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Snow tyres or No Snow tyres... a salutory lesson ...

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Alastair, is it wrong that I'm sat here imagining you in your tweed, with a pipe calling people a d1ck.

This thread is certainly going well with my nachos and cheese Happy

For what it's worth i have driven in snow with and without winter tyres. Never had a problem in snow either way. One thing I will say is i tend to be less careful with winter tyres on as I feel they will save me.

Much like ski helmets? Grenade thrown, discuss Happy
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Alastair, apologies not necessary and I apologise for suggesting you were a dick.

You are quite right, understanding the gradient and how any vehicle, aerien or ground based will behave is absolutely critical.

I totally agree with your rationale regarding imcompetent drivers, however, and I think this is an important point, most holiday drivers who are technically incompetent in winter conditions are so because they experience them so infrequently.

This is of course not an excuse. Just a reality.

In which case my argument is that winter tyres help.

For the one week a year skier, driving for a 7 day holiday, from the south of England, (or Paris), it is easy to accept the argument that winter tyres are not necessary.

If you live e.g. in the north of England or Scotland, I argue that temperatures are often enough sub 7C that winter tyres are probably a good idea.

I still will look forward to an attempt on our hill in 10cms snow on summers though ...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think the problem with big 4x4s is that they are heavy and top heavy and not easy to control on slippery slopes. I've seen a lot in ditches and on roofs and generally sliding around in resort and they do not inspire confidence. I've no idea whether the drivers were competent or on snow tires or not.

Case in point was a Cayenne which lost traction and started sliding backwards eventually hitting its rear end on a wall and front on a fence on a slope I had not trouble with in a 2wd Panda on snow tires.

It is true the BWM X series tend to be driven by city dwelling hair dressers but I've also seen grizzled Savoyard peasants in ditches (although I suspect a bit too much Genepi doesn't help in the latter case).
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@PaulC1984, no tweed and I don't smoke a pipe (although I used to and threads like this might encourage me to do so again). There is a general encouragement to use snow tyres and I happen to disagree strongly. No big deal.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@under a new name, - thanks. You raise the interesting conundrum that those who most need assistance from their tyres are those who don't have significant experience of using them. A week's driving doesn't solve the problem of lack of experience/competence.

@davidof's experience with a 2WD Panda and my personal experience with (successfully) pushing a 2WD Renault (using a 2WD Renault) up the hill into Les Arcs a few years ago would suggest that we make too much of this Madeye-Smiley .
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You'll need to Register first of course.
PaulC1984 wrote:
@Alastair, is it wrong that I'm sat here imagining you in your tweed, with a pipe calling people a d1ck.


As you mentioned tweed I trust you're not getting confused between the two Alastairs! Toofy Grin ( I'm the one who wears tweeds sometimes, but no pipe. Madeye-Smiley )
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Alastair Pink, I did wonder also. At least we can agree on how to spell our names.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Alastair wrote:
@PaulC1984, no tweed and I don't smoke a pipe (although I used to and threads like this might encourage me to do so again). There is a general encouragement to use snow tyres and I happen to disagree strongly. No big deal.


This is surely a wind up!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Oh lord, @Alastair Pink, and @Alastair, I do apologise.

I did think the attitude had somewhat changed for the @Alastair Pink, I know Happy

Too much cider Happy Happy
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@PaulC1984,
Good to see you back, what do you think? is Alastair pulling our twig or is he serious?
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I've got it!!!!
@Alastair, drives a hovercraft where traction between the vehicle and road is of no importance!!!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

my apologies if you thought I was rude. It's never my intention to be so and I apologise

Well, in my book, telling someone they're talking a load of nonsense comes across as a bit rude.... wink
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
davidof wrote:
I think the problem with big 4x4s is that they are heavy and top heavy and not easy to control on slippery slopes. I've seen a lot in ditches and on roofs and generally sliding around in resort and they do not inspire confidence. I've no idea whether the drivers were competent or on snow tires or not.

Case in point was a Cayenne which lost traction and started sliding backwards eventually hitting its rear end on a wall and front on a fence on a slope I had not trouble with in a 2wd Panda on snow tires.

It is true the BWM X series tend to be driven by city dwelling hair dressers but I've also seen grizzled Savoyard peasants in ditches (although I suspect a bit too much Genepi doesn't help in the latter case).


Doesn't help in what way? It probably doesn't help in preventing you ending up in a ditch but it probably does help prevent you feeling the after effects of ending up in a ditch...... at least for a little while.
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@PaulC1984,
Quote:

I did think the attitude had somewhat changed for the @Alastair Pink, I know

You're not kidding, he is one of the most civil and gentlemanly people in the world.
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Alastair wrote:
@valais2, incidents like this are entirely due to driver incompetence. The driver of the car in this case is clearly incompetent.


Absolutely. Brakes locked...try cadence braking. It is likes ABS only better. You steer a bit, slow a bit, steer a bit, slow a bit. It's simple fisiks. Ending your journey upside down indicates that you can't really drive in anything less than perfect conditions.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Saying drivers should use more skill than relying on winter tyres is like saying Lewis Hamilton should still be able to win a GP in torrential rain whilst driving on slicks when everyone else is on rain tyres.
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Thornyhill, as I mentioned, he must have had some degree of control or the sorry episode would have ended earlier, in a hedge or a wall - the road isn't straight. (We have an especially well re-inforced garden wall for this very reason).

And while I have heard of RR computers giving up when it just all gets a bit too complicated, I can't believe the ABS wasn't working its little socks off.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yes, I would say that a very large proportion of drivers have very poor ability to avoid skidding and control/correct the skid but it's hardly something that is taught as part of a driving test. Not everyone had the opportunity as I did being brought up on a farm and started driving aged 10, we had a sheep field with tight turf that stayed firm but very slippy when wet and we would practice doing 360s and 720s and drive away, not everyone has this opportunity.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
@Alastair, @under a new name, I hope you guys have put your handbags away and kissed and made up. Earlier this morning I was reading the thread about banning trolls, and this rather unedifying exchange perhaps serves to show how even nice people's inhibitions and empathy buttons can be switched off when communicating online rather than face to face. (A pet theory of mine about how and why people are less inclined to engage in polite debate and respect other's views these days).
I know I've been somewhat direct sometimes on SH's but I do try and stick to my own rule that, if you wouldn't say it to someone's face, then don't put it online. Madeye-Smiley
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

I can't believe the ABS wasn't working its little socks off


The problem with relying on ABS, especially on ice is that it can get quite easily confused and think the car has actually stopped, so stops pulsing the brakes and just locks the wheels. If you are not aware of this it can get messy very quickly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
^ +1
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
swiftoid wrote:


Doesn't help in what way? It probably doesn't help in preventing you ending up in a ditch but it probably does help prevent you feeling the after effects of ending up in a ditch...... at least for a little while.


Happy
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Perty, I'd have said to Alastair exactly what I typed. Anyway, we have all made up sweetly.

Your pet theory is actually pretty well established by research. People do behave less well on line.

I treat this as a visit to the pub. Except I'm not so frequently found asleep in my chair if it's been a long week.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Alastair wrote:
. To keep the relevance, try Courchevel - easy to land on but extra care is sensible.


Have you landed at Courchevel?
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Alastair, My previous car was a 4wd (freelander), I have passed advanced (military/defensive , AKA Personal protection driving) courses and was assessed every year. I've also driven a Subaru rally car. So I think I'm reasonably good at driving in all sorts of conditions. Winter tyres make a difference, even in winter mode on the Landrover range.

The driver may be incompetent becaseu they didn't slow down to 5mph on every corner, get out of the car and assess the road, then get back in and proceed. However, it is acceptable for a driver to drive to an area with increasing gradient then fail to slow down to an acceptable speed because the tyres are not up to the job.

Not every driver has had skidpan training like me. Not everyone knows the 1/4 off-turn then re-engage, not every driver knows how to do the release wheel, catch, brake, turn, repeat routine when the front end goes and swaps into oversteer etc etc etc.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Its not the wrong tyres that make your car end up on its roof - it happens in the summer too.
It's bad driving that makes your car end up on its roof.
Having inappropriate tyres just means it happens sooner rather than later.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I am probably less good than average at driving , but guess what a lot of people are , approximately 50% of the population. I am pretty damn sure that as a below average driver I am considerably safer on winter tyres driving on snow and ice .
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
WindOfChange wrote:
Its not the wrong tyres that make your car end up on its roof - it happens in the summer too.
It's bad driving that makes your car end up on its roof.
Having inappropriate tyres just means it happens sooner rather than later.

It may well be bad driving but occasionally most drivers make errors whilst driving, having decent safety equipment will minimise the effect of those errors.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Alastair,

Do you honestly think that descending the hill UANN describes in a heavy car like a range rover in snow is ever acceptable on summer tyres?
4wd does nothing for you in those circumstances.
The weight does lots against you.
The wide tyres are unhelpful too.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that the lack of proper tyres wasn't a massive part of this incident?

UANN shouldn't have called you a d1ck but your posts on this thread certainly make you look like one (in the sense of having a massive superiority complex).
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I'm surprised that many countries legally require the use of winter tyres if they have now effect on how the car reacts to winter roads... snowHead
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Alastair wrote:
There is a general encouragement to use snow tyres and I happen to disagree strongly. No big deal.

This seems very odd. There is surely a mass of evidence that tells us winter tyres are preferential to summer tyres in Winter. Are you suggesting that is not the case? Or are you making another point?
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Sack the Juggler wrote:
I'm surprised that many countries legally require the use of winter tyres if they have now effect on how the car reacts to winter roads... snowHead
it's mainly because those Austrians and Germans just don't know how to drive.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Steilhang wrote:
Sack the Juggler wrote:
I'm surprised that many countries legally require the use of winter tyres if they have now effect on how the car reacts to winter roads... snowHead
it's mainly because those Austrians and Germans just don't know how to drive.
that explains why Vettel didn't win the drivers championship last year. snowHead
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Steilhang wrote:
Sack the Juggler wrote:
I'm surprised that many countries legally require the use of winter tyres if they have now effect on how the car reacts to winter roads... snowHead
it's mainly because those Austrians and Germans just don't know how to drive.

I can't comment on the Germans, but around here the standard of driving is pretty low. And I used to live in Bradford Shocked
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Layne, I'm certainly happy to agree that winter tyres will be better in winter conditions than summer tyres. However I frequently see people suggesting they're necessary in circumstances where they are not.

My reaction was OTT, and I apologise to all reading this thread for that.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
davidof wrote:
Alastair wrote:
. To keep the relevance, try Courchevel - easy to land on but extra care is sensible.


Have you landed at Courchevel?


With an instructor sitting next to me only - I don't have the rating.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Alastair wrote:
@Layne, I'm certainly happy to agree that winter tyres will be better in winter conditions than summer tyres. However I frequently see people suggesting they're necessary in circumstances where they are not.


i think people often use words like necessary with different meanings unless one is talking about legal requirements they are never really 'necessary' one can always put on snow chains or stop the journey. But for many drivers they are often highly advantageous. It would appear that is also the case for the driver of the vehicle in the original photo.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@T Bar, chains would probably not have helped - there wasn't that much snow on the road. Metal on tarmac isn't particularly grippy.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
ansta1 wrote:
Quote:

I can't believe the ABS wasn't working its little socks off


The problem with relying on ABS, especially on ice is that it can get quite easily confused and think the car has actually stopped, so stops pulsing the brakes and just locks the wheels. If you are not aware of this it can get messy very quickly.


+1 - experienced that when we had snow in Midlands before Xmas and went for a little ski in local country park. Disco with all-season tyres on, although rear 2 close to legal limit, and ABS worked then locked wheels and we slid. Fortunately I stopped breaking, steered into some fresher snow on edge and the braked again. No harm done.

Would also suspect 10m high flip unlikely - they build RR strong but that would surely lead to more distortion of cabin? But I wasn't there!
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under a new name wrote:
@T Bar, chains would probably not have helped - there wasn't that much snow on the road. Metal on tarmac isn't particularly grippy.

If there was tarmac there? I've frequently seen a thin layer of wet snow get compressed into a layer of clear ice.

I accept that the other side of the argument may, indeed be that the driver of the car is a complete and utter donkey Laughing Laughing Laughing
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