 Poster: A snowHead
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The number of people who can't figure out that there's a time and a place for "everything". It's all well and good straight-lining, but you do it when conditions allow, not when the slopes are packed with people, especially when those people are still at the stage where they are making erratic turns across the piste
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Bennisboy, ...precisely. This has always been an issue, but affecting a relatively small number of people. The hill on 19-22 jan in the Big Dump just had the Yoof Plank Riders all over the hill. We saw maybe 15-20 of them over a one hour period. I wouldn't call them 'Park Rats' as described above, since I don't think they had the skills consistent with the half-pipe, table-tops or rails, they were more like 'aspirant Park Rats'....all the gear and no idea....
...now...what to do...?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@jedster, ...yes, just this....exactly what we saw. And yes, you are right to use the term 'scary'. There's a pinch-point going down from Cry-D'Er where we are, a steep section just before a Y junction, and everyone packs into it - boarders sitting, youngsters struggling, debutantes snowploughing, and intermediates just all over the place. These plank-riders picked a line whilst piling in at full bore, and went for it. One missed people by cms all the way down, had to get inadvertent air over a bank, and disappeared, arms flailing. Mental.
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@valais2, Outside our flat on the way down to Bellecote there's a very busy , and sometimes quite tricky narrow blue piste packed with beginners, yet the idiots fly down there.
There's a time and a place to be a hero and draw admiring glances as you give it full welly, and that piste at 10am is not it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@valais2, Unfortunately unless resorts start taking measures, all you can do on a personal level is be hyper-aware.
I make a point of trying to maintain a similar awareness to how I would when driving (if not more so), because the biggest threat is always other people (if you are skiing within your limits)
I guess one thing could be video screens at lift queues educating people how to behave safely/respectfully on the mountain. e.g. not straight-lining through crowds, not stopping in the middle of the slope, not just merging onto the piste without looking. Lift queues can be boring, and I'm sure these could be produced in a way that draws the eye to them
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Just back from a week in Val Thorens and amazed I didn't see lots of accidents! The first 2 days the pistes were crowded due to the poor weather meaning only the lower runs were open. SO many people going inappropriately fast through the village and beginner areas where there are people stopped, novices, kids and pedestrians galore!
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Im not sure what the downhill skier can do to stay safe
I guess
Try to make turns of the same arc size, ie a pattern
look up, as you turn, if possible
listen
try not to take up entire piste, however for skiers new to skiing, it is human nature to use a lot of the piste
because ; the center of the piste can be scraped, icy, and the better turning conditions, usually found in a channel , either side of the piste
Better skiers might use one channel, if they are confident with short turns
Ski early am, and late afternoon perhaps,
Avoid Boozy resorts, national holidays
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Unfortunately anecdotal evidence suggests that while all the above is good advice it's not enough to keep you safe from others. The only way to guarantee avoiding ski accidents is not to ski (probably).
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absolutely.
the last on-piste impact I witnessed was exactly that... instructor several turns in to perfect demonstration of C-shape turns, taken out by someone totally out of control in a permanent skid traverse, trying to catch up with his mates. fortunately, just a glancing blow.
is the instructor expected to look up every 3 seconds to see if it's safe to make the next turn?
you certainly can't get much more uniform and predictable turns than that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There is no such thing as 'you cut me up' in skiing. It is the responsibility of the uphill skier to avoid anyone below him, even if they stop suddenly or turn erratically.
The FIS code says, quite clearly:
'The skier or snowboarder in front has priority.
The skier or snowboarder moving behind
another in the same direction must keep
sufficient distance between himself and the
other skier or snowboarder so as to leave the
preceding skier or snowboarder enough space
to make all his movements freely.'
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hospitalised twice courtesy of being hit from behind while teaching, one helicopter trip. Both times season passes removed and cut in half (NZ skifields). Does my head in, have mopped up the carnage on Patrol and I shudder when i see people skiing or boarding (neither are better or worse than another, idiots come in all shapes and sizes)
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There's very little you can do to avoid them - skiing later in the day is the worst bit for me. Those last runs back to the resort are usually crammed with people of all abilities travelling at completely different speeds in slushy grim stuff. Often the best way back is to pick a more difficult run. Or even... (and this is akin to heresy) take the lift back. I've done that many times at L2A with the kids to avoid having to crawl down the blue run into the resort or the absolutely suicidal green 
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You know it makes sense.
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As much as I see exuberant youths hooning around on fat-boys, I see even more accidents caused by people just setting off down the slope without first looking up.
Often there is a good skier at the front who looks, waits, then goes, but all the subsequent people just set off at 2 second intervals without the slightest care in the world.
You would not walk out across a motorway without looking to see if anything is coming, so why would you do it on busy piste?
Ski classes need to start teaching this again.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Spin Doctor, no shame in downloading. Safety first at all times.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@WindOfChange, Ski classes need to start DOING this themselves! I've lost count of the times I've had a ski school (usually ESF with a bunch of kids) set off in front of me without bothering to look up.
In the end, it's all about respect for others on the slopes, and some people just don't have any.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| moosepig wrote: |
| @Spin Doctor, no shame in downloading. Safety first at all times. |
+1 Especially as the valley run is often some variation of busy, lumpy, icy, slushy or narrow.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
It does somewhat sap the enjoyment out of the run having to constantly watch and listen behind and take avoiding action.
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Exactly my thoughts this week!
I‘m snowboarding quite slow (I‘d say my ability allows me to go faster, but I don‘t like it) so I‘m overtaken by many people. Even when I‘m doing super-regular turns, people often pass me with a distance of less than a metre. What if I slip or fall?
It makes me angry and sometimes I wish I had ski poles to stick out as @dublin2 says. I also see other people being passed like this, so it‘s not just me.
I think I already avoided many collisions by taking precaution like quickly cutting my next turn shorter when I hear a scraping noise right behind me (and then seeing the person passing right next to me in the spot I would have been if I had done my regular turn).
I noticed that quite a few people on the slopes have a kind of tunnel vision, following their chosen line and speed without caring about any other people around. I doubt they even notice other people as they don‘t even move their head at the slightest to watch out at crossing pistes, before starting their run etc.
I could go on and on, but I wanna enjoy my après beer and not be angry 😉. Safe skiing/boarding every one!
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@Spin Doctor, is that green run the Demoiselles? Is it that bad when late in the day?
I’m heading to L2A next week with two beginners in our party. We’re staying near the village lift for the very reason to allow the beginners to actually ski home. Is it not safe for beginners then?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| moosepig wrote: |
@WindOfChange, Ski classes need to start DOING this themselves! I've lost count of the times I've had a ski school (usually ESF with a bunch of kids) set off in front of me without bothering to look up.
In the end, it's all about respect for others on the slopes, and some people just don't have any. |
But you saw the instructor go? So logic dictates that his class will obey his order to, "Follow me."
Although technically correct, you have possibly unrealistic expectations. Oddly, a ski school student is the most predictable class of skier, just not necessarily the most law abiding one.
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i'm gona be slightly controversial so i'm bracing myself (lol) but...
some people, and certainly not in all cases, but sometimes, the person that has been overtaken needs to accept that others on the piste have drastically higher ability and control than they do.
I see far more aggression by people who feel the person overtaking was too close or going too fast than i do actual collisions, when in reality they were never in any danger but rather that they simply perceived they were.
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| Quote: |
Just back from a week in Val Thorens and amazed I didn't see lots of accidents! The first 2 days the pistes were crowded due to the poor weather meaning only the lower runs were open. SO many people going inappropriately fast through the village and beginner areas where there are people stopped, novices, kids and pedestrians galore!
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@slulu, agree with you on every count (we stayed in Les Menuires a couple of weeks ago and were surprised by how busy the main VT areas were). In the general chaos/crowds, I noticed a beginner on her own who seemed remarkably unfazed by it all and was carrying on with her perfectly executed slow snowplough turns while people were whizzing past either side of her and cutting in front of her with centimetres to spare – think I'd have been terrified when I was at that stage of learning!
Luckily I didn't have the 'pleasure' of experiencing the straight-liners mentioned in this thread but I seemed to notice more people at the edge of control this year than usual, maybe just due to the fact that lift closures on several days were making the accessible slopes more crowded. Definitely saw several near misses and got wiped out myself by someone who'd been uphill of me, when I was making slow and predictable turns down one side of the (very wide) piste – no harm done except a few bruises and he was apologetic, but he slammed into me with what felt like a lot of force – was glad I was going slowly myself.
On a slightly related note, I had been reading with some interest the separate thread about pole clicking when overtaking on narrow pistes and, as a slower skier who gets overtaken a lot, was observing the practice during my week away. My anecdotal experience is that most people rather pointlessly use it to signify 'I've started coming past you already, and am leaving an inch-wide gap' – although there was one exception where someone clicked, then shouted 'On your left' before starting to go past, which was actually quite helpful 
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
i'm gona be slightly controversial so i'm bracing myself (lol) but...
some people, and certainly not in all cases, but sometimes, the person that has been overtaken needs to accept that others on the piste have drastically higher ability and control than they do.
I see far more aggression by people who feel the person overtaking was too close or going too fast than i do actual collisions, when in reality they were never in any danger but rather that they simply perceived they were. |
I'll stick my head above the parapet too and agree with you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| eddiethebus wrote: |
i'm gona be slightly controversial so i'm bracing myself (lol) but...
some people, and certainly not in all cases, but sometimes, the person that has been overtaken needs to accept that others on the piste have drastically higher ability and control than they do.
I see far more aggression by people who feel the person overtaking was too close or going too fast than i do actual collisions, when in reality they were never in any danger but rather that they simply perceived they were. |
I'll stick my head above the parapet too and agree with you. |
Guess one problem is it's hard for the person being overtaken to know how in control the overtaker was. Were they a hugely experienced ex-racer tootling down at what to them is 60% throttle, or a few weekends of experience lad, up from Marseille and trying to hang onto his mates? The 'safe' margin is different for those two.
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@midgetbiker, yeah, it’s tricky sometimes. I passed someone skiing very erratically on Saturday and there was a very definitely a do I pass more safely by going slowly and increase exposure or slip past quickly maybe increasing perceived risk/danger.
I nipped past. Didn’t seem to be an issue.
Tricky.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| midgetbiker wrote: |
| eddiethebus wrote: |
i'm gona be slightly controversial so i'm bracing myself (lol) but...
some people, and certainly not in all cases, but sometimes, the person that has been overtaken needs to accept that others on the piste have drastically higher ability and control than they do.
I see far more aggression by people who feel the person overtaking was too close or going too fast than i do actual collisions, when in reality they were never in any danger but rather that they simply perceived they were. |
I'll stick my head above the parapet too and agree with you. |
Guess one problem is it's hard for the person being overtaken to know how in control the overtaker was. Were they a hugely experienced ex-racer tootling down at what to them is 60% throttle, or a few weekends of experience lad, up from Marseille and trying to hang onto his mates? The 'safe' margin is different for those two. |
If you're being overtaken, it's hard to evaluate or trust in the skills and ability of the person behind you, so I feel nervous. Equally, in poor conditions, I don't always trust myself, so why would I be happy that someone behind me has somehow evaluated my abilities and is so certain that I won't make a mistake that it's safe to pass flat out at a foot or two seperation.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@midgetbiker, The aggression you see will to some degree come from the shock/surprise of someone passing closely when they weren't expecting it. As you say, maybe perceived rather than actual danger, but not really a surprising reaction, especially if they were thinking "if I'd turned half a second later we would've collided," even if that's not the case.
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| Quote: |
pass flat out at a foot or two seperation
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I don't think either of us is talking about passing with a foot or two of separation (well I'm not anyway), but you see examples of people becoming irate when a clear metre or more is left, and there really was no chance of a collision even in the event of a fall etc. I imagine though that when someone is passed at a significant speed differential, especially if they are already on edge, then maybe this effects their estimation of the margin that was allowed.
Not saying for a minute there aren't a whole load of over fast idiots out there, but just maybe the perception from some perspectives is that it's worse than it really is.
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You know it makes sense.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| Quote: |
pass flat out at a foot or two seperation
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I don't think either of us is talking about passing with a foot or two of separation (well I'm not anyway), but you see examples of people becoming irate when a clear metre or more is left, and there really was no chance of a collision even in the event of a fall etc. I imagine though that when someone is passed at a significant speed differential, especially if they are already on edge, then maybe this effects their estimation of the margin that was allowed.
Not saying for a minute there aren't a whole load of over fast idiots out there, but just maybe the perception from some perspectives is that it's worse than it really is. |
I've definitely been passed at that sort of seperation...
But yes, there's people who feel they should be given many yards of personal space and get upset with anyone passing within their perceived radius. Those people are often the ones swinging side to side, full width of a cat track, but there you go.
Funnily enough, it all comes back to everyone having a bit of common sense, a bit of awareness, some anticipation, and a little consideration.*
*this may be the correct answer for all posts on snowheads beginning "The problem with..." 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Is a metre a reasonable clearance when either are travelling at reasonable speeds? Even if I pass someone on their skier's right while they are turning left, I would feel this is an inadequate gap. Two metres would still put us within arms length of each other, and that's without taking account of the extensions that are poles. But then I can be found giving arm signals when skiing across a wide piste as I am unable to continually watch what's behind me (because ultimately I have to look ahead)
@BigSouthernJesse, I agree with your summary, but not so much with your categorisation of "those people" 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@motyl, Yeah, fair point! I got a bit carried away.... on a forum... shock horror... Edit that to "occasionally".
I'm also one for arm signals. And as a boarder, I'm halfway to looking back up the hill anyway, so I'll check uphill if I'm about to do something out of synch with the last few turns that's not prompted by the terrain or obstacles ahead.
The times I seem to get the really close passes whizzing passed me are cat tracks. I lead with my right foot, so I'll hug the right hand edge of the track, long, shallow turns maybe only 2 or 3 feet wide wide, with the right hand turn within inches of the edge. This keeps me as tidily as possible to one side, and gives me the best visibility of those ahead, beside and behind me. From time to time I get passed on the short side, from the deepest part of any blindspot possible. if it's particularly busy and there's a big block of people across the slope, I can see it's a gap that a good skier can use. From time to time it happens when there is lots of space to my left - I can only guess that this is done deliberately as a game to shake up the snowboarder. It has involved an unexpected shoulder check once when the skier didn't judge it very well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A couple of years ago we took up snowshoeing and now we seem to do at least one day in five snowshoeing on any trip. It made us realise how often we went out in crowded, bad-weather conditions and didn't really enjoy it, just because we'd bought the pass. Similarly, we'll often go for a walk on a Sat/Sun when it's obvious the nutters are out - typically young guys in a group determined to get their adrenalin-fix before it's back to work/school on Monday, irrespective of how busy the slopes are. If you haven't tried it, I'd recommend giving it a go so that you have an alternative. It's amazing how quickly you get away from the noise and hassle of the pistes into the woods, but still remain close to the resort and can get home easily. We now don't buy a period pass any more (unless good weather is absolutely guaranteed) and save a day's pass by taking a snowshoe excursion.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@motyl, yeah, your right, a metre isn't as much as it sounds. Which means that in reality I give a lot more clearance than that, way more when I think about it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
midgetbiker wrote:
eddiethebus wrote:
i'm gona be slightly controversial so i'm bracing myself (lol) but...
some people, and certainly not in all cases, but sometimes, the person that has been overtaken needs to accept that others on the piste have drastically higher ability and control than they do.
I see far more aggression by people who feel the person overtaking was too close or going too fast than i do actual collisions, when in reality they were never in any danger but rather that they simply perceived they were.
I'll stick my head above the parapet too and agree with you.
Guess one problem is it's hard for the person being overtaken to know how in control the overtaker was. Were they a hugely experienced ex-racer tootling down at what to them is 60% throttle, or a few weekends of experience lad, up from Marseille and trying to hang onto his mates? The 'safe' margin is different for those two.
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I am sure you are right that there are plenty of cases where a skillful overtaker did not put the downhill skier at risk but the downhill skier FELT at risk. Thing is, I think it lacks courtesy and empathy to make the downhill skier FEEL at risk. If you are truly a skillful skier you don't NEED to do that and it is a bit obnoxious to put the fear up someone.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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before I sound whiter than white, I'll admit that I have scared nervous skiers when I felt there was no risk.
When I've done it I do tend to shout an apology though rather tell them that they are being silly...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@under a new name, UANN - where was this? I saw the aftermath of an ESS instructor take a rise at speed and pile straight into a stationary skier. Yes, skier should not have stopped below the rise. But maybe the instructor should have thought a little? She (ESS instructor) was left with horrendous facial injuries and concussion - carted off to Sion.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jedster wrote: |
before I sound whiter than white, I'll admit that I have scared nervous skiers when I felt there was no risk.
When I've done it I do tend to shout an apology though rather tell them that they are being silly... |
+1
Not deliberately I assume 
First you have to be aware, then you have to develop judgement. That's a continuous process and you aren't going to get it completely right all the time (though I am improving) so speed appropriate to the conditions is important.
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
i'm gona be slightly controversial so i'm bracing myself (lol) but...
some people, and certainly not in all cases, but sometimes, the person that has been overtaken needs to accept that others on the piste have drastically higher ability and control than they do.
I see far more aggression by people who feel the person overtaking was too close or going too fast than i do actual collisions, when in reality they were never in any danger but rather that they simply perceived they were. |
As a fast experienced skier, if I’m passing much slower skiers on moderate terrain I give them much more room than I deem to be safe. It’s obvious they will get upset if I blast past them within a couple of metres, so I don’t do it. It’s not unreasonable to slow down and give them extra space. If you suddenly invade someone’s personal space (whether safely or not) they will probably get upset about it.
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FAQ
(and there was no reason at all to be anywhere near me, wide open groomed blue piste , almost no one one it.)