 Poster: A snowHead
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The insurance companies don't only focus on risk but are seriously interested in cost. So a helicopter rescue for a relatively minor injury off piste will cost many times rescue of the same injury on piste. Evenif the injury/death rate is the same per customer there is strong financial pressure to not insure for off piste.
Who says skiing is a high risk sport. Sports like football, rugby, field hockey, netball etc have a far higher injury rate, many times higher on a daily rate and way way higher if you calculate it on participant hours.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@olderscot, I like you way of numbers, but do not think insurers look at risk as much as total cost of one incident. Country and location in the mountains can effect costs a lot.
It's just like driving a car - be careful oneself and watch out for others, that will reduce risk.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Sarge McSarge, Sorry did not see page 2, but happy to see we quite agree.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| dogwatch wrote: |
| primoz wrote: |
| PS: If you make some statistical research, I'm pretty sure there's more injuries and deaths per 1000 skiers off pisten then on piste. |
That certainly seems to be the belief of the insurers, who do have the statistics. |
You might well think that is conclusive, however stanton thinks he knows better than the the insurers.... |
I think this is more to do with what insurers are and are not able to restrict coverage on. Obviously it’s not possible to restrict coverage for skiing on piste as that’s what people mainly buy the product for. But they can slip in restrictions about offpiste.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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By the way, tragic and I hope the child makes a full recovery. I also agree that age isn’t a factor - children often start skiing at age 3 and can handle a red or black by age 5 if they’ve spent a lot of time on snow. It is also hard for parents to judge the next step up, and I think every parent that has skied with their children has had a few heart in their mouth moments when they’ve crashed. Feel for the parents.
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| Themasterpiece wrote: |
... I think this is more to do with what insurers are and are not able to restrict coverage on. Obviously it’s not possible to restrict coverage for skiing on piste as that’s what people mainly buy the product for. But they can slip in restrictions about offpiste. ...
.... - children often start skiing at age 3 and can handle a red or black by age 5 if they’ve spent a lot of time on snow. ... |
On the first point I think you're right. Insurance companies are businesses, and I'm sure they know their statistics, but they're not compelled to run with a mathematically sound risk/profit ratio for everything. They can quite reasonably stick arbitrary exclusions in there which will have some effect on custom and some other effect on costs. They can make that model work any way they like. And it's in their interests to sow fear and doubt rather than statistics.
On kids, I don't spend that much time at resorts but I've never seen a little kid on a black run and I'd be very wary of that. My washed-up-professional mates have kids who were riding from about age 3, but not down black pistes. It's no skin off my nose, but I don't think many parents would take kids onto an expert run.
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| Sarge McSarge wrote: |
| The insurance companies don't only focus on risk but are seriously interested in cost. So a helicopter rescue for a relatively minor injury off piste will cost many times rescue of the same injury on piste. Evenif the injury/death rate is the same per customer there is strong financial pressure to not insure for off piste. |
I'm not so sure , heli flies a lot for on piste injuries in major Austrian resorts to the extent I'd say it was primary evac for anything head/spinal or lower limb. But the core point is sound.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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78% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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I suspect the true number of skiing accidents/injuries is underreported. If you look around during a typical crowded day at any ski station, you'll see 2-4 people getting carted off on sledges. A lot of injuries happen on the slopes, people tough it out then get home and find out they have hairline fractures or torn ligaments.
I must be skiing with blinders on as I see very few skier-to-skier collisions. It's always the uphill skier's fault, by definition if you look at the fine print, you have a responsibility to ski in control.
Off-piste vs. on-piste? as above, percentages would be useful. However, there's the point that anyone skiing OP probably has the skills to get themselves out of bad situations.
Skiing is as risky as you want to make it. I have never been injured or hit another skier. However, I'm pretty conservative and like to avoid crowds.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Sarge McSarge wrote: |
| The insurance companies don't only focus on risk but are seriously interested in cost. So a helicopter rescue for a relatively minor injury off piste will cost many times rescue of the same injury on piste. Evenif the injury/death rate is the same per customer there is strong financial pressure to not insure for off piste. |
I'm not so sure , heli flies a lot for on piste injuries in major Austrian resorts to the extent I'd say it was primary evac for anything head/spinal or lower limb. But the core point is sound. |
I'd agree with that but not everywhere. In Zell am See the heli is almost constant sight as it comes in from Zell, Kaprun, Saalbach etc and lands at the hospital at the top end of the lake. In Obergurgl I've only ever seen it used for avalanche control. Never once seen it used medically there.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Pasigal wrote: |
| I It's always the uphill skier's fault,. |
Yebbut not always - too many people are entirely ignorant of the requirement to stop where they can be seen (and at the side of a piste) or look uphill& yield before starting out. I often say it takes 2 to tango and when you ski some some people who complain about getting hit you can often identify why they have a greater chance of being hit.
And that's before we get to the peverse interpretation of the principle that "downhill skier has right of way" to mean the skier coming down the hill which I've heard from some numbnuts on the chairlift.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| robboj wrote: |
| I do wish British TO's would stop marketing tobogganing evenings as some kind of jolly gentle pastime for all the family. Some of the tracks I have seen would rival bobsleigh for danger in terms of the skill and experience of the participants relative to the severity and condition of the run! |
We had a great time doing the tobogganing in St Anton, but it was only because I managed to roll out of the way at the last second at the bottom of the run that someone didn't smash straight into my leg. A fun night, but certainly not gentle!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DJL wrote: |
| Austria is not safe. |
@DJL, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmm.... I agree with the uphill skiers fault, especially on blue-red runs, I think the rule in the code is there for a reason. Less necessary on expert areas where you should have basic competencies just to be there.
On groomed blues and reds you can't assume that everyone on the hill has the same capabilities as yourself. There will be disabled people, partially sighted people, children, etc and they all have every right to be there too. By nature they will occasionlly do 'unexpected' things. Is it their fault for doing something unexpected? Yes, of course. But is it their fault if someone comes plowing into them as a result? No, its the uphill skiers fault.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Pasigal wrote: |
| I It's always the uphill skier's fault,. |
Yebbut not always - too many people are entirely ignorant of the requirement to stop where they can be seen (and at the side of a piste) or look uphill& yield before starting out. I often say it takes 2 to tango and when you ski some some people who complain about getting hit you can often identify why they have a greater chance of being hit.
And that's before we get to the peverse interpretation of the principle that "downhill skier has right of way" to mean the skier coming down the hill which I've heard from some numbnuts on the chairlift. |
I also have little sympathy for people who cross behind a ski instructor and then express dismay that the following group don't give way politely. Last time out, my son and I stopped to sort out where we were headed next, facing opposite directions. Setting off, I turned left, he turned right, with inevitable consequences. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Canuck wrote: |
How awfull. I hope the child makes a full recovery.
It's not uncommon for 5 year olds to be on reds or even blacks. Usually with a lot of caution and guided carefully by their parent or instructor. It sounds as though it was just a terrible accident.
What worries me more than a 5 year old on a black, is people skiing straight down the beginner runs at the end of the day in a manner that wouldn't allow them to stop if a child were to fall in front of them. It's easy for advanced skiers to forget that beginners can, and will, fall anywhere, even below a crest. I'd much rather take my 5 year old down a red than a blue full of idiots... |
I agree with all of the above. One tends to see people on blue runs just get faster and faster, and a lot of the time when they are required to stop or avoid another skier they lack the expertise of being able to do a quick change of direction. I always found that on the steeper runs when with our children that while our girls practiced their skills they and others on the slope were more concerned with their turns and their skill , rather than their speed. I groan when I hear someone ask " Do you ski Fast? " the question is do you ski well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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