 Poster: A snowHead
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eliminating the touch plant carving on pistes .... I think to ski without poles on steeps, bumps etc you need to know how to ski with poles and the benefit of doing so and be of a competence that allows you not to use them. ie an ingrained skillset that you can visualise and mimic the use of which will give body position , timing, rhythm, correct initiation etc.... some may argue once you have the pole plant art it may benefit "not" to use them to accentuate and instil a more active mind and association, and in certain situations you can get away with it. And then the discussion goes round again .. but in my mind, ultimately when pushing your boundaries, and each is individual, in either speed, steep, depth ,bumps or mind ..yep definitely need the poles ! or you are just plateau (ing) on a plateau ..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think the term 'plant' is misleading. It suggests something static, unmoving, capable of remaining upright despite huge forces.
On my first (and only) moguls course, I was instructed to use a firm pole plant. So first time up, I jammed the pole into the mogul as hard as I could and hung on grimly as I skied past it. With entirely predictable results.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Penry, that's a good point. I usually talk about a pole tap, although in some contexts say that something much stronger than a tap is helpful.
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@rob@rar, That's a much better term, pole tap it is from now on.
The Warren Smith video that @geoffers posted is really useful for me personally as I know I have a habit of letting my elbows collapse into the body. Need to do some conditioning work on my frame I guess.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Penry wrote: |
| ...I have a habit of letting my elbows collapse into the body. Need to do some conditioning work on my frame I guess. |
Because your arms are too heavy to be supported by your muscles? I'd guess it's an acquired movement pattern rather than a lack of strength and conditioning.
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@rob@rar, Maybe 
If my upper arms hang straight down and my elbows are at 90 degs, there is no stress. But if I hold by arms out such that there is a 45 deg forward angle between upper arm and torso and a 45 lateral angle too, then I can feel the strain from armpit to elbow (triceps?) and in my back across the lower part of the shoulder blades. It feels to me like acquiring a new movement pattern would be helped by some exercises.
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Just watch Stenmark or JF Beaulieu, both supreme stylists and both positive pole planters from different eras covering both skinny long and short fat skis.
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| DrLawn wrote: |
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On the subject I think most people poles are too long by about 10cm these days, the rule about right angle and elbows under the basket is out of date.
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Yesterday on my first day I forgot to adjust my extendable poles from their 107cm packed length to my nirmal 117cm (I am 173cm). I didn't notice and my skiing certainly didn't appear to be effected at all. Today I moved them back to 117 but found them too long so I at then back to around 112cm and again found them to be good. Have I been skiing with too long poles or is using shorter poles generally a good think apart from very steep or powder snow?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Have I been skiing with too long poles or is using shorter poles generally a good think apart from very steep or powder snow?
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I ski better when I ski a bit lower (more flex at knee ankle hip) so I think erring on the short side is good.
Some people argue that standing taller is more efficient etc
Guess it is horses for courses
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Pole planting is an essential component of skiing properly. So is down-unweighting and the number of people who can do that are small. Being able to ski bumps properly, probably is the benchmark to being a good skier.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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So, are poles basically just to help you with your form by triggering some sort of subconscious muscle memory routine or does the alleged 'third point of contact" itself actually change the physics of your skiing in a way that cannot be achieved without poles?
I'm wondering whether to replace a bent pole or not.
I've never understood the pole plant, I carry cumbersome poles just for the help on a flat. I've got no bother going down the mountain on any steep, bumpy and/or ungroomed piste. I certainly can improve my form, especially off piste.
Thank you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@PeteSnow, Try going and skiing some chunky "powder" without poles like the elephant snot sort of stuff..
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 1-02-21 13:50; edited 1 time in total
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@PeteSnow, IMV. The Pole Plant is more critical in some types of turn, than others.
In Short Turns (especially Short Swings), Moguls and very steep terrain, they provide timing and extra stability. Off Piste, the "Pole Swing" is an aid to timing of the turn. In longer turns, it's more of a Pole tap.
As said previously, I like to think of the Pole Plant as the "Drum Beat" of the turn.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Mon 1-02-21 13:58; edited 3 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Double Post
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Old Fartbag, Thanks.
Do you mean they provide stability in terms of putting some weight on them when going over moguls?
Also, is the pole swing you mentioned a way of using the pole to physically help you turn? My of piste experience is mostly in skiing trees, just a little back country.
In terms of aiding with timing, this seems like a way of using the pole to assist with something you can achieve without the pole. Like a musician who doesn't use a metronome, perhaps?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Also the reach and feel can be important in variable snow - I think Warren Smith talks about "walking" down the slope so you are always getting feedback on what happens next.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dave of the Marmottes, That's an interesting idea which I will look into, thank you.
Any other points for what poles can do for you that you can't achieve without them?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| PeteSnow wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, Thanks.
Do you mean they provide stability in terms of putting some weight on them when going over moguls?
Also, is the pole swing you mentioned a way of using the pole to physically help you turn? My of piste experience is mostly in skiing trees, just a little back country.
In terms of aiding with timing, this seems like a way of using the pole to assist with something you can achieve without the pole. Like a musician who doesn't use a metronome, perhaps? |
Yes, the fact you lean on them a bit, aids balance, timing and helps keep you facing down the hill (provided you push the arm that has just planted the pole forward again, so it doesn't get left behind).
When skiing a steep, narrow pitch - it's essential for getting the body into the right position ie. with anticipation and well d/hill for doing one turn at at a time and in control. Here putting weight on the pole helps gives the confidence to commit the body down the hill for each turn.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 1-02-21 14:15; edited 1 time in total
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@Old Fartbag, Okay cool, thanks. I always thought that you were not supposed to put weight on them which I guess is why I thought that they were pointless. Especially as I can jump and zip around moguls without them.
I'm still struggling to understand how they will improve my timing and balance and weather or not I'm facing down a hill. I believe I'm confidently committing my body to these things anyway.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PeteSnow wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, Okay cool, thanks. I always thought that you were not supposed to put weight on them which I guess is why I thought that they were pointless. Especially as I can jump and zip around moguls without them.
I'm still struggling to understand how they will improve my timing and balance and weather or not I'm facing down a hill. I believe I'm confidently committing my body to these things anyway. |
Maybe, thinking of the Pole Plant as helping the Rhythm of the turns, might make more sense to you. You will know that getting into a consistent rhythm, improves one's performance - so the use of the Pole Plant, is similar to how a musician would use a metronome ie. to keep their timing completely consistent.
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@Old Fartbag, Thank you. I think what you describe there is what I thought they were for - assisting you with rhythm, should you not have it. I'll certainly be open minded and give it a try, especially off piste where I am weak.
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| PeteSnow wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, Thank you. I think what you describe there is what I thought they were for - assisting you with rhythm, should you not have it. I'll certainly be open minded and give it a try, especially off piste where I am weak. |
Yup, but it is only one element. ie. Stability, Balance and Support in Bumps and helping to commit the whole body downhill when it gets steep (so you don't get left behind), being 2 other critical elements.
When, where and how you plant your Pole, is also crucial.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| colly10 wrote: |
| Should i be including it in all I do? |
Pretty much, yes. Practice until it becomes second nature and you no longer need to focus on doing it. There will be some situations when a good pole plant makes an significant difference to your skiing. |
I couldn’t agree more.
Having once also questioned the need for pole planting, it is now an essential tool, when required. Really steep pistes, short slalom type turns, heavily chopped up/soft snow on steeper pitches. Great for balance/control and ‘driving’ skis when required.
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