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Is this crash my fault?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I had a crash recently and caught it on my head cam. I was fine but the other guy did some damage to his shoulder and had a pretty bloody nose :/. I felt really bad, especially because he was convinced I was in the wrong. I've never really been involved in something like this before so it threw me for a few days after.

Is this my fault? What could I have done differently?


http://youtube.com/v/ytsSiygVX9U
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
having just returned from Switzerland with broken hand bones having been part of a similar collison, I have to say NO, not your fault , it seems the other guy had plenty of time to change his path and would seem to be skiing your way , an unfortunabt accident, glad all where ok in the end.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hard to be 100% sure of the angles from that footage, but it does look like you are the uphill skier, in which case the onus is on you to avoid him. So that would be a YES I'm afraid.
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You were following a predictable line and he cut onto it. Not your fault, just an accident.
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At 0:02 the other guy comes into your field of vision, potentially looking like he might be a bit unpredictable? You should have stopped/slowed down and re-evaluated. Strictly speaking, as the uphill skier - yes your fault unfortunately.
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It would appear that the other guy was the downhill skier, you clearly looked his way, he probably didn't see or hear you past his helmet and goggles, it looks like you weren't expecting him to traverse across as far as he did and you left it too late to take evasive action.
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Maybe? If the video starts when you started skiing it looks like you may have started with him already skiing so he may not have been aware that you were skiing alongside or coming up from behind.

Starting 30 seconds earlier or later could have made it more likely either of you would have been more aware of the other and avoided the collision.

Sure lots of ways of seeing the clip just my view.
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It seems to me that the camera captures him well below you, skiing steadily across the slope into your path. If the camera saw him, you could/should also have seen him and taken avoiding action, eg by turning right and skiing parallel to him, but higher up the slope, or just by slowing right down. FIS Rule 3 - a skier coming from behind must choose his route in such a way that he does not endanger skiers ahead.

But it is possible the tape is telling a different story and that the other skier started above you and overtook you before turning right into your path. You would then not have seen him in time to take avoiding action. In that case, it would have been his fault, as he would have been the skier coming from behind and not you.
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@CallumDA, Worry less about apportioning blame and consider your decision-making; you were fortunate not to get hurt (if he was a tad faster, he'd have knocked out your knees). Perhaps, slowing a little as soon as you saw him and let him go ahead. Just IMHO.
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Hard to tell really, but you are travelling straight down and he skis across into you, that much is clear. As Hurtle says, it depends whether you were already above him in which case you should have slowed and avoided him, or if he came from behind you.
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I would also add that, from the start of your clip it looks like you were on a standing start. Did you check to see what's going on behind you before setting off? That would make you twice in the wrong, I fear.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
It looks like neither of you had any idea what was going on around you.
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Thanks all for the advice. When I started off I'm pretty sure he was behind me, but I didn't look uphill -- I usually do but maybe I didn't this time because it was very quiet so I just tried to start off in a predictable way. When I saw him (at 0:02) it felt like he was slightly in front so I assumed he must be going quickly and you can tell there's a lot of distance between us so I really didn't think I'd need to evade him -- I'm usually more than happy to slow down and wait.

I actually had lessons later that week and when we were traversing the full width of the piste my instructor said that we need to be a bit more careful of people level/slightly behind us because they won't necessarily be expecting long sharp turns. Obviously if I'd even seen one long turn prior to the collision I would've given this guy loads more space.

I guess I should have just slowed down the second I saw him.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@CallumDA, And on such a nice wide open EMPTY piste Laughing
Glad nobody got hurt though (despite his MASSIVE face-plant).
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
“Worry less about apportioning blame and consider your decision-making;”

I would agree with ALQ you are on an pretty much deserted piste, it looks like you saw the other skier, you defiantly seem to pull left into the piste and toward the other skier but most importantly for me you don’t seem to check your left field as you are doing so.
He is clearly not the most advanced of skiers, oblivious of his surroundings and taking a line like his without a cursory glance up is...well, careless.
Squirting out rules like some irate sailor finger bashing his rules of the road book doesn’t help.

It’s not skiing that hurts only hitting things
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
swiftoid wrote:
It looks like neither of you had any idea what was going on around you.


This! But since then, you've thought a lot about it, asked for advice and not made excuses. Seems that you've learnt a lesson and will be more aware, and careful, next time.

If that's true, then that's a good outcome for your future skiing. (I hope the other skier is OK, though.)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Definite yes
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Both skiers could have usefully been more aware of what was going on around them IMO.

You should definitely look back uphill before starting off. Should be as automatic as breathing. But that had no influence on this collision.

I saw nothing that suggested any reckless behaviour. To me, the downhill skier cutting diagonally across the slope was marginally the more careless of the two involved. Should have been glancing to right to assess risk.

Positives?
1. At least no serious injury.
2. Willingness to be open about mistakes, take advice and learn should help anyone improve and go far on life.
3. A few rule book waving pedants might admit that life’s not always so clear cut as they think or may like.

Now back on the slightly naughty step
@CallumDA, snowHead
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The primary cause of the collision was the other skier cutting across the piste without looking uphill.

But that does happen! So as the uphill skier, it's your responsibility to anticipate that potential and have a plan to deal with that. You did have some warnings when he appears on your helmet cam earlier. At that point, you should register that you're no long alone on that piste, and be defensive. In your place, I would keep him on my peripheral vision. At such, I would have seen him cutting across much earlier and had time for evasive action.

Keeping a mental note of how many others are around, and where they are, is helpful in reducing the potential for collisions.
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start of the video he was lower than you, so imo your job is to avoid him being the higher skier.
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Dunno. Hard to tell without a wider angle lens. I'd probably say you were both muppets. As he seemed more horizontal it seems he could have been ahead.
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If someone is stood still, it’s difficult to work out if/when they are going to set off. You briefly look his way and if he saw you do that, he would assume you had registered his presence. I think he didn’t realise you were about to set off, and therefore thought it clear to cross your path.

In this situation it’s difficult to see what else he could do. He could a) have stopped and shouted to ask if you were about to commence (which I think unreasonable as he was in motion first) b) chosen to adopt a straight down line so that worse case scenario you would be skiing parallel (which may have taken him out of his comfort zone, especially as he is traversing the piste so widely {although it could equally be that he is just taking a different route down the mountain which happens to cross your path; obviously we can’t tell that}).

This is all just my humble opinion as I’m not an experienced skier (so what I’m saying could all be rubbish), but I am a driver and I think similar rationale applies.

I think you just have to put it down to experience now, learn from it (which you clearly are doing) and don’t make the same mistake again. As others have said, like driving, observation is key and you have to make sure by looking all around that it is safe to move forward.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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Looks to me that you had clear vision of him crossing your path and took no avoiding action, so you are at fault, IMV. That said, he should have been keeping a look out.
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maggi wrote:
swiftoid wrote:
It looks like neither of you had any idea what was going on around you.


This! But since then, you've thought a lot about it, asked for advice and not made excuses. Seems that you've learnt a lesson and will be more aware, and careful, next time.

If that's true, then that's a good outcome for your future skiing. (I hope the other skier is OK, though.)


Disagree, yes the downhill skier was oblivious to what was happening behind him but the uphill skier with the camera clearly looks at him at one point.

Very much like a crash that I caused 30 years ago when the downhill skier didn't do what I expected him to do, in that case it was me that went end over end down the piste, no-one hurt but a valiable lesson.
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abc wrote:
The primary cause of the collision was the other skier cutting across the piste without looking uphill.

But that does happen! So as the uphill skier, it's your responsibility to anticipate that potential and have a plan to deal with that. You did have some warnings when he appears on your helmet cam earlier. At that point, you should register that you're no long alone on that piste, and be defensive. In your place, I would keep him on my peripheral vision. At such, I would have seen him cutting across much earlier and had time for evasive action.

Keeping a mental note of how many others are around, and where they are, is helpful in reducing the potential for collisions.


Disagree with the first sentence but the rest is spot on
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I'd say yes:
1 You had stopped in the centre of the piste
2 You set off without being aware of what was around you
3 The other skier saw nothing below him while he was skiing.
4 Sometimes there are accidents when 2 parallel skiers collide when their zigs and zags are out of sinc, but you had just set off.
Great that you are asking the question and putting up the vid. The other skier must have had blinkers on.
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Frosty the Snowman wrote:
The other skier must have had blinkers on.


They're called goggles & helmet.

The helmet that I own but don't wear now has non removable pads that cover my ears and I hated not being able to hear what was going on around me so I cut holes in the ear pads which was a big improvement.
I only wear goggles if it's too cold for sunnies, my sunnies are a top bar/frameless design that have 0% restriction of sideways peripheral vision, wearing my goggles feels like tunnel vision, they seemed to have decent peripheral vision in the shop but in use they restrict vision significantly such that skiing switch with sunnies on is ok but not with goggles.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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CallumDA wrote:
Thanks all for the advice. When I started off I'm pretty sure he was behind me, but I didn't look uphill -- I usually do but maybe I didn't this time because it was very quiet so I just tried to start off in a predictable way. When I saw him (at 0:02) it felt like he was slightly in front so I assumed he must be going quickly and you can tell there's a lot of distance between us so I really didn't think I'd need to evade him -- I'm usually more than happy to slow down and wait.

I actually had lessons later that week and when we were traversing the full width of the piste my instructor said that we need to be a bit more careful of people level/slightly behind us because they won't necessarily be expecting long sharp turns. Obviously if I'd even seen one long turn prior to the collision I would've given this guy loads more space.

I guess I should have just slowed down the second I saw him.


Well done for posting this video, I don't think I would have.

As soon as he skied past you and became the downhill skier you should have given way.

So, yes, you should have slowed down as soon as you saw him. An early turn to the left would have taken you behind him, to the right you would have been parallel: either way, no collision.
Easy with 20-20 hindsight.


It's slightly worrying that some posters don't seem to understand the rules at all.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
agw wrote:


It's slightly worrying that some posters don't seem to understand the rules at all.


++1!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Before I stop or cut across somewhere I take a quick glance uphill. But as mentioned above, as far as the other guy was concerned he was skiing down minding in own business and wham you hit him from the side/behind.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Themasterpiece wrote:
Before I stop or cut across somewhere I take a quick glance uphill. But as mentioned above, as far as the other guy was concerned he was skiing down minding in own business and wham you hit him from the side/behind.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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tangowaggon wrote:
Frosty the Snowman wrote:
The other skier must have had blinkers on.


They're called goggles & helmet.

The helmet that I own but don't wear now has non removable pads that cover my ears and I hated not being able to hear what was going on around me so I cut holes in the ear pads which was a big improvement.
I only wear goggles if it's too cold for sunnies, my sunnies are a top bar/frameless design that have 0% restriction of sideways peripheral vision, wearing my goggles feels like tunnel vision, they seemed to have decent peripheral vision in the shop but in use they restrict vision significantly such that skiing switch with sunnies on is ok but not with goggles.


I think I have good peripheral vision with my helmet and goggles. But maybe I don’t and move my head to compensate.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Beware new fangled goggles reducing peripheral vision.....

On piste I'm really cautious these days, keeping a direct line, and doing a shoulder check before changing line or moving to stop. It's all very well being in the right but not worth broken bones.
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@AndAnotherThing.., +1.. and i stick my arm out in the direction if travel if i am moving across the piste
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agw wrote:


It's slightly worrying that some posters don't seem to understand the rules at all.


There are FIS rules and they are clear, at the same time I have some sympathy for the poster as he was skiing close to the right side of the piste down the fall line and the other guy was traversing across. Personally I always check up the slope if I do that to see if someone is descending as you can quickly block someone.

http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/documentlibrary/Administrative/04/22/77/10fisrulesforconductsafetyandtheenvironment_newFISCI_Neutral.pdf
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Regardless of whether you looked uphill or not, or when you set off he was above or below you, at 3 seconds into the clip he is below you.

At that point you became "give way skier" and the onus is on you to avoid the other skier, from that point on it appears he continues in a relatively straight line toward the edge of the piste and was just setting up for the left turn to traverse back across the piste all of which is quite predictable.

It's unfortunate that you got squeezed and didn't anticipate where he was going quite as well as you might, I think the signs were there from his stance that you could have given him wider room without too much of an issue for you.

Lesson learned pick him up, apologise, buy him a beer and move on.
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Having just survived a busy week skiing on piste in France, sometimes with children, it seems clear to me that many skiers, including instructors, ignore the rules. You need to assume that everyone is ignorant and keep looking around. If traversing, look up the hill in case people like the OP are out of control.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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Sorry but this is very clearly your fault. Part of the issue here is modern carving skis, it looks to me like the other skier is locked into a carve (and not actively piloting the ski) and he comes across you much faster than you were expecting. It is your responsibility, however, to make allowance for any voluntary or involuntary movement by a skier downhill of you.

My advice is to be more aware of those around you, and especially aware that a carved turn by an intermediate skier will accelerate towards the end and also cut across the slope.
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Really nice to see someone actually questioning themselves rather than finger pointing at the time when they were wronged. Quite refreshing, so good job Callum.

Just need to be a little more observant is all, keep looking around. It is an accident and not due to massive negligence of either party, but yeah as the uphill skiier you should have kept out of his path which does look quite hard to predict so even more caution required.
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@Legend., +1
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