 Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| With the aid of a calculator I could compare cost per ski lift with a resort that I am more familiar with. |
Surely cost per ski run is more appropriate. There are resorts in some part of the world (e.g. Japan) where each run has a quad chair up each side to deal with the volume of skiers they get: the cost per ski lift there is a quarter of the cost per run.
Conversely, in other parts of the world, a single chair can serve upwards of 20 runs. So the cost per ski lift is 20 times the cost per run.
Which do you prefer: lots of lifts, or lots of runs?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| If you want to try Utah, what about signing up for next year's Epic Academy. I'm sure WTFH would be happy to room share. |
Next year we're off to Aspen!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| RobW wrote: |
| Which do you prefer: lots of lifts, or lots of runs? |
Lots of runs with very few people on them!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| RobW wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| With the aid of a calculator I could compare cost per ski lift with a resort that I am more familiar with. |
Surely cost per ski run is more appropriate. There are resorts in some part of the world (e.g. Japan) where each run has a quad chair up each side to deal with the volume of skiers they get: the cost per ski lift there is a quarter of the cost per run.
Conversely, in other parts of the world, a single chair can serve upwards of 20 runs. So the cost per ski lift is 20 times the cost per run.
Which do you prefer: lots of lifts, or lots of runs? |
Agree, that cost of ticket for the amount of skiing is a more important ratio, but do you compare the number of runs or the total length of runs? How do you compare one run like the Aguille Rouge in Les Arcs, with an itty-bitty piste which takes no more than a minute to ski top to bottom? And should you also factor in acearage of off-piste? And what do you define off-piste as? It will soon become a PhD thesis in order to do this, hence my suggestion of number of lifts as a (poor) proxy.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 14-02-06 14:06; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| If you want to try Utah, what about signing up for next year's Epic Academy. I'm sure WTFH would be happy to room share. |
Next year we're off to Aspen! |
How much will the lift ticket be? 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
Agree, that cost of ticket for the amount of skiing is a more important ratio, but do you compare the number of runs or the total length of runs? . |
Depends what you want to prove! Lies, damn lies, and statistics...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Naw. There's no-one on that, and WTFH wanted very few. 
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| RobW wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
Agree, that cost of ticket for the amount of skiing is a more important ratio, but do you compare the number of runs or the total length of runs? . |
Depends what you want to prove! Lies, damn lies, and statistics... |
That's why I started off just showing the £££s 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| How much will the lift ticket be? |
$444 (£256) for a six day pass this season (plus sales tax?). Some small discounts apply if you buy in advance for low-season tickets.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| RobW wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
Agree, that cost of ticket for the amount of skiing is a more important ratio, but do you compare the number of runs or the total length of runs? . |
Depends what you want to prove! Lies, damn lies, and statistics... |
Yes, it's a tricky one. Best not to make the comparision in the first place, in my opinion.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| How do US resorts secure their in-bounds off-piste terrain? Do they blast more dynamite that European resorts? |
From what I saw, or more precisely heard, last week then yes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I wonder if this thread is an illustration of a cynic being someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing...
I don't think any of the following are the only factor when deciding whether a lift ticket is good value or not:
1. length of marked runs
2. acreage of ski area
3. number of lifts
4. snow quality
That said, I think North American lift tickets are clearly over-priced. Why? Because so many discounts seem to be available if you buy them somewhere other than the window. I know it make some people feel special that they got 10 bucks knocked off because they bought their pass at the 7-11 in Squamish (or whatever). To me, that just smacks of non-transparent pricing and it makes me cross 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Its the American way. They don't mind paying top dollar for something as long as they think that they are paying less than some other mug. Don't be that mug!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This debate has lost me. It's a bit like comparing the cost of the eggs in your truffle omelette at the restaurant, and ignoring quality as well as cost of service, truffles, the other courses, and the cost of getting to the restaurant in the first place.
The majority of skiers (and probably snowHeads) ski most of the time on piste. You get plenty of powder in the Alps, if not as much as in some US resorts. Even that is hardly reliable. Lift pass costs are more expensive than in Europe (unless there are resorts like Sainte Foy where you can ski for a tenner a day, I don't know. Anyway the cost of the lift pass is a small part of the cost of travelling, accommodation, eating out, and all the other elements of your holiday budget.
Anyone would think skiing in Europe is all about Val and Wengen. There a huge choice of different types of skiing, plenty of powder for last minute bookers, as broad a variety of cultures and terrains as you could hope for, from Poland to Spain to Bulgaria, resorts large and small, expensive and very cheap. Why not go to the US if that takes your fancy. But I don't think people steer clear of North American resorts because of some misapprehension about cost or anything else - it's just that there's more than enough on offer in Europe somewhere for the vast majority of snowlovers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| How much will the lift ticket be? |
$444 (£256) for a six day pass this season (plus sales tax?). Some small discounts apply if you buy in advance for low-season tickets. |
It will be less than that at the Academy, but yes, the price includes tax.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PG wrote: |
| But I don't think people steer clear of North American resorts because of some misapprehension about cost or anything else - it's just that there's more than enough on offer in Europe somewhere for the vast majority of snowlovers. |
And that is the sad thing - too many people are afraid to try beyond the horizons of Europe, you should try some time, PG, you might find that you actually ENJOY it!
As I've said repeatedly, I started this thread to show that purely in financial terms, lift tickets in Utah are not greatly more expensive than in Europe. That's all I wanted to do. I believe I achieved that objective, showing that one day of skiing is similarly priced, and that one week of skiing may be £12 more, but that is not exactly a significant amount, yet some keep harping on, even in light of these facts, that it lift tickets in the US are more expensive, and implying it is a great difference.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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What, you mean ski it because it's there? Er no, sorry, don't see the point. Of course I would enjoy it. I would no doubt also enjoy skiing in Kazakhstan, or Korea. But I've done my travelling around the world thing, I now have kids/ties/responsibilities.
I can still ski a different line down a mountain within a few miles of where I live for the rest of my life if I wanted. I have no need to cross the Atlantic to ski a different shape hill on allegedly different quality snow... just because it's there. I've grown out of that phase...
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| PG wrote: |
What, you mean ski it because it's there? Er no, sorry, don't see the point. Of course I would enjoy it. I would no doubt also enjoy skiing in Kazakhstan, or Korea. But I've done my travelling around the world thing, I now have kids/ties/responsibilities.
I can still ski a different line down a mountain within a few miles of where I live for the rest of my life if I wanted. I have no need to cross the Atlantic to ski a different shape hill on allegedly different quality snow... just because it's there. I've grown out of that phase... |
I'm happy to say I haven't (edit: haven't grown out of the phase of wanting to ski somewhere because it is there to be skiied)
I like to go new places, and explore new things. I'm not stuck in one place, one country, one continent. (and thankfully neither were my parents when I was growing up, as they taught me to work and save money, and to travel with them) (edit: even with their kids/ties/responsibilities, they felt that broadening my horizons was an important part of bringing me up)
(Edited so that I don't appear to have been too selective in my quoting)
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 14-02-06 16:02; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
| But I don't think people steer clear of North American resorts because of some misapprehension about cost or anything else - it's just that there's more than enough on offer in Europe somewhere for the vast majority of snowlovers. |
And that is the sad thing - too many people are afraid to try beyond the horizons of Europe, you should try some time, PG, you might find that you actually ENJOY it!
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And too many people are afraid to go somewhere there might be people speaking a foreign language.
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ise, yes, you're right, giving people discounts is to their detriment. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ise wrote: |
| And too many people are afraid to go somewhere there might be people speaking a foreign language. |
You mean like when I ski in France, Austria or Switzerland?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Selective cut and pasting again? As I wrote, I've done my share of travelling and exploring - lots of it, in fact. Greatly enjoyed it. But of course it's only when you've got ties that life takes on a different meaning. Usually you don't realise you've got something to grow out of until that happens.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| And too many people are afraid to go somewhere there might be people speaking a foreign language. |
You mean like when I ski in France, Austria or Switzerland? |
It was just an general observation, don't be so touchy.
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You know it makes sense.
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| PG wrote: |
| Selective cut and pasting again? As I wrote, I've done my share of travelling and exploring - lots of it, in fact. Greatly enjoyed it. But of course it's only when you've got ties that life takes on a different meaning. Usually you don't realise you've got something to grow out of until that happens. |
PG, no, I believe my complete reply to you included referring to your post about having children. If you want, I'll edit my reply to include your full quote.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| ise, yes, you're right, giving people discounts is to their detriment. |
Operating a market where the consumer has incomplete knowledge is to their detriment, there's a couple of hundred years of economic theory to back this up. So, yes, I'm right.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, go ahead. Kids are only one possible tie, by the way.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ise wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| And too many people are afraid to go somewhere there might be people speaking a foreign language. |
You mean like when I ski in France, Austria or Switzerland? |
It was just an general observation, don't be so touchy. |
In the context of this thread, how could I read it any other way?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ise wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| ise, yes, you're right, giving people discounts is to their detriment. |
Operating a market where the consumer has incomplete knowledge is to their detriment, there's a couple of hundred years of economic theory to back this up. So, yes, I'm right. |
When does a consumer have "complete knowledge"?
And surely that is what places like this website are useful for - to broaden the knowledge of consumers. If people were to ask DG Orf about skiing, I suspect he would talk about Wengen in the main, but on here, people can find out about other places to ski apart from Wengen.
In the same way, in the days before Amazon, or eBay, people would mainly shop in bookstores, etc. Now, they have other options. Not everyone knows about CD-WOW, or CD-Baby, but they can find out.
So, I have posted on here about getting discount lift tickets in a chain of shops in Salt Lake City, and are you saying that I shouldn't do this?
See, if you go to a resort and ask where to get cheap tickets, plenty of people will tell you. It's not a trade secret. It's not difficult to find out.
I also book my flights with Trailfinders, and sometimes use Expedia or Opodo. Is it to consumers' detriment that others don't?
There's a couple of centuries worth of economic theory summed up in "Caveat Emptor".
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It's quite amusing really. You are stressing the benefits of 'broadening the mind' to someone who has spent half a lifetime living abroad, and travelling at every opportunity, including a lot of time spent way beyond Europe's frontiers. But it's just simple, common sense that sooner a later a point is reached where responsibilities or restrictions of some form or other will limit such a lifestyle.
I wrote:
| Quote: |
| But I don't think people steer clear of North American resorts because of some misapprehension about cost or anything else - it's just that there's more than enough on offer in Europe somewhere for the vast majority of snowlovers. |
To which you responded:
| Quote: |
| And that is the sad thing - too many people are afraid to try beyond the horizons of Europe, you should try some time, PG, you might find that you actually ENJOY it! |
Sorry - but it's not 'sad' in many cases - just unavoidable. And as I made clear above obviously skiing in the US or Outer Mongolia (preferably Outer Mongolia) would be great. But priorities and other demands are the deciding factor, eventually.
When that happens, you're not losing out. Just moving on.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG, there is nothing wrong with moving on, but your belief in the quote above, that "there's more than enough on offer in Europe" sounds like you don't believe anyone else has any reason to go beyond Europe for a ski trip, and that attitude, that no one else should be encouraged to travel, is indeed sad.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The precise quote was "for the vast majority of snowlovers". These may include those on a restricted budget, with families, work restrictions, limited holiday allowances, or quite simply those who just wish to ski down an easy piste within easy reach of their home country.
So no it's not sad, just a statement of fact. What's more, you are hardly broadening the mind by travelling to the States to slide down a mountain. No more than you would do so by visiting Benidorm and eating at El Greasy Spoon every day, in fact. Apparently travel isn't what it once was. In my day it was setting off for a few months with £20 in your pocket, living hand to mouth, hitching from place to place, getting to know a country away from tourist haunts. Not flying by jumbo jet to spend a couple of weeks skiing in Snowbird with a budget of a few grand  .
Broaden the mind, go spend a fortnight in Whistler, get to know the country. Yeah, sure
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 14-02-06 16:45; edited 1 time in total
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PG, broaden your kids minds. Don't limit them to your own desires, but let them experience different types of snow, customer service, lift queues, languages. You may have moved on and settled down. Don't force them to settle like you when they are still young. Let them learn, let them experience, let them see places you haven't been. Don't cramp them with your "stay at home" attitude.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| PG, broaden your kids minds. Don't limit them to your own desires, but let them experience different types of snow, customer service, lift queues, languages. You may have moved on and settled down. Don't force them to settle like you when they are still young. Let them learn, let them experience, let them see places you haven't been. Don't cramp them with your "stay at home" attitude. |
What on earth are you rattling on about? My kids have visited more countries that most, have travelled around the world, one on her own to Oz to stay with people she'd never met, aged 11, for nearly two months. Do you have kids? What a load of complete pretentious codswallop.
Edit: another I bundled to off to go stay in Zimbabwe for a summer three years ago, with some friends. On her own.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Tue 14-02-06 16:50; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PG wrote: |
Apparently travel isn't what it once was. In my day it was setting off for a few months with £20 in your pocket, living hand to mouth, hitching from place to place, getting to know a country away from tourist haunts. Not flying by jumbo jet to spend a couple of weeks skiing in Snowbird with a budget of a few grand .
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In my day, you didn't get the £20, you went out and earned it. "Daddy" didn't tell me I couldn't go somewhere because he'd never been. My dad told me costs, and got me to find a job to pay the costs if I wanted to go.
(although I fear this thread is now totally derailed, so I'd just like to add...
http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-four-yorkshiremen.html
)
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| PG wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| PG, broaden your kids minds. Don't limit them to your own desires, but let them experience different types of snow, customer service, lift queues, languages. You may have moved on and settled down. Don't force them to settle like you when they are still young. Let them learn, let them experience, let them see places you haven't been. Don't cramp them with your "stay at home" attitude. |
What on earth are you rattling on about? My kids have visited more countries that most, have travelled around the world, one on her own to Oz to stay with people she'd never met, aged 11, for nearly two months. Do you have kids? What a load of complete pretentious codswallop. |
But you don't want them to ski in America?
You think it is pointless?
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FAQ
