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Salomon S/LAB Shift binding

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Ozboy wrote:
......What is the impact of having a greater delta eg. 8mm vs 2mm?

It depends upon the individual - some people are fine with a lot of delta and for others it's a major issue. Those effected by excessive delta are pushed too far forward so end up having to be a bit backseat to re-balance - and when you're not skeletally stacked and your big muscles are holding you up then they'll burn out (lactic acid build up etc) in a few runs. And we're talking about good skiers here with otherwise good technique/ankle flex etc.

What complicates things is that a skier might be fine in their bindings but then do a boot change and then suffer and that's becasue the footboard (zeppa) angle within the boot and the forward lean of the boot cuff may or may not add to the issue. In some cases those features of the boot can be altered by more often that's not possible.
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@spyderjon, +1 on the boot variations. I notice the difference on some boot \ sole and binding combo's more than others.

Ozboy, It's not that the set up becomes un-skiable, rather for me its never quite feeling "centered and balanced". Which makes things harder and more effort when skiing hard.

Edit - this in general with pin bindings, I've yet to ski my Shifts.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 23-01-20 14:12; edited 1 time in total
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I haven't noticed anything with mine to be honest Puzzled
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@spyderjon, Thansk. Good to know as not something I have ever considered.
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How do the Shifts play in terms of hole clash with other bindings - particularly Warden MNC?

Planning on getting a pair, wondering whether they’ll go happily(ish) on my current skis or if I need to think about sell them and starting from scratch...
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Inboard wrote:
How do the Shifts play in terms of hole clash with other bindings - particularly Warden MNC?

Planning on getting a pair, wondering whether they’ll go happily(ish) on my current skis or if I need to think about sell them and starting from scratch...

Assuming the same boot sole length then the Shift toe will share two of the Warden toe holes and the Shift heels will work around the Warden heel locations.
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@spyderjon, that’s great, thanks - great to know. Guess I’ll be in touch next month to order them, then...
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spyderjon wrote:
SHIFT UPDATE FOR 20/21:

There will also be a lower din version called the Shift MNC 10 (4-10 din) which will only be in all black colour and its list price will be £400. Apart from the lower din range this binding is identical to the 13 version with the same brakes/crampons etc.


Will the MNC 10 be made of different materials?

Interesting on the price point that it will retail at £400 and the MNC 13 will get a price bump to £450. I would have thought they would try to bring it in at £300 or less.
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I went out on my Atomic Shifts on DPS Lotus 138’s today for the first time as there was a decent snow fall in Saas-Fee yesterday. As expected they felt rock solid. I’m using Tecnica Zero G Pro boots and I can’t say I’ve noticed any difference in the delta between the Shifts, Radical ST 2.0 and ATK Crests Very Happy
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@PowderAdict, same boots as me and I hadn't noticed anything funny either
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PowderAdict wrote:
I went out on my Atomic Shifts on DPS Lotus 138’s today for the first time as there was a decent snow fall in Saas-Fee yesterday. As expected they felt rock solid. I’m using Tecnica Zero G Pro boots and I can’t say I’ve noticed any difference in the delta between the Shifts, Radical ST 2.0 and ATK Crests Very Happy

@PowderAdict, That's 'cause your stuff is colour matched which everyone knows will cure all ails Toofy Grin


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 30-01-20 20:26; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
spyderjon wrote:
.......Apart from the lower din range this binding is identical to the 13 version.......


extremerob wrote:
......Will the MNC 10 be made of different materials?.....

No. The clue was in the word "identical" rolling eyes wink
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spyderjon wrote:
PowderAdict wrote:
I went out on my Atomic Shifts on DPS Lotus 138’s today for the first time as there was a decent snow fall in Saas-Fee yesterday. As expected they felt rock solid. I’m using Tecnica Zero G Pro boots and I can’t say I’ve noticed any difference in the delta between the Shifts, Radical ST 2.0 and ATK Crests Very Happy

@PowderAdict, That's 'cause your stuff is colour matched which everyone knows will cure all ails Toofy Grin

I put it down to the expert who mounted them wink
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Anyone know if you can easily use Dynafit Guide leashes and Crampons with Shifts? I forgot I had these at home and my skis are in France so cant check and im too lazy to use search function Wink
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@skimottaret, pretty sure the shift needs unique crampons so dynafit ones won't work , not sure re leashes
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@skimottaret, dyna crampons won’t work with the shift as they won’t clear the afd.
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Hi @spyderjon, I’m thinking of trying the Shifts in place of Dynafit Rad 2.0. Most of my skis are QK’ed for Rad 2.0s. Do the holes magically match or would it be a clash-fest? I’m expecting a clash-fest answer...
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Grinning wrote:
Hi @spyderjon, I’m thinking of trying the Shifts in place of Dynafit Rad 2.0. Most of my skis are QK’ed for Rad 2.0s. Do the holes magically match or would it be a clash-fest? I’m expecting a clash-fest answer...

Grinning, same boot sole length for the Shifts as the Rad 2's were mounted for? What benefit(s) do you expect by using the Shifts v the Rad 2's?
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Yes, same sole length. Benefit? Looking for Alpine flex and solidity, not a pin wobble and relying on rear pins flexing in and out of heel
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The Rad 2 has a floating heel so the pins don't flex in'n'out of the heel. And there's more longitudinal elasticity in the Rad 2 heel than a Shift heel. Don't know what you mean by "alpine flex" but there's nigh on matching toe & heel elasticity between the two bindings. By "pin wobble" do you mean you're getting movement in the boot/binding interface at the toe? What make/model of boot are you using? How tall/heavy are you and what's your din setting?
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I understood in the Rad2 Heel that when the ski flexes into a turn, the pins go into the heel and when they’re unweighted, the pins flex out of the heel, despite longitudinal elasticity.
Pin wobble - yes, in both the toes and heels: there is torsional relative movement between the ski and boot along the longitudinal axis of the ski. In an Alpine binding (which is what the Shift morphs into as i understand) there is the more solid toe and heel restraint - as in “more solid“ than the 4-pin point of contact that pin bindings provide.
I’m in SLab MTN, 5’10” 90kg set at Din 10
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@Dabber, @offpisteskiing, Thanks guys, thought that may be the case but they look quite similar in photos. Why would would want to have a standardised crampon design Wink
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@Grinning, on a Rad 2 the boot/binding gap is 0.2mm which is set on an unweighted ski. As soon as you click-in and weight the ski the 0.2mm gap is taken up. When the ski flexes the heel then floats rearward like the forward pressure float on an alpine binding. If the ski suddenly unweights and the ski grows in length then yes, the pins will retract a tad but's is no more than 2mm at an absolute max (and still leaving approx 7mm of pin length in the boot) but you can't feel that movement at all, especially as the ski is unweighted. Torsional movement between the two bindings wouldn't be any different as any actual benefit gained from the alpine style toe/hell binding is lost due to 'squidge' of the soft MTN boot sole. If the Shifts were being skied in a high flex piste performance alpine soled boot then yes, you'd get slightly improved power transmission but that'd really be down to the boot.

I'll check the jigs tomorrow to see how the Shifts align with the Rad 2's and get back to you but any performance gain would be slight and limited to hard snow so you'd have to balance that against the Shift being 160g heavier on the up and with only one climbing height.
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spyderjon wrote:
@Grinning, on a Rad 2 the boot/binding gap is 0.2mm which is set on an unweighted ski. As soon as you click-in and weight the ski the 0.2mm gap is taken up.


I had a shop in the alps try and set mine at the larger gap for the older style dynafits. I suggested they were wrong but they insisted the wide spacer was the one to use. I set them myself...
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@spyderjon, i had never thought about the squidgy MTN sole being a factor but of course it is.
V. interested to hear what you have to say about hole alignment!
Shifts just look more solid, purely psychology/marketing? - I’m a sucker for both.

@AndAnotherThing.., yep - have both the old ones set to the large spacer and the Rad2s set to a gnats back bottom spacing.

Any Dynafit Rad2 users out there who have moved to or tried the Shifts notice an appreciable difference in solidity in the boot/binding interface particularly when skiing on chalky/hard-pack?
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Quote:

Any Dynafit Rad2 users out there who have moved to or tried the Shifts notice an appreciable difference in solidity in the boot/binding interface particularly when skiing on chalky/hard-pack?


Incomparable IMO, Shift is in a different class, we no longer mount Dynafit/Pin Tech to any ski above 95mm waist. Shift is a real game changer, of the like we haven't seen in the ski business since the Pocket Rocket.
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@Grinning, pic showing the Rad 2 (black dots) mounting pattern alongside that for a Shift (red dots) for the same bsl and both mounted on the line.



As can be seen, the toe locations are great as are the front heel locations.

The rearmost heel locations are a bit close being only 9mm centre to centre - but both bindings have 36mm centres so the Shift heel can mounted 9mm forward using the same rearmost locations. The Shift binding binding has 30mm of adjustment in the heel and the jig, when set to the sole length will put boot 3mm back from the centre of its adjustment meaning that once mounted the heel can be moved 18mm forward or 12mm back. Moving the heel base 9mm forward to use the Rad 2 holes means that the upper heel will just have enough adjustment left (ie 3mm) for the forward pressure to be set correctly. This all assumes that the original Rad mount was done accurately so some careful measuring would need doing first to confirm.
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Seeing as you're chatting about this, something I've been thinking about is what light touring bindings are the best to swap with Salomon Shift bindings, in terms of hole locations?
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conor90 wrote:
Seeing as you're chatting about this, something I've been thinking about is what light touring bindings are the best to swap with Salomon Shift bindings, in terms of hole locations?

@conor90, I often do Quiver Killer dual mount the Shifts with a lightweight binding. My recommendations are the Salomon MTN (299g), the Dynafit Superlite 2.0/175 (175g) or the Marker Alpinist 9/12 (245g). Weights are without the optional brakes. Assuming the same bsl as the Shifts and that they're mounted on the line then these are the hole locations:

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Any tips to get this screw out of the washer that’s used to secure the toe piece of the Shift? There are 2 little notches that secure the screw stopping it from coming out Puzzled

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Turn upside down over a hole in a hard block of wood a little larger than the black screw and thump the bottom of the black screw with a hammer - that should flatten the anti rattle/turn indents in the washer (assuming that you didn't want to use the screw again!). If you want to re-use the black screw, then first partially screw it into a hard block of wood (having drilled a pilot hole first), then follow the previous hammer method!

Sypderjon may be along in a bit with a better method however!
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Yep, that's the way to do it - and it only takes a light tap or two so you won't damage the end of the factory screw. I put the stud over the open jaws of a pair of mole grips/pliers and then give it a firm tap.

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And if it doesn't come out, then you are simply not using a big enough hammer (fine engineering solution) ... Very Happy
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@oui4ski, @spyderjon, thanks. Worked a treat!
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My Shift brakes rarely deploy properly and seem to have got worse recently. Any snow at all and they just catch on the side of the ski, bit worrying in powder if one comes off.

Is it just a case of bending them out a bit further? Is this something I can do myself and is there a technique to it beyond, grabbing and bending?

They're 100mm brakes on a 102mm ski.

Thanks
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@Meltus, Two, possible actions, so do either or both. Firstly bend the brakes a mm or so each side, but this shouldn’t be needed, as the brakes are wider than normal so shouldn’t need bending. Are you sure have 100mm brakes? The standard bending technique is use a vice and a piece of pipe that just fits over the brake arm, then gently apply brute force.

Secondly take a look at the plastic on the brakes that is catching on the ski, you should be able to chamfer the end of the plastic so that if deflects easily off the ski.
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Yep, sure I have 100mm brakes. They've seen fairly heavy use over the past couple of seasons and I think they may have been bent inwards as they've definitely got worse this season.

I'll try chopping a slice off the plastic, see what that does, not sure where I'd get a piece of pipe. Cheers
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@Meltus, a lot depends on the profile of the junction of the topsheet and the sidewall - a sloping sidewall and a rounded junction makes it a lot easier for the brake to slide over than a vertical sidewall with a sharp corner to the topsheet. However the 100mm brakes measure 108mm between the plastic tips so they should work fine. However the plastic tips have square shoulders which can easily catch so, as @PowderAdict says, just chamfer off the corners at the contact point. When the brakes are deployed the metal arms on an 'out of the factory' brake are parallel to it's easy to spot if they've been bent at all - ie they're no longer parallel.

It's a few minutes while-u-wait job for the price of a beer for a shop rat to tweak 'em with a vice'n'pipe. The brake must be remove from the ski and the arms fully supported in the vice when bending as if the bending is done too far up in the housing it'll affect the locking mechanism.
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Shifts still flying out the door. Just cleaned out Salomons remaining stock and had another 37 sets delivered just in time as I was down to my last set:

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@spyderjon, true game changer , love mine and the flexibility they give you in a place like whister , have a true alpine style binding to ski on icy /firm conditions is so good
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