 Poster: A snowHead
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Just diverting over from the thread about the fatalities in Cham.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@valais2, just back on your Saas-Fee question, would they open the pistes if there was any reasonable doubt about on piste safety?
latest report Mon 29 Jan, 18
14:59 Reply with quote Edit-post
valais2
hors Piste
Posts: 1927
Location: flatlands
@snowdave, ...I wouldn't let them out and about by themselves at all in these conditions. They are allowed (12 and 14) to be on piste together or with (some carefully nominated) friends, and never allowed off piste without adult or guide. They have been trained to understand that even in sun you could be 1m off the piste, down a bank in deep snow, and never found if you have hurtled off without being seen. Alarmist? No...realistic. Remember tree wells. And two years' ago a six-year old died at Saas Fee and an instructor was engulfed but survived ON PISTE when an avalanche was triggered way above them and ran on air to the piste. It was very upsetting for the village. This week an avalanche - powder cloud and seems well dispersed, but still a scary reminder - reached the town itself. Where we are, we ski resorts where things which happen high can come down onto the piste (Col Du Pochet a notable example). Both kids have spent time in avalanche training. I am considering, but only considering, transceivers and a shovel at all times. I am trying not to be over dramatic, but I have seen quite a few incidents in the high hills which give pause for thought....
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is it snowing yet?
New post Mon 29 Jan, 18
15:00 Reply with quote
valais2
hors Piste
Posts: 1927
Location: flatlands
@under a new name, ...in the last few years I have a number of avalanches which have run onto pistes...goodness knows if anyone knows the risk zones this year. The folk lore and knowledge which builds up is vital and the last time anyone remembers a year like this was 1999. None of the current avi control people I know were working then....Flavian would know, he's just retired at nearly 80. But he's not running the avi control....
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is it snowing yet?
New post Mon 29 Jan, 18
15:02 Reply with quote
Bennisboy
user
Posts: 79
@valais2, It's like the old saying "It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"
There's no negative to your kids being trained in avalanche safety and having the equipment to survive should something freak happen on piste, and hopefully they never have to use it!
New post Mon 29 Jan, 18
15:05 Reply with quote
chocksaway
FreeRider
Posts: 4521
@jedster, Same in Tignes and Val D'Isere but the top lifts are not open because they were buried in snow (Cugnai opened yesterday), they were broken in the storms (Grande Motte CC still closed, 'Up and Over' opened yesterday or are still buried - 2 or 3 pomas in the area.
Col des Ves opened at lunchtime today (and associated off pite routes) for the 1st time this season and was fabulous.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Picking back up, @valais2, 1999 was only 19 years ago, amazed the collective memory so poor! Problem of course being that the exact situation probably hasn't been replicated, e.g. winds, etc.
Can't recall when I last saw a slide onto the piste in Chamonix, but I probably would have ignored it.
Re kids and beeps: as long as it's continually reinforced that the beep doesn't add safety as such (etc.), I think the earlier the better. Wouldn't be counting on them to be that good with the spade either.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I put my transceiver on every day, and turn it on in the apt before I leave. I do that even if I intend to spend the day on piste with my wife and daughter, as who know's who I'll see, and what they'll suggest we do whilst the girls are having a hot choc break.
Once my wife started to regularly venture to off piste (even side of) I badgered her to do the same.
Now my 11 year old will happily ski off piste, and if there's a bit of fresh prefers it to a skied out red or black, then she has her own transceiver and isn't allowed out without it.
I mean why wouldn't you?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Last week my wife was skiing Balme, the day they opened the road back up after the last (wet) dump.
She was with a friend who is strictly a piste skier, but mindful of '99 and the fact the road up and whole area had been shut the day before she suggested they both wore transceivers.
Lunchtime comes and her friend is eating and faffing with the transceiver. She basically says 'it's a waste of time wearing these', so my wife accepts it back off her and drops it into her pack. Her friend then asks 'but aren't you taking yours off'?
Answer: NO!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@midgetbiker, ...I think that's exactly right....
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| Quote: |
I put my transceiver on every day, and turn it on in the apt before I leave. I do that even if I intend to spend the day on piste with my wife and daughter, as who know's who I'll see, and what they'll suggest we do whilst the girls are having a hot choc break.
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We usually (!) do the same. If nothing else, it reduces the likelihood of forgetting it.
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My 11 year old is increasingly going off-piste in lessons, it sounds like a transceiver may not be a bad idea. Are there any recommendations? They seem to be a lot more expensive than I was expecting (we're pretty much on-piste skiers so never looked before!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@sparklies, I am not super current on what's hot but keeping it simple e.g. BCA tracker is a good idea, easiest to use is best. Although at 11 they aren't going to be searching.
TBH, unless the school has specifically suggested it, it's probably unnecessary. They're (or they shouldn't!) unlikely to be anywhere steep enough to slide nor with any risks above.
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| sparklies wrote: |
| My 11 year old is increasingly going off-piste in lessons, it sounds like a transceiver may not be a bad idea. Are there any recommendations? They seem to be a lot more expensive than I was expecting (we're pretty much on-piste skiers so never looked before!) |
Pieps freeride is the cheapest beacon if you can find one.
But, I would not be happy for anyone under 18 to be going into anywhere where there is a risk of avalanche (and I accept that there are the occasional deaths on piste).
For info here is a recent on piste incident involving an instructor led group: http://pistehors.com/series-of-avalanches-across-alps-and-pyrenees-25259568.htm (last but one paragraph)
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 29-01-18 16:49; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@sparklies, buy second hand if you want to keep the cost down. Don't get too bogged down on features if your giving them to an 11year old who won't be carrying a probe or shovel.
I bought the Pieps Freeride (2 of them off a sH on here) for my 11yr old and her friend, as they are cheap, light & simple. Plus a number of her friends have used them for a few years.
** the above advice is contentious as it implies the beacon will be used only to be found, not help find & because someone will be along to slag the Freeride in a minute.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| I put my transceiver on every day, and turn it on in the apt before I leave. ... I mean why wouldn't you? |
Well "in bounds" in North America it's not going to significantly affect your risk.
Some people probably carry an umbrella every day, just in case it's going to rain...
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| Quote: |
and I accept that there are the occasional deaths on piste
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and a few more (still rare, but more common than on piste) deaths every year of people just 'a bit' off piste in an area they considered safe from avi.
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You know it makes sense.
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| philwig wrote: |
| midgetbiker wrote: |
| I put my transceiver on every day, and turn it on in the apt before I leave. ... I mean why wouldn't you? |
Well "in bounds" in North America it's not going to significantly affect your risk.
Some people probably carry an umbrella every day, just in case it's going to rain... |
I haven't skied in North America for a decade*, and carrying a brolly is more hassle than wearing a transceiver.
*would like to visit the Tetons at some point though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I accept my concerns may be misplaced, and they may not be downsides, but:
1) Risk homeostasis. It's very hard to know if the transceiver affects your judgement of what to do with your kids...
2) ... if it's hard for me to work out as an adult, then no matter how often I tell them (everyone with kids will be familiar with them ignoring repeated instructions!), I can't tell if they are assuming that the transceiver provides protection.
3) It provides a potential substitute for judgement. With my son in particular (since he's older) I want him to stop, assess, think and evaluate. Not just ski over a lip.
4) They are not physically able to dig much (then again, it amazes me how people at the ARVA park practice the easy part of finding a signal but don't practice digging). It's a skill to dig well. I buried a rucsac 1m under the snow, and then asked my kids to dig it out. You'd be a cold corpse by the time they reached you.
I deliberately focus on getting my son to stop and evaluate, making him walk out when we couldn't safely assess a convex slope last year (said slope I know to be safe, but the point was we weren't in a position _a priori_ to know this from the top).
We do practice with the kit (they love transceiver hide and seek), and I think both kids understand that when I think they have a level of judgement and competence at evaluating the risk and using the gear, they will get their own. That level of competence won't come from me, they will have to do an avalanche course first.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@davidof, I wouldn't be happy about them going off-piste with a risk of avalanche either, and I'd assume the instructors wouldn't.. but even in good conditions I'm going to assume the risk is still higher than being on piste. And they do a lot of side-of-piste stuff no matter what the conditions by the sounds of it!
It's one of those things I'm quite sure we'll never use for its intended purpose, but I don't particularly want to ever be in a position where I regret not getting one if it could have increased the odds.
Thanks for the recommendation - as you say, she's not going to be doing any shovelling or probing at her age, so for a child it sounds fine.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@snowdave
I hear all your concerns
At the moment my daughter is only 11, she doesn't make judgements for herself as to where she could/should ski off piste. I give her a transceiver in case I (or the other adult leading her) get our judgements wrong.
As regards 1), all I can do is try to make the right decisions and consciously compensate for the potential for skewed risk assessing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@midgetbiker,
Yes, I wanted to provide some balance to the automatic assumption that there are no downsides, as I believe that the amount of research on risk homeostasis suggests very much the contrary.
The key questions (which i wrestle with myself, I don't claim to have the right answer!) are
1) whether your child wearing a beacon makes you more likely to get your own judgements wrong (i.e. how much do I trust myself, faced with a beautiful powder slope below a convex rollover?)
2) whether your child wearing a beacon makes them get their own judgements wrong? I generally send my son in front to make it easier to get to him in the event of a wipeout (increasingly pointlessly; it tends to be me wiping out now!) but that does mean that I need him to learn where to stop.
3) In the end, if we do think there's a risk, why a beacon vs an airbag...
This is more psychology than gear... Hopefully none of us will ever be proven right or wrong when it comes to kids and avalanches.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Here was my developing situation:
I always wear a (turned on) transceiver, following the reasoning I give above.
As my daughter gets better at skiing it becomes clear she hates ice (doesn't everyone but a racer) and after she's taken off piste in more than one of her group lessons she starts asking me to lead her off piste in preference to say Chamois black next to the Lavancher in Chx if the piste is hard once we are on it.
So now I'm off piste, with my 11yr old (in an area and at a time that I admittedly regard as avi safe), I'm transceiver'd up and carrying avi kit in a pack, but she has nothing. I'm uncomfortable with that.
Another time in similar circumstance I take my trans' off and make her wear it. Now she's trans'd up, I've got shovel and probe, but no way to detect her if tshtf. We're still in a place/time I consider safe from avi, but I am still not comfortable.
So I get her a trans' Now we are both trans'd up, and I have a shovel & probe, we still only go where i feel is avi safe, but now I'm much more comfortable.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 29-01-18 18:09; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In our case, given we're never going to venture off-piste with her (at most, side of piste with us without transceivers) the risk homoeostasis seems less of an issue. The only one making decisions about off-piste will be her instructor, who has the rest of the class to consider and won't even know about the transceiver!
Both our older two have phones on them at all times anyway and that probably influences us all unconsciously a lot more than a transceiver would "If I zoom on ahead and guess the wrong turning, I can always call mum.."
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@snowdave, I guess you'ld argue I should never get 'comfortable' and you're right.
But what are we going to do, stay home on the sofa?
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@midgetbiker, Yup, we should never get comfortable, because that might mean complacency. However, the sofa (possibly combined with the TV) is probably the biggest killer in the developed world, you definitely want to avoid that 
If you & your 11 yr old like the off piste then give me a shout next time you're in Cham. My 10 yr old & 7 yr old love it.
@sparklies, https://backcountryaccess.com/electronic-noise-and-what-it-means-for-your-beacon-2/
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| @sparklies, buy second hand if you want to keep the cost down. |
Just to add to be aware of some very old transceivers for sale out there. Make sure you get a 3 antenna model.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Themasterpiece, if its only for transmitting does it matter? (Serious question)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowdave wrote: |
| @Themasterpiece, if its only for transmitting does it matter? (Serious question) |
I guess not but i don’t see the sense in carrying out of date technology, in case you are buried or need to help with a search
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I’m just back from a week in Val d’Isere and for the first time I put a transceiver on my 10 year old son.
He has no idea what it’s for beyond a vague “will help us find each other if we get lost”.
We got a fright at new year when we ended up unexpectedly off piste in a white out, then there were several 5/5 days in VDI along with warnings about walking beneath overhanging roofs. And our apartment was up a lane way so narrow the opposite roofs were almost touching there was so much snow!
Yeah, it seemed a bit over the top at times, especially cruising around the pistes, but he was chuffed when we went off piste with Steve Angus and he already had his own transceiver on.
A bit of drama late on Friday afternoon when he left it in the loo up the top of Solaise though! Luckily we were able to go up Saturday to retrieve it! (Note to self - check transceiver back on child after loo break!!)
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@sparklies, I got mini_mg a transceiver (ortovox zoom - very simple and easy to use) at the same time as mine. Partly for her safety as we start to think about off piste, but mainly so we could both practice. Having just one transceiver makes regular practice difficult!
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You know it makes sense.
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Different perspective from over here.
Prefer my (9 year old) son to be skiing (in-bounds) off-piste and learning about the associated dangers which are plentiful here, rather than being oblivious - 7ft of snow in a week (not unusual) means there are a whole lot of immersion hazards to learn about.
He doesn't ski out of bounds, but he does learn about avalanches and terrain choices such that when he does, again wont blunder in completely obliviously. I'd have a beacon and abs pack on him (and make sure he can use them) when he does but doubt he is strong enough to use a shovel to dig concrete avalanche debris.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mgrolf wrote: |
| @sparklies, I got mini_mg a transceiver (ortovox zoom - very simple and easy to use) at the same time as mine. Partly for her safety as we start to think about off piste, but mainly so we could both practice. Having just one transceiver makes regular practice difficult! |
That's not a bad price! Tempted to get one for me, if nothing else so we can practice, but it won't be long before @AlwayzPink as well as @AlwayzBlue is off-piste in her lessons!
@SnowDave - thanks for the link, some great advice. Will ensure it's kept well away from her phone!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Am having a dilemma with my kids, both great skiers, both happy on moderate off piste and in trees. 10 and 13.
Have been thinking about avi transceivers for them with shovels and probes but I do wonder whether the 10 year old would cope probing and digging out.
Some say no shovel, but if it was me and them and I was buried their trauma would be huge.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ChrisKernow wrote: |
Have been thinking about avi transceivers for them with shovels and probes but I do wonder whether the 10 year old would cope probing and digging out.
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Erm, No.
Hopefully that will help you make up your mind.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@ChrisKernow, try it. Dig a hole at least 1m deep (that means, standing in it, it's over your waist). Put a backpack in it, and cover it up, stamping on the snow as you do so to simulate consolidation.
Hand shovel to kids, start stopwatch. Go and have dinner and a few beers. Wait a while longer, and eventually realise that you never liked that backpack anyway and give up.
PS like many adults, they can get good at searching and probing - mine are only a bit slower than me. However, they are even more rubbish at digging than adults, and most adults (I include myself in this) aren't very good either...
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