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Idiots without / who can't put on chains & think winter tyres will be ok

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Those Thule easy fits look just the ticket for an occasional punter like me... I have only ever had to put on chains in my driveway for prep before and my old set has rubber bits which have petrified. Quite spenny though... esp as have just put new winter tyres on too Crying or Very sad
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Layne wrote:
There is a lot of good threads and good advice on Snowheads but this one seems to be a complete mess with lots of traditionally savvy snowheads holding varied and in some cases opposing opinions. Odd.


????

Those who live in or spend many weeks per season living in areas that experience serious winters (e.g. the Alps, Canada) all seem to be in agreement (i.e. quality winter tyres and chains always in the boot during winter).

This is the sort of conditions where snow chains come into their own.

http://youtube.com/v/2k1ZIEYrbAE
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@DB, I was quite impressed that that driver managed to get down the hill without any major damage!
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I'm just back from two weeks in Austria. I'd booked a VW Golf to get from Munich to Lech then Serfaus but when I arrived in Germany it'd been snowing heavily all day in Austria. Asked for chains from the rental desk and they offered me chains only for €90 or an upgrade to a BMW X3 with the chains for €150. I took the car upgrade (for the first time ever) and was really glad that I did. On the road up to Zurs from Stuben there was several inches of fresh snow on the road and the four wheel drive felt totally secure, no loss of traction at all. Leaving Serfaus last Saturday I was woken at 3am by a Dutch family trying to get their car and minibus out of the apartment parking and up a short steep ramp on to the road. It took then several hours and several goes, while the X3 had absolutely no problems at all. Glad I had the chains coming over the Fern pass last Saturday but while a few 2WD cars were stopped and putting chains on the X3 had plenty grip. My first experience of driving an AWD vehicle in snow and I was impressed with the difference.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB wrote:
Those who live in or spend many weeks per season living in areas that experience serious winters (e.g. the Alps, Canada) all seem to be in agreement (i.e. quality winter tyres and chains always in the boot during winter).


That seemed to be the consensus.

Failing winter tires - a set of chains that you know how to fit.
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Layne wrote:
There is a lot of good threads and good advice on Snowheads but this one seems to be a complete mess with lots of traditionally savvy snowheads holding varied and in some cases opposing opinions. Odd.
LOL. If you really want some fun, go on to a Range Rover forum and try asking whether you should have chains on the front or rear wheels! You will end up with at least five different answers. BTW, no I haven’t personally asked!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The real answer is both winter tyres a carrying chains just in case regardless of how many wheel drive you have, as others have mentioned going down hill can be more of a problem than getting up. I know personally of a number of problems with 4wd vehicles with winter tyres coming to grief going down to the valley from my apartment. Of course just getting to resort is normally no problem but last year at least twice it was impossible for 2wd cars even with normal winter tyres to get to the village without chains or spikes.
Got stuck coming home from work tonight by a German van in front, yes he had winter tyres but was attempting to get up a 17% gradient on freezing / wet snow. Before we hit the steep bit I knew he would never get up so parked the car and walked round the corner to see what was going on. He was stopped in the single track road with hazards on getting chains out of the back. I walked up and they had one chain on but the other was tangled and they couldn't work out what was going on, took the pee for a little while then took the chains off them and untangled them before the locals who were trying to get down the hill lynched them. One of the locals was a first responder trying to get to a call and was less than impressed. Once the road was cleared I went up with no wheel spin and no problems in my 2wd car, spiked tyres are cool. Chains are still in the boot for deep heavy wet snow, used them once last season so far not this season.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Chris_n, If the 4x4 has Hill descent control then it must be really bad for them to come to grief. It’s a good enough reason alone to buy a LR.
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@foxtrotzulu, as long as it has the correct tyres!
So many people think they are prepared because they have 4x4. If the 4 patches of rubber aren't gripping then you have no control regardless of the electronics in your vehicle.
I have been in a position where I have got out of the car with the handbrake on and the engine running to fit snow chains, when I opened the tailgate the car started moving with the rear wheels just skidding, this was on a gradient less than 10%. I'm pretty sure if I was in the same position in the same conditions at 20% I would not be able to stop the vehicle.
Don't play with people's lives!
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
@Chris_n, If the 4x4 has Hill descent control then it must be really bad for them to come to grief. It’s a good enough reason alone to buy a LR.

My landcruiser has hill descent mode. It take huge cojones to take your feet off the pedals just on a muddy lane... I haven't dared do it on a snowy/icy track
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Chris_n wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, as long as it has the correct tyres!
So many people think they are prepared because they have 4x4. If the 4 patches of rubber aren't gripping then you have no control regardless of the electronics in your vehicle.
I have been in a position where I have got out of the car with the handbrake on and the engine running to fit snow chains, when I opened the tailgate the car started moving with the rear wheels just skidding, this was on a gradient less than 10%. I'm pretty sure if I was in the same position in the same conditions at 20% I would not be able to stop the vehicle.
Don't play with people's lives!
don’t worry, I’m a huge believer in having the right tyres. Having said that, HDC will still make a huge difference even with rubbish tyres when compared with a car without HDC.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@jamescollings, I use HDC quite regularly and find it not too daunting. Works a treat.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
foxtrotzulu wrote:
Chris_n wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, as long as it has the correct tyres!
So many people think they are prepared because they have 4x4. If the 4 patches of rubber aren't gripping then you have no control regardless of the electronics in your vehicle.
I have been in a position where I have got out of the car with the handbrake on and the engine running to fit snow chains, when I opened the tailgate the car started moving with the rear wheels just skidding, this was on a gradient less than 10%. I'm pretty sure if I was in the same position in the same conditions at 20% I would not be able to stop the vehicle.
Don't play with people's lives!
don’t worry, I’m a huge believer in having the right tyres. Having said that, HDC will still make a huge difference even with rubbish tyres when compared with a car without HDC.


Descending on ice it won't.

You are not the first or last to believe this.

Big SUV's with summer tyres in the alps during the winter are accidents waiting to happen irrespective of what fancy electronics they have. Two wheel drive with winter tyres is far better than 4WD without winter tyres.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
A lot of the accidents in the following link are caused by people driving at a fair Speed 50 km/h (30mph) plus and then changing lanes / overtaking. If you are travelling at speed and there are tracks in the snow with a ridge either side then IMHO it's best to stay in the track.


http://youtube.com/v/nWQBdGLM2mw


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 3-01-18 9:35; edited 1 time in total
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
We live at 800m near La Clusaz and Le Grand Bornand. We've had front wheel drive and 4x4s stuck on our drive in the past. We used to run a LR Freelander 2 with winter tyres and all the electronic aids, very comfy and secure. Deep snow never stopped it. Then, 3 winters ago, it slid into the mountain side on an icy slushy road. Very scary as the other side was a cliff edge.
So the last 18 months we have had a Panda 4x4 on winters with a set of cheap chains in the back that have never been used. It is absolutely brilliant. As already mentioned, it's lightness is far more reassuring going downhill but there's one more really useful attribute. It is skinny. So you can squeeze past the "idiots putting on snow chains" and are less likely to be sideswiped by terror stricken heavy car drivers sliding down the road towards you.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
DB wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
Chris_n wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, as long as it has the correct tyres!
So many people think they are prepared because they have 4x4. If the 4 patches of rubber aren't gripping then you have no control regardless of the electronics in your vehicle.
I have been in a position where I have got out of the car with the handbrake on and the engine running to fit snow chains, when I opened the tailgate the car started moving with the rear wheels just skidding, this was on a gradient less than 10%. I'm pretty sure if I was in the same position in the same conditions at 20% I would not be able to stop the vehicle.
Don't play with people's lives!
don’t worry, I’m a huge believer in having the right tyres. Having said that, HDC will still make a huge difference even with rubbish tyres when compared with a car without HDC.


Descending on ice it won't.

You are not the first or last to believe this.

Big SUV's with summer tyres in the alps during the winter are accidents waiting to happen irrespective of what fancy electronics they have. Two wheel drive with winter tyres is far better than 4WD without winter tyres.


Agree with this. Best car we had for this weather was our old Mitsubishi Pajero Evo with big old knobbly tyres. No fancy electronics just proper 4WD with the ability to lock the diff when it got really hairy. We even managed to tow a Mercedes Sprinter van up an icy and snowy hill in Les Carroz after they go stuck delivering our UK furniture. Kids forced the sale of that little beauty. The Land Cruiser took it all in its stride, the Mercedes R Class not so much! Slid around a corner in front of the ski bus...with UK plates...not good! Now in an X5 with winter tyres. Made it into resort fine on a snowy road but aimed to get there by early afternoon. Put on the chains to leave last Thursday, as it was the ice underneath and compacted snow that we were worried about.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Chris_n wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, as long as it has the correct tyres!
So many people think they are prepared because they have 4x4. If the 4 patches of rubber aren't gripping then you have no control regardless of the electronics in your vehicle.
I have been in a position where I have got out of the car with the handbrake on and the engine running to fit snow chains, when I opened the tailgate the car started moving with the rear wheels just skidding, this was on a gradient less than 10%. I'm pretty sure if I was in the same position in the same conditions at 20% I would not be able to stop the vehicle.
Don't play with people's lives!


What are the rules on spiked tyres here? Are they ok on normal roads/autobahns too?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
clarky999 wrote:
What are the rules on spiked tyres here? Are they ok on normal roads/autobahns too?


Busy at the moment will try t translate it later, aber du verstehst Deutsch oder?
http://www.winterreifen-pflicht.at/spikes.html
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Quote:

Big SUV's with summer tyres in the alps during the winter are accidents waiting to happen irrespective of what fancy electronics they have.


When we had the snow in UK before Xmas, we drove up to local hills for a few runs. This was in a Disco with winter tyres. The only cars getting up there were 4*4s.

Coming down scared the proverbial out of me Shocked The road up had been smoothed to compressed snow with all the gripping qualities of glass. Even with the Hill Descent on, at one point we just slid and I had no option but to stick it off the edge slightly to find some snow to grip and brake on.

So fully agree with the point that a 4*4 does not give you immunity
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DB wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
What are the rules on spiked tyres here? Are they ok on normal roads/autobahns too?


Busy at the moment will try t translate it later, aber du verstehst Deutsch oder?
http://www.winterreifen-pflicht.at/spikes.html


jo des passt eh, danke wink
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Aaah, so that's what this sticker means?



I always thought that was the Nokian tyres logo and people were just proud of their tyres Embarassed Laughing
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Must remember to fit the studded tyres to my 1.8 tonne trailer as well as my car then.......... Shocked
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
clarky999 wrote:
Aaah, so that's what this sticker means?



I always thought that was the Nokian tyres logo and people were just proud of their tyres Embarassed Laughing


I thought it was a swimming ring wink
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Please don't anyone ask Scarpa what he thinks it is Shocked
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Kooky wrote:
Please don't anyone ask Scarpa what he thinks it is Shocked


Something to wear on his helmet? Toofy Grin
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@DB, that is 47 examples of people driving too fast in conditions which you should not be driving at all. Having snow tyres and driving the same way in those conditions, will just mean that some other idiot will drive into you.

The best way to be safe is to drive really slowly in such conditions, or not at all. I would find a lay by, and have a sleep and wait for the weather conditions to improve. There can be no real reason to drive in such conditions from a ski resort. If it it snowy and icy just wait for the next day, and if the weather is still bad go have a swim and sit in the sauna then visit the cinema. The next day there will be lots of fresh snow, and clear skies so you can ski.

Ski don't drive, its safer!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@DB, I completely agree with the points about winter tyres and 4x4 not giving immunity etc. However, I don’t understand your point about HDC not helping. In order of effectiveness I would argue it goes... summer tyres, summer with HDC, winter tyres, winter with HDC. HDC will help on ice, just not as much as as winter tyres.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
How many of those 47 examples were actually driving on winter tyres?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@foxtrotzulu, HDC will help to a point, but as I discovered, when there is no grip - there is no grip! Absolutely nothing will stop you just sliding.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
With the correct tyres you can get some phenonomal grip on ice, but I am not sure how they will perform on ice free roads.
https://i2.wp.com/ridermagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Eisspeedway_Journal_1.jpg
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Poster: A snowHead
DB wrote:
A lot of the accidents in the following link are caused by people driving at a fair Speed 50 km/h (30mph) plus and then changing lanes / overtaking. If you are travelling at speed and there are tracks in the snow with a ridge either side then IMHO it's best to stay in the track.


http://youtube.com/v/nWQBdGLM2mw


Agreed on the speed.

Watched 3 minutes of that and speeds in excess of what is safe, and people not anticipating incidents were to blame for much of that.

Winter tyres might give those numpties license to speed even more.................
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
What strikes me are the number of roll-overs at low speed from hitting snow banks and guard rails, especially SUVs and vans. I am generally amazed by number of people who do not buckle up in the back of taxis and transfer vans.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I would take my audi A4 quattro with winter tyres into the mountains any day over a discovery or similar not top heavy and in the event of a slide is way more controllable. I left La Rosiere on Saturday early before the snowploughs had been out managed to get it out of the underground car park even though the ramp must have had over a foot of snow on it was fine getting out of the village and down the mountain even though there was several inches of snow all the way down the valley. Saw several cars stopped in stupid places in the dark trying to put chains on.
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@francium., agree - we recently replaced our car and opted for a AWD family estate over a top heavy German SUV.
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@Ozboy, @francium., agree that Disco can have issues in snow, but for us it is the general load lugging ability, towing ability which sold it
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I have a Mitsubishi Outlander on winter tyres, which is very good in the snow, being a 4x4 and electric means the wheels turn at a very low torque. However, I couldn't get up my drive last weekend after all the heavy rain, as it has frozen to sheet ice. So even a good 4x4 on winter tyres needs chains sometimes, as they can't cope with sheet ice.
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@doddsie, it is hybrid or plugin electric... if the latter are you driving it to the Alps, what is the range and how are charging facilities? Does extreme cold affect battery performance?
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Bigtipper wrote:
@DB, that is 47 examples of people driving too fast in conditions which you should not be driving at all. Having snow tyres and driving the same way in those conditions, will just mean that some other idiot will drive into you.

The best way to be safe is to drive really slowly in such conditions, or not at all. I would find a lay by, and have a sleep and wait for the weather conditions to improve. There can be no real reason to drive in such conditions from a ski resort. If it it snowy and icy just wait for the next day, and if the weather is still bad go have a swim and sit in the sauna then visit the cinema. The next day there will be lots of fresh snow, and clear skies so you can ski.

Ski don't drive, its safer!


Definitely 47 examples of people driving like idiots (and looks very much like without winter tyres), I strongly disagree that you shouldn't drive in such conditions. I would - and have - very comfortably driven in worse in my 4x4 Duster with winter tyres, including with 10-20cms settled on the motorway at 4am. But then here everyone has winter tyres, so while there are still plenty of idiots about you rarely get the large speed differentials that push people to overtake too fast etc.
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@clarky999, your honour, I was driving at 50 mph in constant snow and the road was covered in compacted snow, ice, and slush. However, I had winter tyres on so it was not my fault that some other idiot who wasn't driving in winter tyres slid across my side of the white line (which I could not see).

Verdict: Snow tyres are not admissible as evidence in the court of public opinion. Therefore, you are guilty if you drive in those conditions regardless of whose fault it was.
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@Bigtipper, huh Puzzled

In the court of law if you cause an accident by driving without winter tyres in winter conditions you'll be in big trouble. So everyone has winter tyres (here, anyway; it boggles my mind that other alpine countries don't - yet - mandate them).

There are plenty of places in the world where driving conditions are like that 5+ days a week for 2-3 months a year every year (Japan is the most obvious example I've been to). Just stopping driving altogether isn't an option, particularly when you're not on holiday and have to go work etc.

Hence appropriate equipment and training.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 3-01-18 15:11; edited 1 time in total
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