'm going off what I heard (or misheard) in the video (I understand German).
Is there a report that details when the storm was due to hit and when it actually started?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Tristero wrote: |
This is when tragedy strikes. With a working GPS like the Etrex you could reach probably any hut in the alps, even in a blizzard. Except for Vignettes, if you come down from the Pigne d'Arolla. Because that would additionally require either having a track or, much better, not using the free vector OSM (the one Tommaso had), but the Swiss Topo raster map, which not only shows all the cliffs, but both routes, the one by the cairn as well as the southern bad weather route in detail. Unfortunately, this map, while now provided free of charge by the Swiss National Geographic Institute for Android/Apple download (and quite cheap back than), is around CHF250 for Garmin. It's a map quest they couldn't solve with the map they had.
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Just carried out a quick search on the route, loads of tracks/maps for this section on the internet.
https://www.outdooractive.com/de/route/skitour/walliser-alpen/haute-route-etappe-4-cab.-des-dix-cab.-des-vignettes/21731496/#dm=1
https://de.wikiloc.com/routen-skiwandern/20140327-arolla-pigne-darolla-cabane-des-vignettes-6817010
https://www.alpenvereinaktiv.com/de/tour/haute-route-etappe-4-cab.-des-dix-cab.-des-vignettes/21731496/#dm=1
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DB wrote: |
| Tristero wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| The storm came approx. 4 hours earlier than expected. |
Maybe I missed it - is that actually correct? |
No, it isn't. |
I'm going off what I heard (or misheard) in the video (I understand German).
Is there a report that details when the storm was due to hit and when it actually started? |
to quote from the video "According to forecasts the weather would remain stable until 2pm and only worse after that" and later "snowfall and gusts of winds of over 100kph but only around 2pm". The groups had hoped to make it down to the Vignettes by noon. In fact the conditions were already execrable at 10pm. They left the Dix at around 6am and arrived at the foot of the Serpentine around 9am (all three groups were more or less together, House was aware of the other groups at this point). At this point it had started to snow and the wind was getting up. Visibility in the valley was ok but not so good higher up, when they reached the top of the Serpentine shortly before 10am for House's group it was already a whiteout "the storm hit 4 hours earlier than forecast"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DB wrote: |
@davidof,
Yes a GPS is only accurate to around 10m and 10m off the side of a cliff is 10.3 m too far. As I've probably used up my chances/cat lives I find it even better to learn from other people's mistakes in the mountains. 
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It's as accurate as the receiver can make it which is typically within 1-2m for most GPS specific devices. Smartphones which have less clever antenna are about 5m max. Variables will include heavy snow, large rock faces, poor azimuth etc but its certainly quite a bit better than 10m. There used to be a 'wobble' applied to civilian use (selective availability) back in the 90s which was removed in 2000 and gave potential to 1m accuracy. I used to write the GPS sat software.....I use maps as well as GPS when i'm touring !
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Tristero wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| The storm came approx. 4 hours earlier than expected. |
Maybe I missed it - is that actually correct? |
No, it isn't. |
[Pantomime mode] Oh yes it is !!! [/Pantomime mode]
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With SA on, a geostationary receiver re-broadcasting corrections over FM radio was not uncommon and made the whole thing a bit absurd.
A $50 hack to defeat a billion dollar investment.
I built large scale GPS taxi dispatch systems just as SA was turned off. We needed to know which side of the carriageway a taxi was on. UK roads are about 3.6m wide, so in practical terms with thousands of vehicles across places like London and Singapore we were looking at more like 2m accuracy with systems a quarter of a century old. A quick google shows this which seems reasonable but non-technical. Note that smartphones are less accurate, but still not that bad.
It would be interesting to understand where 10m came from - that sort of misinformation sounds dangerous. Got a reference?
But anyway, we already know that GPS inaccuracy was not the problem, because one group successfully navigated the white out with GPS,
which also saved the two other groups from both being lost on the Serpentine. One of those groups was map/ compass based, so we know
that didn't work either (they explained why in the video). So that's GPS one, map and guides zero.
The problem wasn't GPS accuracy, it was that the guide didn't use GPS (why?) and then he didn't have a track to follow (why?).
It's not the technology, it's negligence.
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| davidof wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Tristero wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| The storm came approx. 4 hours earlier than expected. |
Maybe I missed it - is that actually correct? |
No, it isn't. |
I'm going off what I heard (or misheard) in the video (I understand German).
Is there a report that details when the storm was due to hit and when it actually started? |
to quote from the video "According to forecasts the weather would remain stable until 2pm and only worse after that" and later "snowfall and gusts of winds of over 100kph but only around 2pm". The groups had hoped to make it down to the Vignettes by noon. In fact the conditions were already execrable at 10pm. They left the Dix at around 6am and arrived at the foot of the Serpentine around 9am (all three groups were more or less together, House was aware of the other groups at this point). At this point it had started to snow and the wind was getting up. Visibility in the valley was ok but not so good higher up, when they reached the top of the Serpentine shortly before 10am for House's group it was already a whiteout "the storm hit 4 hours earlier than forecast" |
Some mitigation then although I'd like to read that forecast. A 4 hour misstep is quite critical. We all know it's not easy to forecast but a storm hitting at 10 rather than 2 is critical in this instance.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
Some mitigation then although I'd like to read that forecast. A 4 hour misstep is quite critical. We all know it's not easy to forecast but a storm hitting at 10 rather than 2 is critical in this instance. |
it is but in my experience very common in the Alps
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| phil_w wrote: |
One of those groups was map/ compass based, so we know
that didn't work either (they explained why in the video). |
without forcing me to rewatch, why?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If I recall correctly I think the map and compass guy just didn't have the courage of his convictions. He wanted to go the opposite way to the guide. And to be fair I might have done the same in the circumstances.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
| If I recall correctly I think the map and compass guy just didn't have the courage of his convictions. He wanted to go the opposite way to the guide. And to be fair I might have done the same in the circumstances. |
Yes if a guide tells you you are going the wrong way I guess most of us would believe him. Good to see that the group of 4 with the map / compass didn't do what the guide did in the end (i.e. they got out of the wind and found limited shelter) - this is most likely what saved them.
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@DB, it was interesting how much of a difference a few metres made to the wind speed the groups experienced
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You know it makes sense.
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| Tristero wrote: |
He then didn't want to band together with them which is very understandable on so many levels. Wasn't really nice though, was it?
I wonder, if he had considered talking to the guardian: "There were fourteen people with us on top of Serpentine, did they arrive or are there any no shows?" But then again the guardian might have answered: "Interesting. Why didn't you come together?" |
Everyone has an honours degree in hindsight, especially on the internet. 
House was sailing close to the wind (as were the other 2 groups) as it was more than a slim possibility that the storm would hit them sometime during the day. There was very little margin for error, whether it be with the speed of the group, the weather, navigation errors, injury, material failure etc. Having said that, for me House made many correct decisions. Scouting a route and getting an accurate GPS track is something I do often in the mountains here (Austria). Especially when I will lead a group along the same route under time constraints in the future. I'll scout-out ski touring routes in the summer. It also gives me a true indication of the likely time it will take on walking routes. (approx double my time of me doing it alone).
Why should House team up with another group? It would make it less managable (esp in poor visibility) and big groups are generally slower. Didn't two groups team up on Everest in 1996? (Hall & Fischer).
Did you think Mario would have listened to a foreign guide? (House) I doubt it, it would have likely been an argument and could have led to more people losing their life.
House's job was to get his customers to the hut in safety and he did that.
"Nice"? The general public don't realise that in the mountains there isn't the same safety net as in 'normal civilisation'. It's why people have to walk on and leave people dying at high altitudes.
It can be compared to crossing a motorway in bad weather to try and help someone out of a car wreck, you might be risking your life for someone who is already going to die.
I can see why House didn't say he was just looking after his group and trying to get to the hut as fast as possible. Even though this was the right thing to do (IMHO), admiting it could lead him open to criticism from people who have very little understanding of the situation in the mountains during bad wether/conditions.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 10-05-23 15:23; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Arno wrote: |
| @DB, it was interesting how much of a difference a few metres made to the wind speed the groups experienced |
typical on a col as the wind is channeled to the point of least resistance and accelerates at that point, it like a dam with a breach in it. You often only have to move a few meters to get out of the wind - although not so much when it is blowing at 150kph. They wanted to stay together and some people were too tired to move further given they'd been on the move for 14 hours, even to climb up a bit to the French group and get shelter. I bet if they'd arrived at the kairns/water pipe at 2pm they'd have made it to the hut.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@davidof, yes, i must have experienced this myself countless times but thankfully the consequences have never been greater than a slightly nicer or less nice place to sort out my skins or eat my lunch. The fact that it made the difference between life and death really hit me quite hard
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Arno wrote: |
| @DB, it was interesting how much of a difference a few metres made to the wind speed the groups experienced |
Amazing (and very sad to me) that other people in the group didn't realise this and do the same, I thought they were experienced not your typical punters. This is a schoolboy error that anyone who goes into the high mountains should know, and IMHO if they don't know this then they shouldn't really be there. GPS's are technical devices that can suffer problems, guides are human beings who sometimes make mistakes or get injured in accidents. If a group can't survive without the guide and GPS it can leave itself open to the elements and the mercy of the mountains. (there is no mercy)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@DB, I assumed that the vis was so bad they couldn’t really see the terrain
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Arno wrote: |
| @DB, I assumed that the vis was so bad they couldn’t really see the terrain |
You could be right, although 4 of them found a place of limited shelter. Even without being able to see very far, you can feel the wind in a whiteout and often just see a couple of metres. Mind over matter, if you know you have to get out of the wind to survive you will normally find the energy.
It's hard to do but sometimes you need to save your own rear end in the mountains. I've disconnected myself twice from mountain groups (above 3000m without a guide), literally disconnected myself from the rope and went my own way (glacier terrain). Both were potential life / death situations. The first was over 20 years ago, the second was last summer. I thought I knew enough not to go into the mountains with the wrong people but I was mistaken. 
The experience of other members in the group is also critical (not just the guide).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DB wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| @DB, I assumed that the vis was so bad they couldn’t really see the terrain |
You could be right, although 4 of them found a place of limited shelter. |
Not only the 2 French couples “found” a place with limited shelter, they improved it with a snow trench, pile their rucksack and skis to block the wind. They didn’t just lay down and give up.
Maybe they just got lucky to have found that better location. Still, they tried to improve their luck and succeeded.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| @DB, I assumed that the vis was so bad they couldn’t really see the terrain |
You could be right, although 4 of them found a place of limited shelter. |
Not only the 2 French couples “found” a place with limited shelter, they improved it with a snow trench, pile their rucksack and skis to block the wind. They didn’t just lay down and give up.
Maybe they just got lucky to have found that better location. Still, they tried to improve their luck and succeeded. |
The French couples were ski instructors from Tignes so may have had a better overall level of autonomy, fitness, training and acclimitisation.
What amazed me was that the guided group were able to keep going for so long.
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| DB wrote: |
| GPS's are technical devices that can suffer problems |
What sort of problems? In this case without GPS House and group could not have safely completed the traverse. The French guys were lost on the Serpentine because they had no GPS. The Italian guide was lost because he didn't have a GPS. I've never, ever had a GPS device fail, despite using them for decades. I've participated in multiple rescues where GPS coordinates were critical to life preservation. In UK, PhoneFind saves lives throughout the year with phone based GPS.
As a guide, you need a GPS. You also need a backup. You also need a backup with at least one other member of your party, but preferably all of them. The GPS needs to be loaded with the route, you need to have planned and loaded fall-back and "escape" routes, and everyone in the group needs to know how to use the thing. Obviously you need other stuff too. Especially with skiing the guide is most at risk as they go down first and do the ski cuts. So they need to make sure their group is robust should they "be taken out".
| davidof wrote: |
| What amazed me was that the guided group were able to keep going for so long. |
A shame of course that their energy wasn't constructively used.
I've done the traverse both ways in summer, when it's an easy snow plod, but I'm not a ski tourer. Actually riding down the face looks amazing - and it's been done. Anyway, someone here said one could not reasonably descend Serpentine in a white out, roped up, on skis. Is that correct? Can touring people here suggest where the "point of no return" on that ski traverse is, in those atrocious conditions? Having burned 6 hours wandering around the Serpentine, why not simply ski roped up back down to the Dix? Why would that be harder than continuing on? At that point they still had at least one functional GPS, and they'd established that they had no clue about navigating in a white out. Surely "going down" is easier and in this specific location safer than going up? I'm sure there were no tracks, but your GPS would have your breadcrumb trail in it, you could just retrace your steps. It's actually a built in feature on some devices.
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| Quote: |
As a guide, you need a GPS. You also need a backup. You also need a backup with at least one other member of your party, but preferably all of them. The GPS needs to be loaded with the route, you need to have planned and loaded fall-back and "escape" routes, and everyone in the group needs to know how to use the thing. Obviously you need other stuff too. Especially with skiing the guide is most at risk as they go down first and do the ski cuts. So they need to make sure their group is robust should they "be taken out".
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That sounds like good practice although I have to say that no guide I have ever climbed or skied with has done this. That said, we have never been out with a storm due in and weather conditions have generally looked settled.
My early climbing career was pre mobile phone and GPS (at least for normal people) - certainly made a difference to your sense of isolation when alone on a mountain summit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| Anyway, someone here said one could not reasonably descend Serpentine in a white out, roped up, on skis. Is that correct? |
They would have killed themselves if they'd tried. They could have downclimbed with crampons but not easy with skis on your back and it was a very big group with just one guide to control. The point of no return for them was effectively at the foot of the Serpentine at 9am. The weather was worse than when they left the hut but they still had visibility and probably hoped to be at the Vignettes by midday.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Tristero wrote: |
He then didn't want to band together with them which is very understandable on so many levels. Wasn't really nice though, was it?
I wonder, if he had considered talking to the guardian: "There were fourteen people with us on top of Serpentine, did they arrive or are there any no shows?" But then again the guardian might have answered: "Interesting. Why didn't you come together?" |
I can understand that two guides and 20 clients may have been hard to manage. I expect House was already concerned at this point and saw the best option for his team to reach the Vignettes as fast as possible but it is odd that he didn't mention this to the guardian. I would have done although with flying impossible it would probably have changed nothing. House or the other guides were hardly likely to head out on a search in the teeth of a storm. |
I agree. But I would feel awkward being in his position. Wouldn't you? In the film he looks like he does.
| phil_w wrote: |
Superguide? Well, in this I think the guy came out pretty well. I think most guides would have decided to stay home, but he did his job effectively and safely.
And then the next morning he saved the remainder of the other party. I know which guide I'd pick. |
No, he got away with it. Did he do a better job than Mario? For sure. Does that mean he did a good job? Hell, no. GPS failing, someone taking a tumble and being able to move anymore (not impossible in a blizzard), crevasse fall (same) and you got a life threatening situation right there. All the good guides stayed put or took the route over the Pas de Chèvres to Arolla or even Vignettes (faster and safe!). Better pick one of those.
| davidof wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Tristero wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| The storm came approx. 4 hours earlier than expected. |
Maybe I missed it - is that actually correct? |
No, it isn't. |
I'm going off what I heard (or misheard) in the video (I understand German).
Is there a report that details when the storm was due to hit and when it actually started? |
to quote from the video "According to forecasts the weather would remain stable until 2pm and only worse after that" and later "snowfall and gusts of winds of over 100kph but only around 2pm". The groups had hoped to make it down to the Vignettes by noon. In fact the conditions were already execrable at 10pm. They left the Dix at around 6am and arrived at the foot of the Serpentine around 9am (all three groups were more or less together, House was aware of the other groups at this point). At this point it had started to snow and the wind was getting up. Visibility in the valley was ok but not so good higher up, when they reached the top of the Serpentine shortly before 10am for House's group it was already a whiteout "the storm hit 4 hours earlier than forecast" |
Was a big debate back then. In short: Foehn storm was announced to hit by the weather apps at 1400 in Arolla. First clouds creeping up the back side of the Pigne isn't any deviation from that.
Further read: https://meteoerror.wordpress.com/2018/05/02/vom-unwetter-ueberrascht-niemals/
| DB wrote: |
| Tristero wrote: |
This is when tragedy strikes. With a working GPS like the Etrex you could reach probably any hut in the alps, even in a blizzard. Except for Vignettes, if you come down from the Pigne d'Arolla. Because that would additionally require either having a track or, much better, not using the free vector OSM (the one Tommaso had), but the Swiss Topo raster map, which not only shows all the cliffs, but both routes, the one by the cairn as well as the southern bad weather route in detail. Unfortunately, this map, while now provided free of charge by the Swiss National Geographic Institute for Android/Apple download (and quite cheap back than), is around CHF250 for Garmin. It's a map quest they couldn't solve with the map they had.
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Just carried out a quick search on the route, loads of tracks/maps for this section on the internet.
https://www.outdooractive.com/de/route/skitour/walliser-alpen/haute-route-etappe-4-cab.-des-dix-cab.-des-vignettes/21731496/#dm=1
https://de.wikiloc.com/routen-skiwandern/20140327-arolla-pigne-darolla-cabane-des-vignettes-6817010
https://www.alpenvereinaktiv.com/de/tour/haute-route-etappe-4-cab.-des-dix-cab.-des-vignettes/21731496/#dm=1 |
It's important not to confuse maps and tracks (not saying that you did). It's true that you can easily download all the tracks. Unfortunately, Tommaso didn't. Not on his Etrex. Probably because he went with a guide. It's only now that the cairn-route is embedded in the map as a path. And then there is another factor some of you might not know about: It's actually a pita to put tracks on an Etrex. Back in the day Garmin was in desparate need of features to differentiate the Etrex from the pro line GPSMap. The best they came up with was gutting the Etrex and restrict it to max 20 tracks consisting of max 500 track-points each for downloaded tracks (log-memory was much more). Which means you need to curate downloaded tracks by hand... I spent many hours...
The Swiss Topo provides all those ski routes as part of the map.
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