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Can anyone translate French --Speeding fine??

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Around 6 weeks after my return from Flaine ,ive had a 48 CHF charge from Hertz on my credit card. It turns out its a Admin fee for providing my details to the Swiss traffic authorities .

It looks like some sort of speeding fine but ive had nothing as of yet from the Swiss traffic authorities. Only this document from Hertz
Can anyone translate for me

thanks
[img][/img]
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The offence was in France, not slowing down to 70km/h where the Autoroute bends round in Annemasse.

Looks like you can pay it online.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
If it's of any consolation, that's a revenue raising camera only, I.e. I don't think there was ever any intention that it would contribute to road safety, only to the coffers of the French Govt.

Oh, and I would pay it PDQ.
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See that trashcan.

Throw it in.
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http://www.antai.fr - go there and it should come up in English and give instructions and online payment options. But you should have received a letter direct to your home address, which is why Hertz insist on having it and confirming that it matches the address on your driving licence. The offence was on Thursday 7th April - if you were in the Chamonix area, and had that car (Yaris, Swiss plates - you did keep the paperwork, of course...), then its best to pay unless you want to be pulled aside the next time you fly into France and examined by a gendarme with rubber gloves

Though it seems they've only given you a week from the offence to pay at the lowest rate, so it is now €180 - you can appeal, especially if they've failed to send the notice to you directly.
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ousekjarr wrote:
Though it seems they've only given you a week from the offence to pay at the lowest rate, so it is now €180 - you can appeal, especially if they've failed to send the notice to you directly.

That isn't my reading.

Can't be bothered counting days but it gives 46 days after 12/04/2016 at the lowest rate or a bit longer if paying online.
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@ousekjarr, are they obliged to send the notice directly?

I suspect @wasley, is up for €180.

It's a terrible corner though, 110kph to 70kph in about 800m with a dodgy outside lane exit to Vallard.

Pita.
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He's got till the 28th May to pay at the lowest rate, get to it!!!
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The letter has been sent to Hertz, who have charged the OP to supply the gendarmerie with his details. As I see it, he hasn't received a summons himself.
PS, I am not a lawyer, so this is just my opinion, but I'd be interested to see what happens if he doesn't pay.
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Speak to Sharkymark....
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I have only recieved the invoice from Hertz for them supplying the info to police .
It was only after 6 emails back and forth asking for proof of the fine and then threating to claim the credit card payment back that they produced this letter
If I hadn't been persistent with hertz I would be none the wiser
So I won't be paying until I recieve something from the French police
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@under a new name, if they don't send it directly, how are you supposed to know that there is a fine to be paid, and to have the reference number to pay it? The notice posted above was the demand from the French authorities that Hertz hand over the details of the renter, for which Hertz have levied an admin charge, which I presume led to a query over why they had done this, which caused them to produce the attached document. If it was simply a case of thge French authorities fining Hertz and Hertz passing that on, it would be a lot simpler - but that's not the case.

And my apologies - I misread the timescale as 12th April plus 48 hours, not 46 days Embarassed
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rjs wrote:
ousekjarr wrote:
Though it seems they've only given you a week from the offence to pay at the lowest rate, so it is now €180 - you can appeal, especially if they've failed to send the notice to you directly.

That isn't my reading.

Can't be bothered counting days but it gives 46 days after 12/04/2016 at the lowest rate or a bit longer if paying online.



This happened to me! not there but between Bourg st Maurice and St Foy.
The ticket goes to the hire company because they are the registered keeper of the vehicle
They charge you x€ "handling fee" to pass your details onto the relevant police dept.
You will receive a demand for payment in your name, which will give you time to pay at the low rate (45€) at which time you can pay it online (or not, if you prefer and hope to get away with it)

This is how it worked for me, I was flagged 18 Dec and finally received the ticket made out to me on 26 April

Bit of a b....er but still cheaper than in the UK and hopefully no points.....
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 You know it makes sense.
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If I received a fine for a traffic offence in France I'd throw it in the bin. I can't see how they would be able to link my passport details to the fine and therefore would not be able to identify me. Even if they did pull me up I'd deny ever having received it.
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Gaza wrote:
If I received a fine for a traffic offence in France I'd throw it in the bin. I can't see how they would be able to link my passport details to the fine and therefore would not be able to identify me.

That's probably true, particularly if you didn't give out your passport information when hiring the car.

But suppose you did give out your passport info and the hire company passed it along...

Quote:
Even if they did pull me up I'd deny ever having received it.

You may find yourself in a small room in France awaiting for a chance to present that point in front of a judge...?

I don't know how it works in France. In the US, you're typically asked to leave the car on the road side and take a hike. Because technically, your "driving privilege" is revoked when you fail to answer a violation notice. Meaning you're not allowed to drive...
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Gaza wrote:
If I received a fine for a traffic offence in France I'd throw it in the bin. I can't see how they would be able to link my passport details to the fine and therefore would not be able to identify me. Even if they did pull me up I'd deny ever having received it.


If you've given your passport details, credit card details & name & address to the car hire company AND assuming the camera has identified the time and vehicle correctly to match your hire then the follow up ticket WILL be addressed to you and arrive at your house. It seems to me you have about as much chance of denying it as you would if caught speeding in your own car in the UK.

However, if you don't pay and push comes to shove I don't know what sort of reciprocal prosecution arrangements there are and whether they would follow them up. I didn't fancy finding out and paid the 45€....
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@abc, I've never provided my passport details to a car rental company. For a minor traffic violation the Gendarme as hardly going to call on the resources of EUROPOL to track me down.

Unless they sent the fine via recorded delivery then the onus is on the legal authority to prove that I received it. Simply saying they posted it is insufficient to prove that it was received.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We had a parking ticket on our windscreen, but because it was our car and we return to the area regularly we paid it.
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@inspark, as I said above I have never provided my passport. All the French authorities will have is my name and address as this would be provided by the rental company. They can send a letter demanding payment of a fine but again as I said above, unless it was sent via recorded delivery and I personally signed for it, how do they prove I received it?

In the UK there is something known as a S.172 request. This is a legal requirement to provide details of the driver of the car. If you are the registered keeper and were the driver then you must complete the S.172 request which will then be used as the way of sending you the Notice of Intended Prosecution. If you are the registered keeper but not the driver, then you are required to provide the details of the driver who will then recived a S.172 and/or NIP. Failing to respond to a S.172 carries a fine of at least £150 and 6 points. It has not been unknown for people caught travelling at a speed well in excess of the speed limit to take a S.172 fine and points rather than the likely ban for the high speed.
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@Gaza, wrong.

A friend was most discomfited to find two Met detectives on his doorstep one morning over an unpaid (Swiss) speeding fine.

He had the option of an 800.-CHF fine or 3 weeks in Bern clink. (They'd tried him in absentia).

The car hire firm is likely to pass on any fine they receive, plus handling charges if you don't deal with it yourself.
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@under a new name, the Swiss authorities must have issued an arrest warrant as there is no reciprocal arrangements between the UK and EU, or any other country for that matter, to pursue motoring offences.

In theory the French could issue a European Arrest Warrant but I suspect they are no more likely to do so than the UK is to issue one for a French national caught speeding in a UK hire car.
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under a new name wrote:

The car hire firm is likely to pass on any fine they receive, plus handling charges if you don't deal with it yourself.


Each country is different but in general, once a car hire company has fulfilled their legal obligation to provide the details of the driver their part in it ends and they cannot be fined as the offense is an individual one and not a corporate one.
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under a new name wrote:
If it's of any consolation, that's a revenue raising camera only, I.e. I don't think there was ever any intention that it would contribute to road safety, only to the coffers of the French Govt.


Ah but that's because you always take the exit after the cam. If you stay on the A40 it then does a right-left chicane. Loads of people spin on the left-hander, especially in the wet, because the solid white line on the apex of the outside-lane has no grip. So rather than fix the white line (with gritted paint or moving it closer to the barrier) they whack in a speed-cam. That's how the numpties do road-safety these days... rolling eyes
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Actually, while the chance of getting caught is infinitesimal, it's non-zero.

I received something like that in Canada. It took a while for it to arrived at the mail of my by then previous address. I had moved to another state. The mail forwarding worked flawlessly in that case. In the letter, it was clearly spelled out that my driving privilege were suspended in Canada. But fortunately for me, since I moved to a different state, I had exchanged my driver's license already. There's no connection between the old and new license.

So, you may not get taken aside at the airport, and no police would come to your door, your license is nevertheless suspended in the country of the violation. So the next time you drive in that country, you're technically driving without a valid license.

Unintentionally driving without a valid license happens often enough. People moved and didn't get the notice. So the chance exist that when they got stopped for some other reason in the future, it would come up as a suspended license. It used to be, the driver is asked to step out of the car and wait for someone else who has a valid license to move the car. It's quite embarrassing and inconvenient. But I've heard of cases where the driver was taken to the holding cell while awaiting to speak to the judge at the next earliest time traffic court. That could mean Monday morning at 9am, while the driver spends Saturday and Sunday waiting in that little room.
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Gaza wrote:
Unless they sent the fine via recorded delivery then the onus is on the legal authority to prove that I received it. Simply saying they posted it is insufficient to prove that it was received.


I don't think that is correct. Mrs. Tubaski studied law and serves legal documents in the course of her work. She tells me that (in the UK at least) proof of posting by regular post (to the correct last known address) is considered good service of a document. There is no requirement to use recorded or registered mail. Whether that is the same in France is another matter of course.
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@Gaza, issuing an arrest warrant, yes, they most certainly did.
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Gaza wrote:
@under a new name, the Swiss authorities must have issued an arrest warrant as there is no reciprocal arrangements between the UK and EU, or any other country for that matter, to pursue motoring offences.

In theory the French could issue a European Arrest Warrant but I suspect they are no more likely to do so than the UK is to issue one for a French national caught speeding in a UK hire car.


In reality the French just need to get the fine confirmed by the UK authorities and send in the sheriffs to recover their dosh. It is very simple and one of the beauties of the EU.

Quote:
n February 2005, the Council adopted the Council Framework Decision on the application of the principle of mutual recognition for financial penalties.

This enables a judicial or administrative authority to transmit a financial penalty directly to an authority in another EU country and to have that penalty recognised and executed without any further formality.


Britain is also covered by the EU Cross Border Enforcement Directive despite refusing to sign up due to a ruling by the ECJ.
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@Tubaski, you are correct in that there is no legal requirement to use recorded post. However, where normal 1st Class post is used it is open to rebuttal both in terms of when it was received or if it was received at all. I'm specifically referring the the Road Traffic Act in this context.

The landmark case was Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside [2009] EWHC 2924 (Admin). The particular aspects of this case concerned a NIP received on Day 16 but it is also considered persuasive where someone claims it was never received.

None of this matter to the OP but it is useful to know. Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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davidof wrote:
Gaza wrote:
@under a new name, the Swiss authorities must have issued an arrest warrant as there is no reciprocal arrangements between the UK and EU, or any other country for that matter, to pursue motoring offences.

In theory the French could issue a European Arrest Warrant but I suspect they are no more likely to do so than the UK is to issue one for a French national caught speeding in a UK hire car.


In reality the French just need to get the fine confirmed by the UK authorities and send in the sheriffs to recover their dosh. It is very simple and one of the beauties of the EU.


I can't see how that could work. The European Small Claims procedure or the European Payment Order only apply to civil claims, not criminal.

davidof wrote:

Quote:
n February 2005, the Council adopted the Council Framework Decision on the application of the principle of mutual recognition for financial penalties.

This enables a judicial or administrative authority to transmit a financial penalty directly to an authority in another EU country and to have that penalty recognised and executed without any further formality.


Britain is also covered by the EU Cross Border Enforcement Directive despite refusing to sign up due to a ruling by the ECJ.


What is the mechanism for this? I was under the impression that successive UK Governments had refused to ratify it.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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under a new name wrote:
@Gaza, issuing an arrest warrant, yes, they most certainly did.


It is interesting that a Swiss court could prosecute with the evidence they had before them i.e. a letter from a rental company naming [i]the person whose name was on the rental agreement.[/] The reason I have stressed that point is that it does not mean that the renter was the driver. What if there had been 2 or more drivers on the rental agreement?

In the UK it is not unknown for the CPS/PF to try to bring a speeding case against a registered keeper despite having no evidence they were the driver. Most of these cases are thrown out. The CPS will often bring both a S.172 and a speeding offence to court. Any lawyer worth their salt will have the speeding thrown out as without the admission on the S.172 form there is unlikely to be any evidence to convict of the speeding. The exception to this would be if the office was detected by a front facing camera.
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Gaza wrote:
davidof wrote:
Gaza wrote:
@under a new name, the Swiss authorities must have issued an arrest warrant as there is no reciprocal arrangements between the UK and EU, or any other country for that matter, to pursue motoring offences.

In theory the French could issue a European Arrest Warrant but I suspect they are no more likely to do so than the UK is to issue one for a French national caught speeding in a UK hire car.


In reality the French just need to get the fine confirmed by the UK authorities and send in the sheriffs to recover their dosh. It is very simple and one of the beauties of the EU.


I can't see how that could work. The European Small Claims procedure or the European Payment Order only apply to civil claims, not criminal.


It is part of a 2005 directive on mutual recognition of fines. French law applies in this case.

davidof wrote:

Quote:
n February 2005, the Council adopted the Council Framework Decision on the application of the principle of mutual recognition for financial penalties.

This enables a judicial or administrative authority to transmit a financial penalty directly to an authority in another EU country and to have that penalty recognised and executed without any further formality.


Britain is also covered by the EU Cross Border Enforcement Directive despite refusing to sign up due to a ruling by the ECJ.


What is the mechanism for this? I was under the impression that successive UK Governments had refused to ratify it.[/quote]

They have but a ECJ ruling, which the UK is subject too, effectively means the UK has to comply with information requests. Although in this case they know the identity of the driver.

I have no idea if the French try to enforce speeding fines in the UK. Maybe the OP can not pay and we'll find out.
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Useful article from Telegraph last year explaining current situation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11547421/UK-drivers-caught-by-French-speed-cameras-to-face-fines.html
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Your choice but is really worth messing about for what in the overall scheme is things is not a large amount. Don't get me wrong, I'd be really cheesed off and it is money I'd rather spend on something else but do you really want to risk spending time in pokey the next time you are in France?
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Per the Telegraph I am slightly surprised that Hertz didn't just take the fine and an admin fee from your card.
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Perhaps they did, and the 48€ was the fine plus a 3€ admin charge.
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Hells Bells wrote:
Perhaps they did, and the 48€ was the fine plus a 3€ admin charge.


No it was just the Admin fee.... 45CHF Admin 3CHF VAT
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[quote="wasley"]
Hells Bells wrote:
Perhaps they did, and the 48€ was the fine plus a 3€ admin charge.


No it was just the Admin fee.... 45CHF Admin 3CHF VAT[/quote

That's the Swiss for you.
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....so ignoring my 'it actually wasn't me, no, it really wasn't me' fine is probably a bad idea then. Best dust off my Franglais.
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@wasley, Hertz have now submitted your details to the French Authorities so they have discharged their duty. It is now up to the French to decide whether it is worth sending you a ticket. According to the Telegraph article the French have given up issuing tickets to foreigners so you probably won't hear any more. If you do then pay it otherwise ignore it.

Seems like a another good reason for hiring from the Swiss side not the French. Had you hired from the French side then Hertz would have paid the fine and then charged you the fine plus an admin fee.
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Timc wrote:
...the French have given up issuing tickets to foreigners so you probably won't hear any more.


Oh no they haven't!
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