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Skiing ice....what to do?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Got a dose of the collywobbles skiing down the side of a piste last weekend that had been polished to a fine glass sheen by 500 racers and 500 parents all skiing the same 5 metre wide channel for 4 hours....hardpack I dont struggle with, real ice, I do. I know in theory I'm supposed to trust the outside edge etc, but....when it doesn't feel like you have any chance of holding an edge at all, what do you do? As little as possible? I went back bottom over tit on this stuff, not helped by proximity of a race course and also a fair number of people just staying still, didn't want to hit anyone else so took myself out with a less than graceful thump of my hip on said ice. There's got to be a better way.....I've heard people saying not to turn at all, that's fine unless you have to turn (obstacle in the way)....do you just stack the downhill ski with 100% of your weight and pray? This stuff still give me the fear like nothing else. Anyone got any helpfuls? Not sure I was massively helped by my ski's Nordica HnB's in a 95...edges last done in Dec...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Side slip
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@coddlesangers, Get race skis of your own and keep the edges sharp.

Edit: I would expect that you could find some second hand ones at a good price through your club.
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@rjs, I have, I leave them at home though too often as I'm always convinced I'll find some nice side piste while kids are off doing their thing Very Happy
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Don't panic Toofy Grin Makes a lot of difference.
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sugarmoma666 wrote:
Side slip


Agreed^
I'm no expert but I would have thought this was one of the situations where side-slipping skills should be put to good use.
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I find compelling vocally then going to the pub works pretty well
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Claude B wrote:
Don't panic Toofy Grin Makes a lot of difference.


Just need to bring a brown paper bag to breathe into so.....a shot of xanax....race skis....
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clarky999 wrote:
I find compelling vocally then going to the pub works pretty well


I think I compelled pretty vocally at the time. As it happens, I also then went to the pub. #expertlevel
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Race skis do very little on ice, if you don't know how to ski (them) Wink Thing is, you need speed, as only with speed you produce angles big enough to produce enough power to cut through/into ice. And ice is really where it shows if you can ski or not, as every flaw will show double or triple on course like that.
So basically, speed, big angles and bunch of power and it works fine. Oh and normally prepared skis, and that doesn't mean "oh but I hard them sharp last week by ski shop".
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Don't panic and don't apply more pressure by pressing onto the outside ski which seems like the logical thing to do... instead 'suck' the outside leg into your body by bending in at the knee which will apply more body weight to the ski and make the inside edge grip better.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
primoz wrote:
Thing is, you need speed


I agree, up to a point.
Regardless of equipment, the more you try to traverse the hill, the harder it is to get an edge - ie. to deal with ice, you need to be more in the fall-line and that, inevitably means going faster - but it's not the speed that helps, it's the line IMV.
As an extreme example, if you straightline a slope, it really doesn't matter if it's icy or not as you're not trying to get an edge anyway.

I've always thought it ironic that the better (specifically, the more confident) a skier gets, the faster he tends to ski and the more direct the line he takes down the hill.
Ergo, the better you get, the easier it becomes. Or so I've heard.

/ tin hat
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Give up, go to the bar and order a large Weissbier
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Red Leon, while that makes a lot of sense, it still matters that you are able to go around someone that decides to traverse in your way farther down the hill, so you need to remain in control and turn on the ice.
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Hell is other people though....fear of hitting someone made me turn the skis into a traverse, traversing made me conscious of the ice, being conscious of the ice made me ski like bambi on said ice...... buggerit.
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@coddlesangers, you are right, if the slope was end of day with hardly anyone on it then you probably would have had no problem, but lots of people add a whole new difficulty level.
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@Red Leon, it's actually speed that helps. Ok I agree with your extreme example, but lets assume you still need to turn at least a bit Smile Skiing is still pretty much basic physics. And with that, the more speed you take into corner, the higher is force pushing you out and therefore cutting into to ice. But to put pure physics away... especially as with my English skills, it's not going to be easy to get deeper into that Very Happy
I'm basically daily going down injected WC or training courses.... just sliding down or actually skiing (between the gates or free). And honestly, I have much less problems skiing super steep injected course then sliding it down (either way with race skis that are also race ready... freshly for every single day). When you slide, you can generate very little of pressure on edge of ski and if it's really icy (something what you don't really see on slopes open for public), you just slide, no matter how good your skis are. Once you get some speed and you make turn, it gets easier. But if you want to make turn that really works, that means getting to so extreme angles, that basically you touch snow with your butt. And for that you need speed Smile
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Quote:

As an extreme example, if you straightline a slope, it really doesn't matter if it's icy or not as you're not trying to get an edge anyway.


on really an acceptable approach on a closed piste though
"The go really fast and hope you hit a flat spot before you need to make a sharp turn" is bang out of order if there are people to avoid.
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I should clarify that I was in no way suggesting straight-lining as a way of dealing with an icy slope. I was just saying that the more you're traversing the slope, the less chance you have of getting an edge to hold against the effects of gravity.

Edit: by my logic, it should be harder to get and hold an edge in slalom that in downhill. Is that the case?

@Primoz I understand and I agree - like I said, the better skier you are, the faster you are prepared to go, the less you fight gravity and the easier it gets.
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@coddlesangers, this may be stating the obvious, but almost always where a piste has been polished the snow has been brushed off to the side. I (almost) always manage to find a line of grippy snow at the side. Then retire to bar and drink Weissbier.
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IMO.

- Sharp edges
- Tactics (look for softer places to slow down)
- Be soft/subtle - no sudden/jerky movements
- Get tip to bite at start of turn
- Remain balanced over centre of foot, so weight is across whole of edge.
- Don't over-edge
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Pretty much the only thing on an averagely untuned punter ski in traffic is to drift it forwards or backwards til you get to some grip to stick a turn in. But yeah to add to the general advice - avoid.
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You can't side slip on ice. Only racers (or geeks) will have edges that can do anything of note. So yes basically glide over it on to something with grip (edge of the piste usually). I was once on the La Plagne Bellecote glacier when all the snow had been blown/scraped off. It was a great game of skittles while it lasted. Escaped without injury thankfully.
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Speed doesn't help. At all. @primoz, you should know better.

Sharp edges do.

Angulation does. Try ensuring your downhill pole tip is on the snow. Angulation: hips into hill, shoulders over feet (i.e. stacked and balanced). Shoulders countered a bit to allow balance and quicker response.

The effect of this is to put your edges at a considerable greater angle. Weight if you can balance on the one ski 100% on lower ski, but ready to catch on the uphill ski if you slide away. Side slipping/sliding not an issue itself if you are balanced. You just go sideways.

And yes, as mentioned keep your eyes peeled for soft patches for control or stopping.

Not quite the right context but here's sort of what I am talking about albeit in a racing context, ignore LH piccie & loosely, think RHS picture. See how the edge angle is so much greater? But you can imagine centre or mass straight down onto outside edge.

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Quote:

Speed doesn't help. At all. @primoz, you should know better.

Sharp edges do.

Angulation does.

+1
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Tks all. Hopefully WON'T get a chance to practice this for a while, but am going to make sure my edges get a tune every time the nippers does. Or at least every 2nd or 3rd time... nice images to work on @under a new name, i dream of my hip getting that close to the snow Very Happy
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@coddlesangers, obviously a teeny bit of an exaggeration but I trust you get the idea.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
As been stated above, aim for the soft stuff that's been scraped off and brace yourself for a jolt as the edges bite.......
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@under a new name, without speed there's no proper angulation Wink There's simply no way you will get your butt on snow at 10km/h Smile Ok to be correct... you will, but not the way you want to, as with such angulation, and so low speed, you will just sit down on snow and you won't press any ski to make right arc. That's one reason why I (or as matter of fact anyone who ever skied them) say race skis don't work at 50km/h (except for SL skis, but even for those you need some speed).... as you need way more speed to properly bend them. And that's what I meant with more speed. Wink
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Layne wrote:
You can't side slip on ice.


Why? I do.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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@primoz, bollokks. I can angulate perfectly well at a standstill. I think I see your point but I’m not entirely wink sure it’s appropriate for everyone NehNeh
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@coddlesangers, ...yep sharp edges help. But this too:

Dec '16. I slide past Alex (11 years' old then), me going sideways on this icy, icy, steepness. He is doing perfect short turns, digging in very turn. I think I am cr=p until an instructor passes me going sideways even faster then I am. Not just me then. Alex and I meet up at the bottom of this section and I say ',,,how the hell did you put turns in on that?...'. We watch up the hill, and everyone is going sideways, with a just a couple putting in controlled turns. And Alex says, '...well, I just get my edges in and keep them there..'. He is thin as a rake and weighs 75 pounds. And went down that section slowly, in control, doing a perfect line of turns.

Right, that's it...I am getting some coaching.

I've described this lesson somewhere else here, since it shocked me. To cut a long story short, after some diagnosis, Sasha takes me onto this really icy steepness and said, 'as your skis swing around, punch forward with both hands, whilst forcing your body down' ... and he shows me the position. Fine. Off he goes and I am in his tracks, he turns, punches, and completely stops on the ice....AAAARgh I am really tanking towards him, almost on top of him...I instinctively do the same to stop from piling into the back of him, and the moment I have stopped, he is into another turn, again stopping instantly by punching aggressively and really weighting his skis, again I nearly pile into the back of him, but punch and stop....on ice...and then use the rebound to go into the next turn, just as Sasha has done....on ice.. all on ice. And that was it.

Now, Alex puts in short turns on ice, with his brilliant, intuitive feel for skiing. Perfect angulation, dammit. But now, instead of sideways, I can follow him. For information, Sasha works at the brilliant Swiss Mountain Sports in Crans Montana. After the private lesson I popped into the office to thank Yves, the director. I outlined how good Sasha had been at diagnosing my problem and immediately setting an exercise which sorted it. Yves smiled and said 'hmm yes...thought he would be able to sort it quickly...'. Excellent.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think as ever there is a range of what people are calling "ice".

The OP stated "hardpack I dont struggle with, real ice, I do".
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@valais2, Exactly. Get a lesson.
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Layne wrote:
I think as ever there is a range of what people are calling "ice".

The OP stated "hardpack I dont struggle with, real ice, I do".


Someone needs to put together a “Bristol Stool Scale” for snow conditions.
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under a new name wrote:
@primoz, bollokks. I can angulate perfectly well at a standstill.

Really? You can lean this far in standstill?

What can I say... good for you, and I think rest of us (including Hirscher) need to work some more on this Wink
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@primoz, I didn’t say that....
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Soften the knees, relax body, pray? Not much of it about this season...yet??
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primoz wrote:
under a new name wrote:
@primoz, bollokks. I can angulate perfectly well at a standstill.

Really? You can lean this far in standstill?


On a 50 degree slope, yes. Laughing

but in your photo the skier needs the extreme edging because he is at speed but, having skied a lot of steep and icy slopes, speed isn't necessary ski them.

There is also a difference between a water injected ski run, one that is merely polished and hard snow and actual refrozen water (aka ice).


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 17-01-18 9:20; edited 2 times in total
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In addition to the general advice above, I find that you also need confidence (not over) to ski ice. A tentative approach, just doesn't work IMO.
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