 Poster: A snowHead
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In my experience there are a few of things that winter tyres alone can't cope with.
Firstly going uphill in heavy slush in a FWD car. It has rained and the packed snow that has been lying on the road for about a month all turned to very wet slush, then there was a hairpin bend in the road. The car just could not keep enough traction to push the slush out of the way. May have been ok with AWD but had to fit chains, this was actually with spiked winters!
Freezing rain can also be a problem either up or downhill regardless of AWD. Was going down from the village to the INN valley again with spikes, no problems for me. But the road was littered with mainly German and Dutch cars trying to get up and down (transfer day) pulled in to the side of the road fitting chains while others were ploughing into barriers before fitting theirs.
Wet ice going up and down hill, got stuck coming out of apartment 15% gradient sheet ice and light rain. Stopped car put handbrake on but left engine running to warm cabin, opened tailgate to get socks out and when the tailgate hit the stops the car started to slide backwards. Fortunately I was on the drivers side at the time and could jump in and stop the car with the foot brake. Switched it off, put it in gear and fitted the socks and drove away no problem.
Socks would have helped with winters in the second instance too, they help mop the water away from the contact patch.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Chris_n, how does a sock help mop the water away from the contact patch?
For wet ice you found socks better than spikes? What tyres were you using?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@mooney058, I didn't have spikes then, that incident was the deciding point to buy them. They were Hankook winters
The bumpf that came with the socks said it wickd the water away, certainly had a lot more grip with them than the winters as was evidenced by pulling away on the same gradient that the handbrake skidded on in a FWD car and that it couldn't drive up in the first place.
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| Chris_n wrote: |
@mooney058, I didn't have spikes then, that incident was the deciding point to buy them. They were Hankook winters
The bumpf that came with the socks said it wickd the water away, certainly had a lot more grip with them than the winters as was evidenced by pulling away on the same gradient that the handbrake skidded on in a FWD car and that it couldn't drive up in the first place. |
There is no way socks could wick water away faster/more efficient that a winter tyre with that is designed to evacuate water/slush. The socks might have been better for moving on wet ice from 0 to 10, but no way they could evacuate slush better than winters even at slow speeds.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@mooney058, I didn't say they could move slush, I had to put chains on for that. I am relaying my actual experience of living in the mountains over many winters. All I am saying is that for me and others in these circumstances winter tyres alone could not cope and anyone relying on them in the icy conditions did not have sufficient traction whether AWD or not. Socks in the one instance I used them worked for me.
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@Chris_n, "Stopped car put handbrake on but left engine running to warm cabin, opened tailgate to get socks out and when the tailgate hit the stops the car started to slide backwards. Fortunately I was on the drivers side at the time and could jump in and stop the car with the foot brake. Switched it off, put it in gear and fitted the socks and drove away no problem."
Similar experience here too  and gives a signal to you just how close to traction loss you can be.
Moved car on cold morning from being parked so I could let it warm and not to run it right outside accommodation doorway, was sitting in drivers seat, chains on front wheel drive, letting it demist to drive safely, just a slow sensation I was moving and felt odd, realised as it started to gain a little pace what was happening and so stepped on brakes to stop it. Slope was steep enough that the rears (without chains but with handbrake applied) wouldn't hold it alone.
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| JohnF wrote: |
| So now I've got winters and chains sorted is there a reason for socks also? Would they be better than just winters tyres on their own or am I over thinking it. |
I'd say not. Winter tyres and chains should be all that you need. I don't see a need for winter tyres, plus socks, plus chains. Whatever socks can do (on top of winters), chains should do better.
I'd agree that it's easy to underestimate the challenge of wet slush, and 'spun' surfaces i.e. where other cars have spun their wheels so much that the surface has been compacted and polished almost to glass - it's often like this around a village centre and the lifts and on the access roads to apartments and chalets. If you're close to your destination the inertia against stopping and putting the chains on is high, but that's exactly where you may find you have to stop and then can't get going again. So best change before. Easy to say, of course ...
I also carry a cheap snowbrush (one of those extendable ones for clearing the windscreen and roof) and a small collapsible shovel. Overkill, of course, but useful on occasion. If I'm leaving the car out in a potential snowfall, I have a fabric/foil frost protector (summer sun screen) that goes on the outside of the screen which makes it easy to lift off an entire screenful of snow off in one go. And make sure this is covering the wipers and bonnet air intake, so they remain clear of snow. Oh, and for chain fitting, a carpet square to kneel on, and a head torch and old thin gloves.
A couple of tips re chains. Some that fit a range of sizes may need individual links to be adjusted to the specific tyre size on your vehicle, so obviously do this ahead of your journey. It's a lot easier to do this, and/or to do a trial fitting if you use your spare wheel (if you have one), as opposed to a wheel attached to the car. Then you can move the wheel around to see how it should be fitted. And when you replace the two chain sets in their bag, lay then out in a way that's going to make it easy to fit them in earnest, and separate them with a bit of plastic/cardboard, so they don't turn into chain spaghetti.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A few years ago we were in la plagne,,..local bus drove up and down the hill like it was on tarmac..it was deep snow and all it had were snow tyres...thats what got me into having snow tyres in the uk when the temp is below 5 degrees c... as thats when summer rubber goes hard...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DaveD wrote: |
| I bought a set of Spikes Spider for my new 18" wheels ...I better look at the video again as its a year since I bought them ... |
Some of the Spike Spiders are of the type where (unless the default setup is exactly right for your specific vehicle) you are likely to have to do some minor adjustments of the links with pliers to fit them to your specific wheel diameter. This is after you've adjusted the main bar to one of the three size ranges. The link adjustment is actually to the plastic connectors: it's easier than it sounds, but it's not something you want to be doing up a mountain in the dark and cold at the point you're fitting them in earnest.
Because of poor time management and not realising that the links needed to be tweaked, I didn't do a trial fitting before we left home, and ended-up doing it in the basement garage of our apartment block. It took me about 20 minutes to adjust the first chain set and somewhat less for the second, and this in a well-lit heated underground garage. Good thing I didn't need them en route. At least the upside of the Spiders is that they fit a much wider range of sizes than many cheaper conventional chains, so are more likely to be transferable to our next vehicle.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
local bus drove up and down the hill like it was on tarmac
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There's snow and snow. I've waited at a bus stop for a ski bus which took people to the main "front de neige". Waited for ages - eventually learnt from a driver coming up that it was stuck down the road, waiting for help with chains. Whatever people say, it is absolutely NOT the case that you never need chains on winter tyres and NOT the case that when the police are insisting on chains, you'll get away with pointing proudly to your winter tyres. One time I had to stop and put chains on was after losing all traction on a short hill in a spring snow shower on a warm road. Couple of inches of slush and my 4 excellent winter tyres just gave up the struggle. I was driving into the village 5km away. By the time I came back (minus chains) the road was almost completely dry.
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| Quote: |
local bus drove up and down the hill like it was on tarmac
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There's snow and snow. I've waited at a bus stop for a ski bus which took people to the main "front de neige". Waited for ages - eventually learnt from a driver coming up that it was stuck down the road, waiting for help with chains. Whatever people say, it is absolutely NOT the case that you never need chains on winter tyres and NOT the case that when the police are insisting on chains, you'll get away with pointing proudly to your winter tyres. One time I had to stop and put chains on was after losing all traction on a short hill in a spring snow shower on a warm road. Couple of inches of slush and my 4 excellent winter tyres just gave up the struggle. I was driving into the village 5km away. By the time I came back (minus chains) the road was almost completely dry.
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You know it makes sense.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| DaveD wrote: |
| I bought a set of Spikes Spider for my new 18" wheels ...I better look at the video again as its a year since I bought them ... |
Some of the Spike Spiders are of the type where (unless the default setup is exactly right for your specific vehicle) you are likely to have to do some minor adjustments of the links with pliers to fit them to your specific wheel diameter. This is after you've adjusted the main bar to one of the three size ranges. The link adjustment is actually to the plastic connectors: it's easier than it sounds, but it's not something you want to be doing up a mountain in the dark and cold at the point you're fitting them in earnest.
Because of poor time management and not realising that the links needed to be tweaked, I didn't do a trial fitting before we left home, and ended-up doing it in the basement garage of our apartment block. It took me about 20 minutes to adjust the first chain set and somewhat less for the second, and this in a well-lit heated underground garage. Good thing I didn't need them en route. At least the upside of the Spiders is that they fit a much wider range of sizes than many cheaper conventional chains, so are more likely to be transferable to our next vehicle. |
I did l when I first got them for last years aborted season and did a trial fit with the tyres off the car ...a good job I did too as . like you said , they doo need to be micro adjusted 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@mooney058, @LaForet, thanks for your feedback on me having 2 pairs of chains, I've been able to return one set for a refund (though postage was ten quid - I'd have got as much selling them on here I bet!)
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Poster: A snowHead
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@LaForet,
| Quote: |
I'd agree that it's easy to underestimate the challenge of wet slush, and 'spun' surfaces i.e. where other cars have spun their wheels so much that the surface has been compacted and polished almost to glass - it's often like this around a village centre and the lifts and on the access roads to apartments and chalets. If you're close to your destination the inertia against stopping and putting the chains on is high, but that's exactly where you may find you have to stop and then can't get going again. So best change before. Easy to say, of course ...
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Wise words!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My Konig k-Summits arrived this morning. I've got decent winters on the car anyway, so hopefully they'll not be needed, but if it's looking a bit questionable, I'll chuck them on at the first aire de chaînage and pootle up at 30 kmh
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I got some Konig CB12s. Had a go at fitting them the other day and all seemed ok - might be different when it’s freezing cold and chucking it down.
My winter tyres I’d never heard of. There was a bit of a language barrier at the tyre fitters and I ended up with some Sava tyres (never heard of them!). The fitter indicated they were mid range. Only time will tell!
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Sava is actually a pretty okay tyre. I believe the are made in Slovenia, and are owner by Goodyear. Usually it is a generation older than the Goodyear, with a little less advanced compound. Had them on one car some years ago, because they were the only in stock in my size. Not super premium, but did hold up Well in snow…. Would not mind buying them again if my fave tyre was out of stock. It is far better than any Dunlop i have tried (same owner).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@DanishRider, thanks. I did look at a comparison of winter tyres. They were rated pretty badly in most conditions apart from snow when they were rated as one of the best! Let’s hope they do the job. I have a 350m climb up to work every day - although lots of colleagues have said they’ve never needed to use their chains.
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| hammerite wrote: |
| @DanishRider, thanks. I did look at a comparison of winter tyres. They were rated pretty badly in most conditions apart from snow when they were rated as one of the best! Let’s hope they do the job. I have a 350m climb up to work every day - although lots of colleagues have said they’ve never needed to use their chains. |
I won’t remember them being “premium” on dry road, but they were quite effective at dealing with snow. The thing about tyres is, that the same model can be really good in one size, and completely useless in another size. I have had Continental TS860 on two different cars (and size), and they worked Well on one, but was crap in snow on the other.
For my current car, the Hankook Icept winter evo 3 seems to be the most balanced, but they also wear fast. I prefer a tyre that has a lot of grip on snow.
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| DanishRider wrote: |
| hammerite wrote: |
| @DanishRider, thanks. I did look at a comparison of winter tyres. They were rated pretty badly in most conditions apart from snow when they were rated as one of the best! Let’s hope they do the job. I have a 350m climb up to work every day - although lots of colleagues have said they’ve never needed to use their chains. |
I don’t remember them being “premium” on dry road, but they were quite effective at dealing with snow. The thing about tyres is, that the same model can be really good in one size, and completely useless in another size. I have had Continental TS860 on two different cars (and size), and they worked Well on one, but was crap in snow on the other.
For my current car, the Hankook Icept winter evo 3 seems to be the most balanced, but they also wear fast. I prefer a tyre that has a lot of grip on snow. |
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@DanishRider, useful to know. Thanks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| hammerite wrote: |
| @DanishRider, useful to know. Thanks. |
At your service Sir 
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| hammerite wrote: |
| @DanishRider, useful to know. Thanks. |
On another note: My childhood friend deals in tyres, and I believe he said that the Sava’s was quite good allround in the smaller sizes (16” and below, and not wider than 205)…
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Mine are 16” and 205!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| hammerite wrote: |
| Mine are 16” and 205! |
maybe your lucky then
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes they’re the Eskimo
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| hammerite wrote: |
| @DanishRider, thanks. I did look at a comparison of winter tyres. They were rated pretty badly in most conditions apart from snow when they were rated as one of the best! Let’s hope they do the job. I have a 350m climb up to work every day - although lots of colleagues have said they’ve never needed to use their chains. |
It's the nature of compromise that the best snow performance is diametrically opposed to the best high grip situation, with varying range of balance between the two.
Technically, to able to steer a car wheel when the driver moves the steering the rubber and carcass have to twist such that the next tread block arriving at the road surface has to land to the left or right in alignment of the block already in contact with the surface. As such it causes the wheel to travel in an arc on the road, and so changes the vehicle's direction. If the grip existing between the surface and rubber conact AND / OR the tread/carcass can't be moved to cause the misalignment, then the wheel's arc of direction and vehicle won't change. It can be seen that the combined rubber, structure etc has to be flexible enough to achieve this balance in cold and lowered surface friction circumstances to drive securely.
The same soft materials play out in a different way on high grip surface and load situations, dry tarmac and raised speeds among them. Here the soft materials initiate the turn with the same mechanical activity, but when the tire is loaded sufficiently the tread block landing in the driver's intended direction is exceeded by the blocks bending over (shear sideways loading) laterally sufficient to negate how far the tire direction change is applied. Again, the vehicle just starts to go straight because of that geometric corruption arising from too much grip this time, but with the same driver feel in that the vehicle won't turn derived from too soft a material specification this time.
Balancing the carcass stiffness against tread surface compound softness will bring different ultimate focus to which area holds the most important attributes for the user, regardless of cost.
Most people will, unintentionally, deal with reduction of grip in a high traction and dry scenario (cars are designed and developed to best do this for a broad skillset of drivers) better than a low grip one. It follows that for severe low traction conditions, the best choice and most valuable to you, is the "snow" performance.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ski3, thanks. Guess I’ll find out tomorrow morning on my way to work. It’s tipping it down at the moment with about 6” having fallen so far.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I understood the French legislation made snow tyres compulsory.
As for Canada. I was driving near Kananaskis village 2m drifts by the roadside and complete snowcover on the road. A young dude wanted past in a hurry in a huge standard issue 4WD Nissan and sped off ahead of me.
I passed him 2 bends later. He was off the road buried at right angles in the snowbank.
I guess he'd lost the back end and the 4WD had kicked-in.
5 miles up the road and here was exactly the same scenario. Another young dude ploughed into the snowbank.
This must be standard behaviour. Of course it is -15C and these guys are wearing Shorts and Tees.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I understood the French legislation made snow tyres compulsory
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No, that's not the case.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The Savas worked admirably this morning. A little bit of wheel spin to get out of the garage this morning (this can happen some morning when there’s no snow!). A little bit more wheel spin at the bottom of the climb after I had to stop behind all the locals pulling over at the cafe to get their breakfast . The rest of the way was relatively plain sailing thankfully!
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@DanishRider, I’m in Andorra. It’s law for any locally registered vehicles to have them from November to May. I’d have them even if I was in a foreign registered vehicle.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| hammerite wrote: |
| @DanishRider, I’m in Andorra. It’s law for any locally registered vehicles to have them from November to May. I’d have them even if I was in a foreign registered vehicle. |
It really should be the law anywhere with snow
Last week we had a bit of snow, and then 19 cars crashing on the same day on the motorway - All on summers !
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Plenty of folk round here with chains on today, all with winter tyres. Main road through the valley is fine but many of the side roads aren't cleared / gritted.
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FAQ
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