post something from buzzfeed also, very scientific.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@mooney058, you do realise that if you've still got your BMW X1? That if it's the "Haldex " equipped transmission that it decouples the rear drive as soon as the brakes are operated, negating any torque distribution around the vehicle platform, don't you?
It may give traction under drive torque, and very effective it is too. But it appears to offer much of a compromise under braking circumstances.
They vary alot in the concept installed within various vehicles and manufacturers, some with more scope than others.
When I eventually tried the quietest, most polite, hoot I could make my horn do one woman, standing right in my path carrying a prettily done up box from the local patisserie, looked mortally offended and gave one of those "if looks could kill" which some French women are specially good at.
Ok I see your problem, winding down the window and yelling politely: "dégage ton gros cul, espèce de pouf mal-baisée, sinon je vais casser ta putain de guele" generally is more effective for getting French women jogging on, I find.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 16-10-19 11:51; edited 1 time in total
@ski3, I'm not sure you can apply rally car behaviours to "tourist" cars...
Admittedly it appears odd, but the original application of Audi Quattro completely wrong footed the manufacturer assumptions of its effect in most areas. They just couldn't see it would hold an overall benefit until reluctantly viewed through the ongoing development.
It's the rally sector that drives many of these developments for road cars as an R+D function as it's so clear to see proof of concept measured against another. It also forced the development of front wheel drive platforms that we see today as to facilitate that particular part derives from using the same design elements, just half of them.
Nearly everything transmission wise along with suspension is more or less traceable to these activities.
Tire type has also been driven out of the same, restrictions forced by the regulations have driven the tire manufacturer to be more innovative in their approach to designing tires that cover more effectively different surfaces, rather than single type specialist options for only one scenario.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
So going back to the main topic... are we in agreement that a 4WD fitted with All Seasons and driven sensibly (with chains as backup) to the conditions will do the job?
I believe it is for the average punter living in London who doesn’t know what is a de-coupled differential, who for god knows why owns a popular SUV, and travels to the alps once a year during holidays.
I think the expectation that everyone should be on winter tyres is unrealistic and will never happen, especially not in France where they value winter tourism and this is reflected in the current laws to meet this end (which has been well debated). So if one is coming to the Haute Savoie, please carry chains, all season tyres if you can, and don’t drive like an idiot. Better still leave the tractor at home and use mass transport (and don’t eat meat )
After all it is free
After all it is free
Ozboy wrote:
So going back to the main topic... are we in agreement that a 4WD fitted with All Seasons and driven sensibly (with chains as backup) to the conditions will do the job?
I believe it is for the average punter living in London who doesn’t know what is a de-coupled differential, who for god knows why owns a popular SUV, and travels to the alps once a year during holidays.
I think the expectation that everyone should be on winter tyres is unrealistic and will never happen, especially not in France where they value winter tourism and this is reflected in the current laws to meet this end (which has been well debated). So if one is coming to the Haute Savoie, please carry chains, all season tyres if you can, and don’t drive like an idiot. Better still leave the tractor at home and use mass transport (and don’t eat meat )
The answer is “it depends”, thus no agreement that a 4wd with allseasons will be ok/sufficient. Way too many variables here:
- allseasons are very different;
-4wd assumes a heavier vehicle which when braking is a disadvantage, 4wd will not help and heavier vehicle on some allseasons might be dangerous;
- chains are useful in a very limited set of circumstances and no way a substitute for a proper winter tyres. Only really low speed and on braking on some surfaces is not good either?
As to motivations and difference in approach by French, Swiss and Austria authorities - they are certainly differ. Which one is the right one?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
ski3 wrote:
@mooney058, you do realise that if you've still got your BMW X1? That if it's the "Haldex " equipped transmission that it decouples the rear drive as soon as the brakes are operated, negating any torque distribution around the vehicle platform, don't you?
It may give traction under drive torque, and very effective it is too. But it appears to offer much of a compromise under braking circumstances.
They vary alot in the concept installed within various vehicles and manufacturers, some with more scope than others.
Never owned an X1, it does not matter. You asked a question that is the only reason I replied. I do not know where you take your wisdom from. But please do not give “advice” on things on matters you know little about. Some people googling and finding it might get hurt and nobody would want that, right?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
What's a "tire"?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
johnE wrote:
What's a "tire"?
What most people do of this argument pretty quickly I think
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Tires are the new helmets.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
davidof wrote:
"dégage ton gros cul, espèce de pouf mal-baisée, sinon je vais casser ta putain de guele" generally is more effective for getting French women jogging on, I find.
I'm keeping this
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Notwithstanding the 4x4 AWD banter, Ski3 raises a sensible point earlier in the thread about making sure that any all season tyre has appropriate snowflake/mountain marking if you want to use the car on snow, irrespective of the vehicle you are driving. My little Fiesta was great last year on the snow with Conti all-season Contacts (helps that the tyres are so small that they are not expensive).
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Given that the 3PMSF marking was introduced in around 2012 it's interesting to add some thoughts from 20 or so years ago. I drove a Landrover defender 110 up (and down) to Flaine in snow using low ration with diff lock on M&S tyres without any traction problems. A couple of years later I drove a Celica GT4 (4WD and limited slip diffs all round) in the same conditions with normal UK performance tyres (summers?) and used chains on the front only again without problems. I have also driven the same road with a front wheel drive Avensis on "summers" and chains and still managed a low speed spin, going down, on one of the tight bends when the fronts caught in a deep rut and the back end had no grip so slid past the front.
I now use winters (3PMSF) and carry chains but still think about that previous low speed spin and hope the winters have better grip. My next full replacements will be quality all seasons with the 3PMSF marking and I'll still carry the chains.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I really didn't mean to open such a can of worms. My question was a genuine one re Pirelli scorpion all season tires. On my present car I have Vredestein all seasons, they have 3PMSF markings and are very good in snow/slush. I just wondered if anyone has experience of the standard issue Land Rover tires driving to the Alps. I know full winters would be much better, I know I should invest in some.
Now about my motorcycle tires...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@harrim51, do they have 3PMSF markings?
If they do, fine.
If not, not.
This is a RR Sport, on it's presumably standard tyres, in not particularly deep snow, carefully making its way down quite a steep hill.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
dobby wrote:
My little Fiesta was great last year on the snow with Conti all-season Contacts (helps that the tyres are so small that they are not expensive).
That's good to hear, after finally needing to replace my Vredestein winter tyres (which I bought barely used from a fellow sH several years ago and have given excellent service ) I decided to stop swapping winter and summer tyres and got a set of Continental AllSeason Contacts fitted a few weeks ago. Looking forward to seeing how they perform this winter.
@harrim51, where are you going, is it a one-off trip and will you be driving around while in resort?
This is an issue faced by many LR owners and also chains of that size can be hard to find. You will need chains as a minimum. Scorpions are confusing as they are called all-seasons and have a tread pattern suggesting the same but they are not certified with the snow flake marking. It may be that the rubber compound is not optimised for winter driving (I don’t know). So don’t assume they are suitable all-seasons.
If a one off trip to a low altitude location where you will be parked up for the week then you *should* be fine with chains - driving sensibly to the conditions. Alternatively if you see yourself getting new tyres in the next 12 months then perhaps might be a good time to change them for some certified all seasons such as Michelin Cross Climates which make a size suitable for the LR - you can store the old tyres and refit them later. My friend managed to find some good reasonably priced chains last season which I will post here if I can find them.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@harrim51 To answer your question re Pirelli Scorpion™ range, of which there are three models:
As Ozboy points out below, the Pirelli Scorpion Verde All-seasons do not have Winter Tyre Certification. For me, I'm afraid, that would put them out of contention for use in the Alps in winter. An M+S designation is not relevant to slush/snow conditions, in my view.
The unanswerable question, as we've seen, is whether the inconvenience and cost of having full winter tyres + a summer set is worth the benefits, compared to staying on all-seasons and the risk you may hit conditions that they can't cope with. Up to you to decide.
All I'd add is - take chains out of the tyre choice equation: as you'll need them, whatever you opt for. When you hit the sort of conditions in the video, they'll still be in the boot. What matters is what tyres you've got on the car and whether they'll cope, then and there.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 17-10-19 11:41; edited 4 times in total
just adding to the last entry by @LaForet - IIRC it’s the PS All-Seasons which are fitted to the LR Discovery and the Verde to their ‘sports’ models. The AS are marked M+S which is not the same as the snow flake marking and do not meet the ‘winter equipment’ requirement for the Haute Savoie.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks peeps, the upside down RR is a very convincing advert!.
Its Flaine I am going to and parking up for the week (well thats the plan but things change).
It looks like close to £2000 for wheels and winter tires from LR, so they wont be getting my cash as ebay seems to have loads of wheels so will need to check fitment.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Tyre Porn
Tyrereviews.com recently posted the following video comparing the full Nokian tyre range from Summer to Studded Winter on snow, ice, wet and dry conditions. Includes a category called American All Seasons which may be the traditional M+S. There is quite a gap between the American and European All Seasons while the European All Season and Winter tyres were quite close in all areas except for Ice braking where Winter is better as expected. My take away is how well the European All Season performed compared to the Winter tyre in winter conditions but I suspect the gap between the two would have been greater in the summer / dry tests were carried out on a warmer day.
@wills_h, I wonder if it would improve the grip of my rock climbing shoes. Probably not since many really hard rock climbers prefer the cold weather where the friction between rubber and rock is higher.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Can you imagine the looks on the gendarmes faces if they stopped you to chain up and you produced a can of this stuff
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Powergrip.......increases grip by 30%, ie 0% x 1.3 = 0
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Actually, doing some research, it does look like this and similar spray-on chemicals do work, up to a point. Feedback from one review was that one application would last up to 40Kms on continuous snow/ice, perhaps 4-5kms on wet tarmac, and just 1km on dry tarmac. The examples all seemed to be of people with full winter tyres who just wanted to get up a steep, very slippery slope on a drive, track or side road before the tyres would be OK on a main road. This exactly describes the drive out of our Swiss apartment block: quite steep, with an annoying kink in it (so you can't get up speed) and often churned-up to an icy smoothness by GB and NL drivers on their summers, who then give up and roll-back into the garage to fit their chains on.
If I had conventional chains (I've got the fast-fitting Spikes Spiders) I would consider a can just to apply onto my winters, before my 1st run out of the garage. This would avoid half an hour of chain fitting and adjustment, only to have to take them off 2 minutes later once I'd got to the main road.
However, that said, I find it suspicious that the website doesn't actually have any with/without videos in real-life situations. Surely, if you're selling such a product, it'd be worth the effort? There is a video of it in use in an indoor ice rink or something, but that's not really very convincing.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Could spray some onto @mooney058, and @kosmoz, see if it gives their powers of debate more traction
Could spray some onto @mooney058, and @kosmoz, see if it gives their powers of debate more traction
Buy it. Then spray it also on your brake disks - see how that works and report here please
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
OK cars are extremely polluting but the thought of spraying god knows what this stuff contains on my tyres doesn't seem very eco at all. I doubt Gretta or Extinction Rebellion would approve.
"The ADAC, however, is a negative verdict: "The spray has no lasting effect and is rubbed off after a few meters. The closed application of the substance is less simple than one could assume. "There is no measurable effect. However, this balance sheet of the Automobile Club does not coincide with the experiences of motorists who used the device. In forums, the spray is recommended at least as a starting aid. How long the effectiveness lasts, opinions differ. However, neither the manufacturer nor private users claim that the product could be a real replacement for snow chains. And with a second possibility of use also the ADAC lifts the thumb: Sprayed under the soles of winter shoes, the spray can reduce the danger of slipping on snow and ice.
Conclusion: The Snow Grip Spray improves the adhesion so much that a start is often possible again, if previously the tires could not build up traction on snow or ice. However, the effect is not enough to handle longer distances."
So it may help you starting from a pile of snow and could be dangerous at the next corner or hitting brakes at traffic light. People should not get the impression that it is an alternative to snow tyres or a thing that would suitable for using in mountains in winter conditions. Its application window is very narrow
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
wills_h wrote:
But then again the latter are probably too busy gluing themselves to Tube Trains to pay much attention.
It's so good in the video that even though the car is front wheel drive he was spraying it on the rear too, impressive stuff if it works just by being in the vicinity
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
The Grip Spray is interesting, wasn't aware of such a thing, so thank you.
I can see a definite use for it for short manoeuvering when you'd otherwise need chains (although we tend to use socks instead). Probably worth having a couple of cans in the back of the motorhome.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
)
) I decided to stop swapping winter and summer tyres and got a set of 
