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Skin Cleats, Simplified Ski Crampons

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Has anyone over there heard of or tried these?

https://www.wildsnow.com/23060/skeats-skeat-ski-crampon-review/

Wildsnow wrote this review on them.

My friends and I have been using them in the Tetons with good results. We invented them here. Just wondering if they have been heard of, thought about or discussed in any other parts of the skiing world.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
To be honest you are probably better sending over a few samples to spyderjon to get his customers to test. Idea is like designer mcguyver.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
What is his address?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
Solution to a problem that doesn't exist?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
haha, possibly for you. But for some of us mortals, a little extra grip can be quite helpful sometimes. Let me know if you want to try some anyway.
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Funny isn't it, how suddenly there are two threads about crampons on the home page and the smell of pork products drifting on the wind.
@telemarker40, if you've got a product to flog probably best to come clean about it rather than unsubtle astroturfing.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Already said we invented them. Just want to know if any thinks the idea is worthwhile in your region. We already know they have been quite useful tools in the Tetons. Not simply "flogging" another brand for tool that already exists.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Also, just had polar explorer Ben Saunders ask us to custom make a pair of 46mm for his next mission the south pole. I believe that in many situations they provide a unique and simple solution to an irritating problem.
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I saw the skeats on Lou's site when he published the article. When comparing to a pucka crampon my initial thoughts, in no particular order:

- Delrin pins aren't going to last long at all.
- Metal version is only 12g lighter than a 100mm Dynafit crampon.
- Crampons may be bulky but everyone uses the space between them to store smaller items.
- Skeat has to be positioned just behind the toe binding to enable the spikes to be lifted out of the snow but that's ahead of the narrowest part of the ski so there's a fixing issue as the skeat will want to move back plus the height of the plastic strap connectors would block the boot from going back down flat. Plus if the skeat is positioned on the heel binding as in Lou's pic then the flat walk mode is blocked. If it's positioned behind the heel binding as per the pic on your website how is it released from the snow?
- Best grip achieved with the ski flat on the snow/ice which is a problem on a traverse whereas the inside blade of a crampon is directly under the ski edge.
- Spikes require a stepping action as opposed to a sliding one.
- How resistant is the plastic strap to the ski's edges?
- Can see the benefit for tele bindings of split boarding when pucka crampons may not be available but I can't see how they can be compared to a true crampon.

Ben's using a Rottefella BC Manual nordic binding on a touring ski for his polar trip for which there's no crampon available so yes, the Skeat could be well be useful.
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Thanks for the thoughts spyderjon.

So, the delrin skeats are for beginner or intermediate backcountry users who tend to slip even on a skin track that is not hard ice. For those users, the delrin will take a long time to wear down. And even if after several years they wear down, it is easy to replace the plate for $6. All parts are easily replaceable, even in the field.

The new 85mm that come out in December will be much lighter. Also, the skeats cleats are stainless steel and much less expensive than ski crampons. In the future, for a bit more money,I could make them with a lighter material like titanium and still be cheaper than ski crampons.

It is not just the bulk of ski crampons that make them inconvenient. Putting them on requires you to step out of your bindings and dig through your pack. Skeats skin cleats fit in your pocket, and you can set them in the snow and step on them and buckle them without ever taking your skis off, or even your pack if your skilled:) I can't yet put them on with a heavy pack on my back, but some of my younger athletes can

With my tele bindings I usually position it just in front of the heel piece and it doesn't slip. The strap is made of Biothane. And it is a bit tacky so that it helps it stick to the skin, especially when it is buckles tight. I wouldn't recommend putting then directly on the heel piece as Lou had pictures. The cleats also strap on just fine in front of the toe piece and don't slide forward because the ski gets wider as you move up along the ski. Won't slide back because of the toe piece, and sticks due to tackiness.

A slight alteration in skinning technique on steep icy terrain is required, but it is also much more efficient. Instead of doing many switch backs and traversing, you take a more direct line up the slope. Keep your tips pointed more up the fall line, move slightly laterally if necessary, instead of kicking in so many switchbacks.

When skinning on steep terrain you do not really glide much anyway. And the cleats are so easy and quick to put on and off, that you only use them in the situations where gliding is not an option. Ie. As soon as terrain flattens enough to where gliding forward is more likely than sliding backwards, you snap them off.

The bitothane strap is extremely tear resistant. I have used the same one for 60 days without any noticeable abrasion. It is a coated webbing that is made by a company in Ohio.

You are right about telemarkers and snowboarders being the first to benefit. I am a telemarker and really invented these because I couldn't find a ski crampon for my set-up. And snowboarders do love them as well.

I do think the many others will find that they like to keep the cleats in the pocket all the time...also doubles as a ski strap. Whereas they have to decide whether or not to pack ski crampons. "The most useful tools are the ones you have with you..."--Stephan Bast

Also they cost less than half what most ski crampons cost.

And I only just invented them. Think about all the innovations that have occurred with skins, or ski crampons since they first put them into production. I'm already working on a design with a cutaway fin similar to a surfboard fin to alleviate some of the concern about glide

Although as we have found through extensive field testing the sacrifice in glide in the situations where one would actually use the cleats is not significant.

Really I invented these because I needed them, not because I thought I could sell them. I own a garden center and I work all year to take winters off. Don't really need the money. But I'd like to share my tool and it has been interesting solving the puzzle of manufacturing efficiently.

And Ben said he he would use them both to ascend and maybe to descend slowly even.

Thanks so much for your thoughts...and I hope that once you get your hands on them you might come around.
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What would really score with the tech binding users is if you had a version without the plastic harness type connectors that some how slotted in to the conventional crampon groove to give all of the benefits you describe but without the issues I've mentioned.

I'm an armchair quarterback but my big market is the freeride tourers/tech bindings so I'd be pleased to put a few pairs out for evaluation over on this side of the pond. It's a very low volume niche product and you obviously want to keep the price down so there's not enough in it for a retailer but as a direct sale from your website I'm sure you'll do well - similar to the Tech Crampon 250 for tech touring boots.

I'd also recommend that you put some pics/video on your site of the Skeats in actual use as opposed to just pretty landscape shots.

There's a number of guys on this board who do a lot of touring. Two spring to mind, namely Davidof and Weathercam, both of whom are based in France and who would be ideal beta testers for you.

I've supplied/mounted a lot of B&D crampons to tele skis but as you know they only work for a few makes/models so to promote yourself to that market in the UK I'd recommend contacting John Eames at http://www.telemarkskico.com/
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I tour a lot with Weathercam here in Serre Chevalier, use ski crampons a fair bit when the snow gets hard, so can see a use for these! If you'd like to send a pair over, I (and Weathercam) would be glad to test and give a fair, unbiased review for you Very Happy
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Deleted, as question answered above if I'ld taken the time to read properly!


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Fri 29-09-17 8:23; edited 1 time in total
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Deleted, as question answered above if I'ld taken the time to read properly!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I'm just about to put a 10mm shim under the toes of my wife's Ions. The 10mm shim plus my wife's short feet creates multiple problems with conventional harscheisen, so these are definitely on my radar. Unfortunately I don't think I will be buying some as my wife's skis are 82mm wide, which I think is too narrow even for the narrowest version?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Oceanic, add a spacer to the top of the crampon to fill the gap between the crampon and the boot sole.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
spyderjon wrote:
@Oceanic, add a spacer to the top of the crampon to fill the gap between the crampon and the boot sole.


That would work (assuming that the crampon mount was attached to the ski not the toe of the shimmed binding). It doesn't solve the short feet problem though.

B&D sell a telemark crampon that would fit if I remount the binding heel piece further back (and compensate with the length adjustment of the binding).

It is all a lot of hassle though for someone who generally avoids steep icy skin tracks, which is why I think the Skeats would be a good solution if they came in a smaller size.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Oceanic wrote:
spyderjon wrote:
@Oceanic, add a spacer to the top of the crampon to fill the gap between the crampon and the boot sole.


That would work (assuming that the crampon mount was attached to the ski not the toe of the shimmed binding).......

Oceanic, the crampon can be mounted in the usual slot as it will simply pivot around the end of the shim. I've done this set-up for loads of customers.
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spyderjon wrote:

Oceanic, the crampon can be mounted in the usual slot as it will simply pivot around the end of the shim.


Oh, I see, thanks.
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@spyderjon, Thanks I think I will take some of your tips!
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@oceanic, We will have a 60mm out, but not until next winter.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@KenX, Thanks for the interest. Please send me your address and I will get a couple pairs out to you. Right now I only have the 105mm available, but I will have the 85mm available by mid December. What size are your skis underfoot?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@spyderjon, I'll send you a couple pairs for you to loan out to customers you think might benefit or be able to give feedback.
What is your address?
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@telemarker40, http://www.thepisteoffice.com/index.php/contact-us.html
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I am friends with the inventor of skeats, I am an alpine tourer who uses both dynafit and vipec tech bindings. I use skeats in the tetons and the sierra nevada.

Basically I was excited about this invention because I have a lot of problems with ski crampons:
Whenever I encounter icy terrain, I want to move through it as efficiently as possible because the more steps I take in that type of terrain, the more likely I am to screw up and start sliding. The fewest steps of course would be picking a straight line up the terrain and not making any zig-zags. It is impossible to move safely this way with ski crampons, but skeats enable you to do this.

1) because ski crampons bite into snow less when you put your risers up, the steeper the terrain gets, the worse the crampon performs. Therefore, they force me to cut several zig zags and make dangerous kick turns in icy terrain.
2) with ski crampons, the blades are all parallel to the direction of travel, they really only provide extra grip while traversing. Again, I do not want to make long traversing zig zags through icy terrain, I want to get out of it.

In early models we had some problems with slippage, but now we don't. We have modified the connection system with velcro and a camming buckle so the straps can really hug the ski tightly. I actually mount my skeats directly underfoot and I do not have a slippage problem. For me this product solved a lot of problems that ski crampons had.
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telemarker40 wrote:
@KenX, Thanks for the interest. Please send me your address and I will get a couple pairs out to you. Right now I only have the 105mm available, but I will have the 85mm available by mid December. What size are your skis underfoot?


Hi Patrick, email sent, let me know you've received it, if not I can put my address on here Very Happy
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And I'm sure they'll get some use on my teles too Very Happy
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So managed amazingly to use the Skeats today! Weathercam and I skinned up from Montgenevre (1850m) to the top of the Rocher de l'Aigle at 2595m, on the way encountering some tricky hard snow.....
There was a point where we should've had ski crampons, but we realised too late and had to tip-toe over the icy bit.
Further up the hill was a similar section so I decided to put the Skeats to the test (I had crampons but wanted to try the Skeats)
I was able to skin straight up the hard snow without having to worry about keeping the skins dead flat on the snow as usual.
On the flat leading up to the difficult section I noticed some drag from the cleats, but as soon as it was steeper this disappeared as I wasn't gliding the skis so much.
I can see on hard snow, the technique would be to do S shaped tracks up the hill without kick turns as traversing with the cleats is less easy.
The only issue will be when faced with a long icy travers where crampons would work better......
However, the plus point is they are so easy to deploy, simply lay the Skeat on the snow next to the ski, step onto it and do up the buckle, done, no need to remove the ski, so you'd be more inclined to fit/remove them as required rather than put off the faff of fitting crampons.
I found for the Kingpins I was using the best place was just in front of the toe-piece where they worked a treat.
These will definitely be clipped on my gear loop on every ski tour from now on Very Happy


Untitled by Ken Reeve, on Flickr
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@KenX, Cool. I've got a few pairs out for test with some tele guys.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thanks for the feedback @KenX. Sorry, I'm just seeing this now. Please let me know how they work for you in various situations. If you have any social media posts, I would love to share them on our Skeats Facebook or Instagram.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@telemarker40,

http://www.stylealtitude.com/ski-gear-gadget-guide-2018.html

Very Happy
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