 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Kramer, if there is no sign of skiing from when the skis are flat on the snow until they are flat again on the snow, then you are carving the complete turn from end to end, and for a purely carved turn, yes, you probably are initiating them properly. (but note: carving is not the only way to turn)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Rusty Guy, bad grammar on my part. The instructor I was talking to was helping out with the group guiding we were doing and not teaching, we were just talking on the chair lift. He had taught a lesson with one of the other members of the group we went on holiday with. It was his first lesson in 7-8 years. He had been sceptical about the benefits beforehand, but enjoyed the 3 hr lesson and spent most of the evening talking about it. He was taught to initiate the turn by imagining that he was squashing a tomato under the balls of his foot (outside ski) and rolling onto the edge. Most of his weight was to be on this ski. He was also taught to extend upwards when starting the turn. This is the way that I was taught to ski only 3 years ago, so def not old school. The first year I did the local ski school in the mornings. After that first year we've had two holidays each winter, one of which being just my wife and I, in Banff and now WP. We have had lessons during these holidays. The Banff lessons being part of the 3 day guiding/lessons combination. We were still taught as above with no mention that I can remember of using the inside ski, other than let it help a bit, but no emphasis. As mentioned though, what you teach and what a student will hear are different things and being new to skiing and trying hard means that I may of been concerntrating on getting the outside ski to work and just subconsciously chosen not to hear/discount comments about the inside ski.
None of our party could quite understand why you'd want to initiate the turn by tipping the inside knee, even after I'd demonstrated it in the middle of the living room. I suppose I'm just not cut out to be an instructor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, that's what I thought.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
So, is it possible to do a short radius purely carved turn?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Kramer, depends on what you mean by short radius, but yes. A ski with a short radius sidecut like a slalom ski, when put on a high edge abgle will carve a short radius turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
As short as 2-3 metres? And are you purely carving the transition, or is it more jumping from edge to edge if you see what I mean?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Martin Bell,
You are posting early...bad snow today or late start...?? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Kramer, AFAIK not anything like that tight. If you have the ski length and sidecut figures it's just a bit of 3D geometry to work out the turn radius for a given ski tip angle - probably about 1/2 and hour with paper and pencil I would guess. I've not done it myself, but a guy who had it all set up on a little computer utility showed it was something like 30-40% reduction in radius at best for about a 80 degree tip angle (so something like 8-9m for a typical slalom ski). Any more than that and you start running out of a) grip on the snow, b) leg length to keep the inside leg from lifting the outer one off the snow and c) b@lls!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That's what I thought, GrahamN.
So, with "retraction turns", are these turns where you use the loading of the ski on edge to "spring" your legs onto the other edge?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Kramer, no, that's not what retraction turns help you do (from my perspective, at least). There is very little "spring" or "rebound" in modern skiing, IMO. Rather, turns are shaped by progressively rolling the skis onto their new set of edges (left from right or right from left) and then using guiding and further edging/tipping to shape the turn radius.
Retraction turns are simply turns that transition with a flexing of the joints (ankle, knees, hips) followed by a progressive extension through the body of the turn to the next transition. The edge change occurs during the retraction (or "pulling up of the feet toward the knees").
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for posting this, Martin!
What is it about these kinds of turns that makes them fast? Being an "old school racer", I'd want to round the turn out so that I could ride more of an edge. Clearly, however, that's not the fast way to ski these courses. Why is that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Martin Bell, i do know joy and her husband buck. they are a wonderful couple. i will say hello.
easiski, i think your point about nothing new vis a vis parallel shins is right on the money, oops spot on. it's also another great example of......"sames"
ssh, i don't think the "spring or rebound" has left skiing. load up a nordica slalom ski in a turn. it is something we still have as a tool. we are however, able to manage these forces via what we do with our legs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Rusty Guy, I believe that you and I may be saying the same thing in different ways. My use of the terms were intended to indicate the managing of the forces in a way that reduces or eliminates the rapid movements of the body as a result of the releasing of those built-up forces. I am sure that there are better ways of saying it, and would appreciate how you would indicate that.
Historically, I would load up the ski, set the edges, and use the resulting rebound to literally launch me into the edge change. I don't do that any more. Instead, I load up the skis, but manage the load and release it over a longer time period, rolling my skis into the new turn and using the skis' stored energy to propell me into the next turn. I view these as very different approaches, and it was that differentiation that I was attempting to make.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
ssh, i simply disagreed with you equating modern skiing as being devoid from rebound. my point is simply that rebound still exists and that it always will as long as skis bend. we can launch if we need to or so desire, or we can manage the lateral movement in as you describe a more prolonged manner.
i think wc athletes still have a fair amount of launch.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Rusty Guy, I think they often have launch they don't intend!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
easiski, certainly
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Rusty Guy, note that I said "limited" not "devoid", which are very different, IMO. "Limited" was intended to be a relative term. Back in the day, I intentionally and suddenly built up a ton of rebound energy that I would use to launch me off the snow to help with my edge change and pivot initiation of the turn. Now, I build up energy more progressively, and use it to power the next turn without any visible "up" at the initiation. Whether or not I have fully achieved this objective I am uncertain (no self-analysis video this year, yet), but observers are using words like "smooth" to describe my skiing, even in uneven terrain and snow conditions.
I think that a focus on trying to generate additional rebound energy for most recreational skiers is counter-productive. Rather, I would encourage those skiers to consider ways of making pressure build-up and release more progressive, to focus on moving into the new turn, and to manage the forces that the turn generates in a way that aids in creating progressive (as opposed to sudden) cycles that link turns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| ssh wrote: |
| Martin Bell wrote: |
| http://www.skiracing.com/news_photos/ALPINE/180high-BODEmontage-LeMaste.jpg |
What is it about these kinds of turns that makes them fast? Being an "old school racer", I'd want to round the turn out so that I could ride more of an edge. Clearly, however, that's not the fast way to ski these courses. Why is that? |
ssh, I'm not sure. It must be something to do with the new skis making it easier to transition smoothly from a skidded turn entrance into a carved turn exit. And so a straighter (& shorter) line is now possible. But pointing your skis inside the line of the gate like that is obviously a dangerous game, and proved Bode's undoing in the Olympic Super G the other day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
it was an attempt at british humor or is that humour? thought we were good enough friend that you would have a chuckle
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 24-02-06 13:53; edited 3 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rusty Guy, sorry, I said "very little". Apologies.
Sorry I didn't get the joke. It's been a challenging few weeks for me, and it's clear that my sense of humor is suffering. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I am back from Obertauern and will give a little feed back to those interested in how the learning went for an old fashioned skier.
It was a busy week and I ended up having one private lesson with Georg who explained he does not normally do privates as he teaches children for the first half of the week before going off to teach tennis. He was however an excellent skier and a nice bloke.
I explained that I wanted to learn how to use modern equipment correctly so that I can ski more difficult types of snow explaining that I have difficulty on icy conditions and in tricky snow. In particular I don’t carve well at all.
I was taken up the hill and followed him down a wee bit and he pretty quickly isolated a problem my upper ski was skidding in at the back towards the lower ski. He explained that it was my pelvic alignment not allowing me to put enough weight on my upper ski in the turn and tried to get me to put my upper ski forward more to correct my pelvic alignment. He explained this was not ideal technique but I needed to feel the right position for my pelvis.( I think)
We tried skiing like this for a few runs and I had a couple of falls as I overbalanced with too much weight on my inside ski.
We then went and skied a variety of slopes to see how it worked, it seemed to go OK but the snow conditions were near ideal.
The lesson was useful but I still need quite a lot more practice and have very little awareness of my skis I don’t really carve my turns still unless on the easiest of runs and snow and have little idea of how to correct things.
Still I enjoy what I am doing but feel that at some point I need rather more radical correction it is just a question of whether in my mid forties and being a bit of a physical idiot it is worth it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
T Bar, Of course it's worth it. Mid-forties isn't old and the older you are the more benefot you'll find from doing it right. That is, when you ski with no effort and no stress on the body you should be able to continue skiing as long as you can hobble. The young can get away with all sorts of stuff -not us slightly older people! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
TBar ... Im in my mid forties and am not a BIT of a physical idiot... i am a TOTAL physical idiot.... no proprioception = complete and utter klutz!
I can tell you it IS worth it... if it is what you want to do...
i started to learn to surf a couple of years ago... and was promptly told bya a "friend" that i shoudl stop now as I would never be any good at it... it is too hard and able bodied people my age struggle... I don't care i told him i'd ride a borad on my belly if i needed to.... but ii was damn well going to do it as long as I liked doing so...
I work hard to learn to ski - much harder than a "normal" person would ever need to... but at the end of the day I enjoy the learning and improving my technique makes me able to enjoy skiing in more places and in more conditions.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
little tiger, good on you! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Skiing is addictive .....
Surfing is WORSE (if that is possible)...
My mother has a fit at the thought of ME learning to ski at my age ... rollerblading lessons totally sent her into a spin.... surfing - she keeps waiting for me to drown myself... My father loves the idea... he keeps encouraging me 
My friends think it is great - one friend (50 this year) came for a "girls learn to surf weekend" with me... just us and the surf lessons and a spa and sauna .... left hubby at home gardening and dog sitting
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
What's 50 got to do with ageism? That's young, in my book 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Nick Zotov, Yes - but you can already ski. Maybe over 60s would like to learn too - oldest beginner I ever taught was 82, and his wife ws 78 - good on them I say. Lets have more of them!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Nick Zotov ... my "model" for ski aims is Frank...
Frank is in his 80's and still races masters.... he complained it was unfair that the last category was 70+ because 80 is a big difference from 70.... last i heard they were going to make an 80+ category....
Frank sold his business a couple of years ago.... it was a terrible season snow wise the year after.... but there was Frank out skiing everyday... off-piste of course.... just because he could! .... meanwhile everyone else was staying on the groomed and moaning about the snow....
i want to ski like Frank when i am Franks age... he does not ski super fast... but always smooth and controlled....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kramer, if I look back and see two parallel lines with no skidding evident whatsoever, I'm looking at someone else's tracks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
richmond, it doesn't have to be that way...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
