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Binding mount cock-up...and forward pressure

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Mini_mgrolf's new skis arrived today, Mantra Jrs, very nice Happy. But the shop (not my local) that supplied them have mounted the bindings for a bsl of 287mm, rather than the 275 I specified. They're Marker Free 7.0s, so not on a track but do have some adjustment range. With the heel piece as far forward as it goes, the boots click in nicely but forward pressure is iffy. The marker is right on the edge of the range. Market's manual states that "the groove on the lever has to be within the embossed section of the heel housing". The groove literally lines up with the edge of the embossed section (sorry, no photos, struggling with light and getting them on here, I'll add if I can).

The question is not so much whether the bindings are safe (I will get them checked by my local shop if/before they're used, whatever) but more whether it's even worth getting them checked. Is on the line, out (as in rugby) leaving a remount as the only solution, or is it worth my time getting them checked? We go on holiday on Friday and getting them checked will cost me a couple of hours of work time that I can scarcely afford so I'd rather not waste the time if I know the answer in advance. On the other hand, if it's a "might be ok" scenario I'll take them in, and deal with the resultant cost and hassle. I suspect my chances of getting a remount before Friday are slim Sad.
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Have you get a written contract with the shop?
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An order with the bsl specified, yes. But given it's one of the internet discounters, a rapid fix is unlikely, hence the need to check locally.
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mgrolf wrote:
An order with the bsl specified, yes. But given it's one of the internet discounters, a rapid fix is unlikely, hence the need to check locally.


You have 7-14 days to return without having to give an excuse at all. I also assume you paid by credit card so you can get a chargeback.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm

Because you know you will be guaranteed a refund, you simply buy another with the proper settings. Many people even buy two jackets if not sure of the size and send one back if bought online.
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I'm no expert, but I'd say you're best off not putting your cock up, down, in, or anywhere near a ski binding.
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Get them checked when you arrive at your resort? A resort shop should be able to do a very quick remount if required.
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mgrolf wrote:
An order with the bsl specified, yes. But given it's one of the internet discounters, a rapid fix is unlikely, hence the need to check locally.


Or tell them you are going to return them under the legislation I quoted above, unless they give you a big cash refund immediately to cover the cost of remounting in your local store.
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@GlasgowCyclops, return is an option but that leaves us without skis (next day delivery to Sweden doesn't really happen), and the ski is now out of stock at the retailer. I could go elsewhere, and get them delivered to France for pick up, but that's starting to get logistically complicated and risky.

@telford_mike, yes, an option - assuming the online retailer agrees to pay for the remount. It also feels a bit exposed: if I can't get them remounted overnight in resort, I'm left having to find rental skis for my daughter on the Sunday morning before ski school, on probably the busiest weekend of the year (maybe apart from new year).

The answer is probably to take the hit on my time and visit my local shop tomorrow, I guess I'm just looking for an easy way out rolling eyes
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@mgrolf, by shortening the bindings to their most forward heel position you are probably changing the way the ski will perform quite a bit , i would return them without question and get a refund especially if you are unsure of the safety performance , unless of course your childs boots are going to be replaced anytime soon Madeye-Smiley
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@Dabber, the boots will be 6 mm further forward than intended - will that make such a difference?
My daughter is growing like a proverbial weed so there is a real chance that she'll be in bigger boots next season and I think the skis should do two, so I'm reluctant to remount if it's not entirely necessary. Of course, last year's skis should have lasted two years too... Laughing
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@mgrolf, Forgot to check your location. Understand the logistics problem.
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@mgrolf,sorry thought it was 12mm , no 6mm should not make much difference and the remount would be a messy solution , so with a potential 15mm+ of adjustment they should do two years no problems , worth getting the forward pressure and release checked for sure
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Aha, a photo! Not the clearest, it's really hard to get the embossed area to show up under artificial lighting.
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You know it makes sense.
@mgrolf, two things - that looks inside the indicator area - and if it’s inside, it’s inside. When the dins are set and a boot installed, do the wings of the front binding open slightly as the boot enters the binding? If market inside indicator area - even if at an extreme end - and wings open a tiny tad, then all seems fine.

Just to note, we have one pair of skis where one notch on the rear track gives us one end of the indicator and moving one more notch puts the indicator at the other extreme end.
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@valais2, wings opening...not convincingly but I'll take another look in the morning. The photo looks better than it does in real life too.

Re one notch forward & back, my daughter's boots are the Roces adjustable ones and if I extend them to the largest size (285 mm) then I get a similar situation with the bindings - a notch change moves the indicator from the front to the back of the window.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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The more I think about it, the less I like the idea of a remount. Ideally both ends of the binding need to move by 5-6 mm which I think is too small a move for the hole spacing. Moving the heel forward 10 mm would work but then the rearwards expansion for growing feet is limited as well as the boot being off centre now.

Off to the shop this morning to get the bindings checked...fingers crossed.
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mgrolf wrote:
Ideally both ends of the binding need to move by 5-6 mm which I think is too small a move for the hole spacing.


It would be fine, a kid isn't going to rip bindings out of a ski but the question is, why should you?
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Diagram 6.5-4 on p. 72 of the below deals with the setting of forward pressure on the M7 free. Looks like you are pretty marginal on the indicator. I am not sure the shop is going to be able to tell you more than that.

http://www.markercertification.com/downloads/1617_Marker_Tec_Manual.pdf

It sounds like sending the skis back is not an option. I would therefore remove the bindings and send them back - with as shitty a letter as you feel appropriate. I would source a pair of marker squire demos and get your local shop to mount them. That way you can get them on the line and will have an adjustable solution as your kid ages.
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One other thing, which online discounter was it? Mildly curious.
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@mgrolf, I’d take some photos in the shop with the ski-tech showing the problem and then send them to the seller. They should be involved in sorting out a remedy.
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gorilla wrote:
I would source a pair of marker squire demos and get your local shop to mount them. That way you can get them on the line and will have an adjustable solution as your kid ages.


Interesting idea, thanks - not one I'd considered. Is there a junior boot compatible version of the squire, and does it use the same mounting pattern as the Free 7 (checking the manual via my phone at work isn't very easy so if someone knows, that'd be helpful).

The skis came from Sport Conrad. I spoke to them this morning and they offered to pay for the remount if needed. So whilst they've made a mistake, they're not being totally unreasonable in finding a solution.

The "right" answer of course is to send them back and get a refund but given the practicalities and only having a couple of days before we go away I'm looking at pragmatic fixes.
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Quote:

Is there a junior boot compatible version of the squire


My bad - hadn't considered the junior boot issue. I'll get back in my box. Should still be a demo binding option that would work.
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I tried to reply, looks like it got lost in the post...

Could you install quiver killers in the current holes and move the heel 10mm forward (and recharge the mounting to the seller)?
That should only moves the boot centre 5mm in front of the line, so not huge.
Then you have the inserts to move the heel back to centred for the next pair of boots when Jr goes up a shell size.
A possible solution that builds in some flexibility and future proofing?
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A 275mm boot 23- 23.5 mondo will likely have adult toe lugs 19 +- 1 mm and heel lugs 30 +- 1mm so most bindings with a max DIN of 7 upwards will work with them
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I would be returning the skis out of principle... that's poor service. Both because it just is, but also because if that's how much effort they've put into mounting the bindings... do you really want to be clipping into them at all? Bindings are safety equipment to stop you from breaking your legs, if it appears that they've been installed by some hap-dash can't-be-arsed oaf then you might want to think twice about using them.

I have rail bindings on my skis which are similar to demo bindings and you can change BSL as often as you like. If you can find some rails, then you'd be able to install junior bindings on them and move them as your lad's feet grow.
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gsb wrote:
A 275mm boot 23- 23.5 mondo will likely have adult toe lugs 19 +- 1 mm and heel lugs 30 +- 1mm so most bindings with a max DIN of 7 upwards will work with them


Interesting thought...I'd assumed that they were junior boots but you're right, the toe and heel lugs match my adult ones. @gorilla, your squire demo idea could be back on...except that my local tech checked and says they're ok, and in his opinion (which helpfully matches mine, so easy to agree with Laughing) the 6mm forward shift won't make a big difference. Much fuss about nothing in the end, other than the original mistake.

@dp i sort of agree, but if I send them back my daughter won't be happy. Aside from being set at the wrong bsl, the mounting is fine - central, the right place vs the mount line, equal on both skis and flush to the top sheets - so I don't think there's a problem there. In principle I'd send them back. In reality, the hassle is bigger than any gain for me, so I'm keeping the skis.
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@mgrolf, well it should be in the right place. The fact is you need them re mounted. So I think if you’re absolutely resolved on keeping them you ought to at least approach the seller for a partial refund on account of your additional costs in having new bindings put on - and the fact that a set of holes in the ski which you can’t use has devalued the skis and reduced the number of times you’ll be able to re-mount them in the future before they’ve too many holes in.
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Can’t believe 6mm is going to make much difference. I wouldn’t sweat it. People regularly mount freeride skis +2 to -2cm depending on preference so 0.6 is nothing. And they’ll fit perfectly on next boot size up. Fab skis by the way - my boy loves them
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You know it makes sense.
@BobinCH, to my estimate, 275mm and 287mm are 12mm apart, not 6.
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@dp, well... the toe would be mounted half the difference forward and the heel half the difference back. So the heel has been adjusted 12mm forwards but the front of the boot is 6mm forwards of where it should be.
If my brain is processing correctly the mid point should be 9mm forward.
EDIT: As pointed out below my brain wasn't processing correctly. Duh, going for a lie down now! 6mm it is (but not 12 @dp)


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 15-02-18 22:03; edited 1 time in total
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@BobinCH, agreed. I skied a pair for years with one ski mounted 6mm in front of the other and could not really tell the difference.

I was, however, really Be Nice please! off with the shop that did that to my skis. I want them to be perfect. Until I ski across a car park, over rocks, the side of a dam or something like that.
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@Tubaski, the toe is mounted 287/2 in front of the mount line, ie -143.5. Then my daughter's boot is 275 mm long, so the midpoint of that is at 137.5mm. Mid point of boot is thus 6 mm in front of the mount line. I think Puzzled

Whatever, we'll see on Saturday how they ski Happy
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@mgrolf, yeah of course. Definately 6 Embarassed
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@Tubaski, sorry I missed the 6mm adjustment in the heel. My bad
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It looks to me, although starting with a mistake, that you'll not really be disadvantaged as they need to move ultimately toward what you've ended up with as you step up in boot size.

We've done almost exactly the same (intentionally) with my son's skis. Bought flat last year, delayed mounting until new boot size last week. Ideally don't want to remount too soon so looked at what size and range of bindings we could get best compromise as his feet you can almost see growing.

His boots 316mm bsl, we've mounted at 325mm bsl (my boots) and got enough movement on rear binding to cover with forward pressure indicator confirming.

Skis and bindings from Bartlett ski where we talked through the options, very good service from graham, the tech there.

We should be able to cover reasonably a few iterations of his boots increasing.
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@ski3, yes, it'll work out in the end. Assuming my daughter's feet get big enough to need larger boots and she stays small enough to use the skis. I will see what Sport Conrad say; right now I'm looking forward to snow rather than worrying about a refund.
@dp, I'm not giving up without some kind of fight cos I agree with you in principle. It'll just have to wait till I've been skiing Toofy Grin
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@mgrolf, good to hear - my reservation is mainly that if the bindings have been installed at the wrong spacing entirely, it suggests to me the tech fitting them was just feeling in a bit of a CBA mood (or was just incompetent)... either way, neither is what you want when it comes to bindings.

By the same principle, when I am inspecting lifting equipment work I will flag up stuff which does pass the examination criteria, but shows signs of poor workmanship / poor user practices / etc; on the basis that such things might flag up a potential risk. So we might carry out a more thorough examination, or reduce the inspection interval to a 6-month / 3-month basis etc etc. Sometimes a job done badly in one area of a task can be a red flag that other areas - not immediately obvious - have been fluffed up too.
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@mgrolf, be interested to hear what SR day. Sounds like manual error. My experiences with them have all been good and hope they do something to compensate you. Suspect your daughter will love the skis - perfect conditions for them!
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GlasgowCyclops wrote:
mgrolf wrote:
An order with the bsl specified, yes. But given it's one of the internet discounters, a rapid fix is unlikely, hence the need to check locally.


Or tell them you are going to return them under the legislation I quoted above, unless they give you a big cash refund immediately to cover the cost of remounting in your local store.


Shops often have an exclusion that once bindings are fitted, skis aren't returnable.

That they have fitted the bindings incorrectly makes this a different matter, but you would need to be 100% sure they didn't fit your daughter's boots. I would imagine they were checked with a boot of the same last size, before being dispatched.
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@bar shaker, given that their dispatch note states that the bindings are mounted at 287 mm and my order states 275, I think I've got a pretty good case. Doesn't really matter whether the boots fit or not, goods are not as ordered. I imagine the shop will disagree though.
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