 Poster: A snowHead
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Snow conditions today (in Les Arcs) were amazing, with very light powder snow falling since the early hours. Mostly I skied chopped up powder up to knee depth below the treeline, either on or to the side of the piste. I used a couple of different pairs of skis, with a different binding setup, which provided a dramatically different experience. First was a pair of Head Rev 90 with the bindings setup (by Jon at The Piste Office) to a zero delta angle (i.e. zero difference in height between the toe binding and the heel binding). The second pair of skis were Whitedot Carbonlite Preachers, mounted with Vist 311 bindings with no delta adjustment. It was quite an interesting experiment swapping between the two pairs of skis. On the Heads I felt really well balanced, the skiing was pretty effortless and I could do more or less what I wanted, airborne transitions, changing the turn shape, good fore/aft control, etc. On the Whitedots I felt like a beginner, back on my heels, horrible transitions, upper body all over the place, just a deeply unpleasant skiing experience all round. I've previously had my binding setup assessed by Andi and Colin at Solutions4Feet and I have a clear preference for a zero delta, which I'm certain explains why I was so unhappy on the Whitedots as the Vist 311 binding can be as much as 6mm heel high. Interesting what difference just a few millimetres makes in the overall skiing experience.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@rob@rar, I'm similar to you: too much delta and I'm (even more) all over the place. Pin bindings insist on significant deltas; I used 10mm of toe shims on the radicals to get back to a sensible feeling. Vipecs and Salomon MTN are far more reasonable at 5mm or so, which I can cope with fine - especially since my boots (Lange XT Freetour) are pretty upright. I've also been using Andi and Colin for balance/boots for the past 10 years and they advised me the same as you (zero delta is optimal).
I think it has less effect in deep fresh powder though since the ski's angle of attack adjusts itself according to your body position.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@spyderjon, are you being cheeky?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@under a new name, what are you doing posting here when you should be out practising your one legged skiing 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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How very interesting, as I am generally skeptical that delta effects (e, not a) most skiers, basically as it seems that most wouldn’t notice if their binding broke off.
Whereas I am reasonably confident that you would.
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Sorry, that sounds terrible. I forgot my specs. Of course you would but my suspicion in that your sensitivity is at least an orderof magnitude beyond most
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I definitely feel the difference when I swap between skis set up with different delta angles.
I actually feel a bit more natural with a bit of heel lift though. My theory is that it is physiology - relatively muscly thighs and backside, relatively puny upper body, tipping me forward a bit moves my CoG a little more central when in a flexed position.
That said, a couple of hours on flat mounted skis and I've adjusted fully.
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@under a new name, I'd agree that many don't notice delta changes but there's a reasonable proportion for which it's significant, myself included.
If you're one of those people then there's still a reasonable chance that your skiing might not be hampered depending upon the equipment combination selected but if they're unaware of the issue then that'll be more by luck than judgement.
If that equipement choice all goes against you (ie a steep zeppa within the boot &/or a lot of forward lean in the boot &/or a heel lift in the boot &/or a binding with a high delta angle &/or a short BSL) then all of a sudden it becomes a problem.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| How very interesting, as I am generally skeptical that delta effects ... |
I understand that, not least because I was also skeptical before I had a couple of alignment sessions at S4F and started to adjust my setup. When I look back at skis which I just didn't get on with I think the real problem was not the ski itself but the binding setup. These days the difference I can feel is like night and day. A big factor in my ski choice now is how easy it is to get the delta angle to no more than a couple of mm from where I want it to be (typically by shimming the toe binding).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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@skimottaret, man, you have the memory of an elephant! As I said, I was pretty skeptical at the outset, but definitely need things to be right for me now. Today really illustrated that, although I should have probably stuck with the skis with flat bindings as (a) they were more fun and (b) the other skis really screwed my back 
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 18-12-17 22:15; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rob@rar, just joshing but I/we can't overemphasise the importance of general equipment setup and specifically delta angle to improve everyones skiing.
Stay on the good skis in the good pow and all will be sorted back wise !!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Mildly amused by this. Shades of @under a new name's conversion to something other than a FIS legal slalom ski.
I still don't understand quite why I am so sensitive to boot forward lean/binding delta but it makes an enormous difference to the way I balance. Better at some points just to go with what works rather than try and figure the issue out.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @rob@rar, just joshing but I/we can't overemphasise the importance of general equipment setup and specifically delta angle to improve everyones skiing. |
Yup (although bearing in mind what we do, I wouldn't discount the importance of good ski coaching to helping skiers have more fun...)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| How very interesting, as I am generally skeptical that delta effects (e, not a) most skiers,. |
Err no. The effect of the delta is that it affects the way you ski...
As to whether it affects my skiing is entirely moot, and I don't have a scooby.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@skimottaret, was chatting about this with Charley last week and his view was that most people should aim for a delta of 2mm, unless balancing indicates something different.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Arctic Roll, sorry, my crap humour...
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I've been meaning to make some shims to have a play with my delta angle, could anyone give me an idea of what I should be aiming at for a starting point, knees vertically over toes with light pressure on shins?
What effects on your skiing would you expect to see with a forward/backward delta? Is it better to change the boots forward lean?
I've got Beast 14's and Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD120 boots.
It's quite probable my skiing isn't of a high enough standard for any of this to matter yet but would like to know what effects it might be having.
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@Daishan, it's a personal preference, so it's difficult to say what your starting point should be. I had my alignment and balance preferences assessed at Solutions4Feet and that indicated I had a preference for zero delta (no difference in height between the toe binding and the heel binding). I could tolerate the heel being marginally higher (a millimetre or two), but had no tolerance at all for the toe being higher. But other people might well have a different preference, and given that you don't want to be constantly screwing and unscrewing your bindings from your skis it's difficult to experiment with different shim thicknesses (unless you have something like QuiverKiller screws and a selection of different screw lengths to play around with).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@under a new name, clearly mine too!
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@rob@rar, thanks for the reply, I'm mostly interested in if I can blame my gear for contributing to any of my bad habits (I know it's likely to be +95% bad technique)
Any suggestions on what I should be looking for if I test a bunch of different angles, preferably things that I'd be able to notice skiing in a fridge?
My Nordica Burners and Preachers both have QuiverKillers and I can make my own shims at work easy enough, just need some spare time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I liked most of the skis that I tried at the Oktobertest apart from the preachers, horrible things, possibly come into their own in powder but very unwieldy in a fridge.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@tangowaggon, Preachers <3 yeah wasn't planning on trying to play with delta angles on those in a fridge
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@Daishan, the first question is why bother? If you struggle to get out of the backseat and lessons are not helping then altering forward lean or delta is one possible solution.
I don't have the link to hand right now but google "Ron le Master squat test."
Squatting in your boots and bindings will give you a very rough and ready idea of whether you have too much or too little forward lean in your setup. Armpits too far in front of your knees when in a tucked position indicates too much forward lean and vice versa. You can get a rough idea of changes needed by standing in your boots and putting beermats or something under the toe or heel of your boots.
That will give you a rough idea but it is massively bucket. It is no substitute for actually seeing someone who knows what they are doing. It is also worth remembering that what works on the flat may not be what works on the hill. Best of luck.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Daishan wrote: |
| I've been meaning to make some shims to have a play with my delta angle, could anyone give me an idea of what I should be aiming at for a starting point,. |
I bought a Skia trainer 2nd hand off ebay and used that to work out my optimum delta. Out the box the Skia Trainer simulates 0 deg of delta, you can mimic higher ramp angles by taping a stack of business cards to the heel of your boot. 1mm of business cards is 1mm of delta.
The nice thing about doing it this way is that you get real feedback, you can balance on the trainer more easily once you have the delta set up correctly.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
@skimottaret, was chatting about this with Charley last week and his view was that most people should aim for a delta of 2mm, unless balancing indicates something different.
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Don't most alpine boots have more than 2mm of ramp built in - meaning that most people should have bindings mounted toe high? May be I am wrong about that?
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Poster: A snowHead
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just thinking about my boots that appear to have thicker heel than forefoot AND have a boot board with some heel lift
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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With the boots it depends on BSL as well, so you have to shim to a particular boot/binding/personal preference combo.
It's voodoo magic as the man used to say.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
With the boots it depends on BSL as well, so you have to shim to a particular boot/binding/personal preference combo.
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Indeed. It depends on half a dozen different things. 10mm delta is perfect if I have my boots set to 10 deg forward lean. If I set them to 14 then I need much less and at 18 deg I need a gas pedal. It really varies.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jedster wrote: |
| just thinking about my boots that appear to have thicker heel than forefoot AND have a boot board with some heel lift |
I thought the same about mine but the "heel" on the boot board drops into a hollow - the boot itself doesn't have a flat base internally. It all looks very interesting when you take out the customised footbeds and other layers, stack them up and view sideways on.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@jedster, Delta is the "external" angle from the boot sole to the base of the skis and usually talked about in mm of heel lift not angle. It doesn't account for internal ramp angle that may be built into the base board aka Zeppa nor added through insoles or heel lifts.
The total typical internal ramp angle is around 2.5% and helps us get onto the balls of the feet. Your running shoes will have a ramp angle.
Once our legs are clamped into the boots the delta angle is set through the binding to boot interface and can be adjusted with toe or heel shims.. Most alpine bindings are heel high..
@Mosha Marc, makes a good point in that someone with say 160mm long boots will have double the ramp angle of someone with 320mm boot sole length... so you need to check your preference on an individual basis.
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I've always thought that I'd just the able to adjust, and on most DIN Alpine bindings this seems to be the case.
However, a move to more touring biased set up has made me wonder, prompted by spending much on last season on Rad2 pin bindings, in Scarpa SL boots. While first impressions were good as the season went on I wasn't skiing as well as usual for no reason I could put my finger on.
Come April I swapped the soles back to DIN on the SLs and jumped on my cheat GS skis for an exam and suddenly all was right with the world. The difference was marked.
Cue lots of measuring and sole swapping* to try and get some data points between different skis and bindings. I reckon there is a +6.5mm difference in height between heal and toe comparing Rad2s and the rail system bindings on my Rossignols, which in turn were 1.3mm (so the Rad2s measured at almost 8mm)
So I've 3D printed off some toe shims for the Rad2s to equalise it back to about 2mm. I'll let you know how I get on.
*SLs have swappable soles so I could get a representative data point for both pin and din bindings.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lou Dawson has a helpful chart showing the toe and heel height differential between different pin bindings (link below). Pin height difference for a Rad 2 is 15mm. The exact delta, though, will change depending on how the inserts are positioned on the boot and how much rocker the sole has. Absent a 3d printer the best option are the B and D shims. Given the size of the differential in some bindings (17mm for a vertical ST) it isn't a surprise it feels different.
https://www.wildsnow.com/10733/get-up-rise-up-stand-up-for-your-ramp/
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FAQ
(it's all too tempting to take this off-topic at this point 