 Poster: A snowHead
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I was given a pair of well-used and well bashed-around Elan Insomnias ( amphibio shape, fusion bindings) by a well-meaning, "you like skis" person. I've skied the slx slalom version ( but not the fusion bindings) and these skis generally have good reviews. So, not to look yet more rock-hopping gift horses in mouths... I was expecting fun things.
However, I gave them a quick trial run whilst in Scotland recently and it was as if I couldn't ski at all. Seriously dangerous: couldn't control them, couldn't keep them parallel, spitting out on anything soft or hard underfoot, couldn't even get them to hockey/skid stop or snowplough. The left ski in particular seemed problematic. Took them off and walked the last bit  Mr G was following me and said even he as a snowboarder could see that I was trying to get them on edge but simply couldn't ( he obviously knows my normal skiing style) - and I also felt that I couldn't tip them over onto their edges at all once moving. Felt fine on the carpet at home... Didn't matter how or where I pressured them, they just weren't listening to what I wanted. I had been skiing my Scotts all day with no bother, so it can't just be me (I hope).
The bases look OK, obviously have been waxed at some point, but I don't know anything about edges and angles (they're not rusty, that's all I can say) or these bindings, which are some sort of single-point mounting, though BSL, DIN and FP seem OK.
Any ideas what's wrong, if they can be made useable for not much cost, if the bindings can be replaced? Don't knowingly have anyone round here who's a ski technician. Or do I just bin them ( anyone have any use for knackered skis?).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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you can always screw them to the wall for the authentic unoriginal french mountain restaurant look.
charge Mr G 10 euros for a bowl of watery soup and you're ready to open
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@dp, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Grizzler, sounds more like an edge or base problem. Unlikely to be the bindings can’t imagine how they’d screw anything up.
Is the base flat?
Any hanging burr (metal) on the edges?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sounds like alignment to me. Have the bindings been shimmed in any way? Or do they have an extreme ramp?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hello convex base. Take a straight edge, or failing that a file guide and hold it horizontally across the base. Shine a torch through from one side. If there is light coming through the edges then they need a base grind to be made flat. If there is more convexity than base thickness then you are sol.
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Did you have them on the right way around? I hadn't realised anyone made dedicated Left / Right skis
| Quote: |
| The Amphibio profile is a revolutionary ski design that integrates both rocker and camber profiles into dedicated left and right skis. Amphibio skis feature a cambered inside edge assuring precision, edge grip, and stability while a rockered outside edge provides forgiveness, turning ease and smooth transitions. |
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@olderscot, er, yeah. Though I did wonder that myself  They helpfull have "Right" and "Left" written on them. Definitely not assuring precision, grip, stability, turning ease or anything else though.
I'll go and check later on re the bases. Only reason I thought bindings was that although they feel solid enough when the boot is locked in, when 'in hand' the bindings don't half wobble and rock around and I understand that the Fusion is a single-point central mount, so I just wondered. Worn, maybe? Don't know if the mounting plate is such that another set could be put on, being this strange (to me) type.
@Dave of the Marmottes, Not sure how they should be aligned to be honest - but I'll put me boots on later and have a think about it. Don't think they've been shimmed or ramped as they're OEM for the skis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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OK - just got out the offending skis, my Scott Reverses (couple of years old & had a fair bit of UK skiing this year) and my old Elan carvers (many services, UK use also).
1: Give or take, all edges on all 3 are sharp enough and nothing stands out as burred or blunt. The Reverses are probably more sharp, but more in need of a tune up than the other 2 pairs.
2: As far as the non-expert eye can see all base and edge angles look the same, nothing looks funny to me, all have the same amount of metal thickness showing and all base edges are smooth to the base - with a query on maybe a slight base edge angle on the Scotts and old Elans.
3: Ran a thick vernier edge down both bases of the questionable skis. Cannot say that they are not flat: scraped off a bit of wax too.
4: Bindings on Scotts and old Elans are firm if you try and move them side to side by hand; those on the questionable ones definitely (independently, toe and heel) rock side to side as if they're very worn, approx 3-5mm play says Mr G.
5: Placed boot in each binding. Again, on Scotts and old Elans, any movement on the boot transmits directly to the ski. On the 'knackered' ones there's play.
6: With boot in binding ( but on a carpet) there's very little to no visible camber 'bounce' on the questionable ones; a tad more, but not much, on the Scotts, lots more on the old, softer carvers.
My ill-educated opinion is therefore that there's a binding issue, perhaps also a loss of camber/response(?). Maybe they need an edge retune, and I'd certainly want that checked, but the binding play does not inspire me
Does anyone know if these particular skis can take a replacement binding, and is it worth it? ( Could do with a reasonably stiff ski to wreck on UK stuff and dry slopes at the least). If so, who could replace them, and with what? I could get to Anything Technical, maybe; else it'd be a costly courier.
Or just hang 'em on that restaurant wall...
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@Grizzler, I think the politer expression is, "You can't make a silk purse from a Sow's ear"....rather than trying to Polish a ....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If the bindings are loose with the boots in place... that’s an issue.
Rental bindings are sometimes loose with no boots, IME, but not once the boots are locked in.
Recycle them responsibly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have a weird one with my old SL skis.... the camber is such that you can almost get 2 fingers between them when back to back. Not causing too much of a problem though.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Recycle them responsibly. |
I've inherited a load of clematis plants with my new house. They need a support to climb up 
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You know it makes sense.
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Very unlikely that camber/lack of camber is causing the problem. My money would have been on convex base (really can make them unskiable).
It sounds like you've definitely got binding problems, but IME that shouldn't really make them so unskiable, at least unless it's much more dramatic than you describe above. For example I used a pair of Marker Barons well beyond their use-by date with a good 5mm of lateral play, and while it was noticeable, I could still ski just fine (and that was on 135mm skis which should be even harder to get on edge).
I've no idea what a "thick vernier edge" is... But I'd double check that the bases really are flat.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@clarky999, A vernier is a precision engineering measuring instrument, therefore has to be very solid and utterly flat - usually used for the gauge or callipers but the main body/arm is high quality steel and the best guaranteed flat thing which I could find. I ran that all the way down both bases and I couldn't within the judgment of an eye tell that they were either concave or convex. The base edges also looked flat to the bases. Don't know how I check more than that.
Unfortunately, unless I can find somewhere to take them to to get checked over (and there's not many of them in the UK and none immediately where I live) it's just not possible to tell more, is it?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Grizzler, you could try Glide and Slide in Leeds if you’re ever down that far?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In the quiet dawn of a Sunday, I’m not sure where that binding play comes from. That’s worth a 2nd look before repurposing as a pergola.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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i had a pair of Volkl's which developed lateral play in the rail mounted bindings. I used them when skiing in the dome, made life a bit more interesting especially when it got beyond about 5 degrees each way. I was a bit miffed when they were stolen. It was then my ferverant hope that the new owners first run on them would be down a tricky black.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Grizzler, Do you have a base edge guide? run it down the base edge to check.
If base edges are actually flat to the base all acrss the edge, then they may have no base edge angle as all, so its zero degrees, that would make them very interesting to ski, they would react to any snow lumps and bumps and as soon as you tipped them at all the edge would engage, as you have experienced,
or it may be that its fine on the main body of the ski, but when it gets near the shovel or tails the machine didn't put a base edge angle on them, I have had that this year with a new pair of elans, the tune from the factory was dire, the base edge near the tips and tails was at zero degrees, the centre was at 1 degree, they were really weird to ski until I sorted it, just tracking anywhere.
I have a pair of old fischer rock hoppers with an old railflex binding and they have quite a bit of slop in them on the rails with the boot in.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks all.
@Zorrac, No, I don't have any technical ski tools. Can only judge it by eye on these and my other skis (and by companisons between them). I'm not sure if the edges were engaging or not as once moving (though OK when standing still) I don't feel that I could get them tipped over and Mr G said that he could see me trying and strugging to do so. But they weren't exactly wanting to run in anywhere near a straight line either (never mind parallel) - which, if I understand you, does sound rather like "tracking anywhere".
Just for interest, with a quick Google for images, they're like this (if the links work):
http://www.ekosport.co.uk/elan-amphibio-insomnia-fusion-w-elw-11.0-14-p-1-21148.html
https://www.snowinn.com/sklep-narciarski/elan-amphibio-insomnia-fusion---elw-11.0-fusion-13-14/117610/p
It's just so weird that I can to some degree jump on any skis, soft, stiff, rental or whatever, and at least get them to hockey/skid stop, snowplough and tip over onto edges when moving, and feel in control, if not exactly skiing at my best - but these were just randomly uncontrollable, but wouldn't even let me skid, hockey stop or snowplough to a stop when they were already feeling out of control. The first time ever that I've wimped out and refused to finish a run.
Anyhows, I think that I'm pretty stuck either either ditching them or taking them to a technician (if I can find one, either up north or maybe in Scotland if one's around or in passing next time I'm up) for an opinion in person.
Unless anyone wants to meet me at Yad Moss and try 'em out...???  THey do have easily-adjustable BSLs on the bindings.
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