 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PG wrote: |
There's only one answer to all this for fanatical skiers. Emigrate (whichever side of the Pond takes your fancy). My last 7 seven days skiing have cost me £4.73  |
What about mortgage costs/property taxes/ooportunity costs of UK salary foregone etc?
I agree with the sentiment though the more you do the cheaper its gets and once you've broken even on a season pass you're laughing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I agree with the sentiment though the more you do the cheaper its gets and once you've broken even on a season pass you're laughing. |
I think the same principal applies to the purchase of just one week's lift pass: buying one multi-day pass is likely to be better value for money than buying six one-day passes.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 14-02-06 11:22; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My 13 day trip to Utah a few years ago cost £105 per skiing day all in, so it can be done a lot cheaper than WTFH managed, but as a comparison a similar off-peak multi-resort trip to Austria normally costs me £80-85 per skiing day, and if 4 of you drive out to France, get 8 days skiing and self-cater, it's possible to get it down to about £75 per skiing day.
I've only skied in the US that one time, and it was fantastic, I'd recommend it and go again if I had the option of a 2wk ski holiday, but don't let anybody tell you it's cheap!
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Its surprising what locals can get away with. On a recent trip we didn't pay for any car-parking, free saunas and the beers can come cheaper as well - some resorts have 3 rates for these, local, seasonaire and tourist, and 40% off new skis... although the last was a connection to the local ski school rates...
I would go to Utah, for example but I stay in Europe because the mountains are soooo biiiiggggg
My trip costs of £120 a day didn't inculde fuel or tolls or the ferry but then I splashed out on a new jacket so it evened itself out ok...
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Hmm, you can't really compare, far too many differences. If you want to compare to the price of popular European resorts (chamonix, val d'isere, zermatt etc.) you would have to compare it to the price of an equivalent popular US resort (Mamoth, Aspen, Vail etc.). Then a price difference would appear! You could easily find a less well known European resort at a cheaper price as well. The whole of PDS (not exactly unknown) is 55CHF for a day, that makes about 24ish pounds? And thats for the whole of PDS, if you get the specific area passes, its cheaper! I seem to recall that the Grand Massif pass is about the price same as that as well. It seems that the highly priced European resorts all have glaciers. Why do glaciers make it that much more expensive?? (marketing gimmick probably...)
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| JT wrote: |
| I would go to Utah, for example but I stay in Europe because the mountains are soooo biiiiggggg |
I'd like to try some of the US resorts (even though I have a preference for large ski domains with reasonable price lift passes ), but unfortunately for me it is just too far to get to. For family and work reasons it is very difficult for me to get away for longer than one week during the winter, so four of my trips this season will be long weekends. Given this restriction a trip to the US is just not feasible. There's just too many time zones involved!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
For comparison, according to their websites:
Chamonix = £30.89
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That price is for a full valley (excluding Les Houches) 1-day ticket. The only reason for buying that is if you're doing the Vallée Blanche and then want to do somewhere else as well that day - you would normally go to a single area for the whole day. The price for a day at Argentiere is £25.30 (Eur 36), and the other areas are cheaper. The full area 6 day pass works out at <£22/day. And that is a fairly expensive area by Alpine standards. (You do have to pay extra though if you take the lift to the top of the Aigulle des Grand Montets - Eur5 per trip). Last time I was out there I got 11930m vertical (all but about 1500m off-piste) in the day, and at many of the lifts skied straight from the slope on to the chair - no problem with lift queues there!
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| dub_01 wrote: |
| Hmm, you can't really compare, far too many differences. If you want to compare to the price of popular European resorts (chamonix, val d'isere, zermatt etc.) you would have to compare it to the price of an equivalent popular US resort (Mamoth, Aspen, Vail etc.). |
So, you're saying that Snowbird is not a popular US resort? What a load of TWADDLE!
(unless by "popular" you mean over-crowded)
And for your £24 do you ski the whole resort in that one day? NO! So, what's the point in paying so much if you ski only a tiny fraction?
As for mountain size, I guess if you are sticking to pistes, then it does matter how many pistes there are, and how long they are. If you're interested in skiing powder, then who cares about 600km of piste? I know I don't!
But if you want to do it that way, tell me, how many runs are there in Mineral Basin, or the Road to Provo, or on Mount Baldy?
Well, if you go by official runs on the trail map, the answer is 18, 4 and 0.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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But comparing like with like is a not unreasonable suggestion, and there are myriads of small resorts in Europe with huge off piste areas accessible for a fraction of the costs of the likes of Tignes or the 3V.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| dub_01 wrote: |
| Hmm, you can't really compare, far too many differences. If you want to compare to the price of popular European resorts (chamonix, val d'isere, zermatt etc.) you would have to compare it to the price of an equivalent popular US resort (Mamoth, Aspen, Vail etc.). |
So, you're saying that Snowbird is not a popular US resort? What a load of TWADDLE!
(unless by "popular" you mean over-crowded)
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I think you'll find that the important word in Dub_01's post was "equivalent", not "popular". I don't think that he was suggesting that Snowbird wasn't popular, just that it wasn't a comparable size to the bigger ski domains in Europe.
Fox, do you think there is no relationship between on-piste mileage and off-piste acreage? Is there more off-piste in Snowbird than there is in the Trois Vallees?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 14-02-06 12:51; edited 1 time in total
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
And for your £24 do you ski the whole resort in that one day? NO! So, what's the point in paying so much if you ski only a tiny fraction?
As for mountain size, I guess if you are sticking to pistes, then it does matter how many pistes there are, and how long they are. If you're interested in skiing powder, then who cares about 600km of piste? I know I don't! |
I've frequently skied right across from Courchevel to Val Thorens and back in a single day. Same goes for Les Arcs/La Plagne, and Tignes/Val d'Isere. Of course I didn't use every single lift, ski every single piste or sample all the available off-piste on any of those days, but I did ski enough of those domains to get a good feel for the different areas, and get to sample lunch in different locations. And as I said earlier, most people go skiing for more than just one day at a time, so the benefit of a large domain like Paradiski is that you can spend successive days getting to know individual parts of the ski domain very well, but still have the benefit of one multi-day lift pass (which is always better value for money than individual day tickets).
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You know it makes sense.
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This is what matters to me regarding a resort; if I wanted to ski off the back of Gemstock in Andermatt all I would need is good sense and the abilty to find my way down...good sense MIGHT include mean taking a guide etc etc. Nothing else would stop me but I would have to accept the risks involved. And I could go virtually anywhere I wanted. What is the definition of back country? Because if it allows the same freedom then what is all the fuss about...!!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PG wrote: |
| But comparing like with like is a not unreasonable suggestion, and there are myriads of small resorts in Europe with huge off piste areas accessible for a fraction of the costs of the likes of Tignes or the 3V. |
Sainte Foy for example, with one day tickets (before discounts) of €19 (£13), or €105 (£72) for a week's ticket. FI you have a Paradiski season ticket you get two free days at Sainte Foy, making it even better value for money
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 14-02-06 12:56; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| I think you'll find that the important word in Dub_01's post was "equivalent", not "popular". I don't think that he was suggesting that Snowbird wasn't popular, just that it wasn't a comparable size to the bigger ski domains in Europe. |
Sorry, I guess I misread when he said "equivalent popular" as meaning somewhere which was equally as popular
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Fox, do you think there is no relationship between on-piste mileage and off-piste acreage? |
Rob, I would say the relationship is tenuous at best, take, for example, Mount Baldy in Alta - it has no pistes. You get to the top of the Collins lift, and ski to your left as far as you want to go - probably up to about 400m. You can then drop down into the bowl anywhere along that traverse. It is in-bounds off piste.
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Is there more off-piste in Snowbird than there is in the Trois Vallees? |
I would say there is more in-bounds off-piste in Snowbird than in the 3V. i.e. without a guide, avy gear, etc, you can safely ski in more powder bowls, wooded areas, etc in Snowbird. If you read Spyderjon's comments, perhaps that will explain that a bit more.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| JT wrote: |
| This is what matters to me regarding a resort; if I wanted to ski off the back of Gemstock in Andermatt all I would need is good sense and the abilty to find my way down...good sense MIGHT include mean taking a guide etc etc. Nothing else would stop me but I would have to accept the risks involved. And I could go virtually anywhere I wanted. What is the definition of back country? Because if it allows the same freedom then what is all the fuss about...!!! |
I've no idea what the fuss is about? Why are there people on here who believe US lift tickets are over priced, when clearly they are not?
Also, how much does hiring a guide cost for a day for the average punter?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Fox, do you think there is no relationship between on-piste mileage and off-piste acreage? |
Rob, I would say the relationship is tenuous at best, take, for example, Mount Baldy in Alta - it has no pistes. You get to the top of the Collins lift, and ski to your left as far as you want to go - probably up to about 400m. You can then drop down into the bowl anywhere along that traverse. It is in-bounds off piste.
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Is there more off-piste in Snowbird than there is in the Trois Vallees? |
I would say there is more in-bounds off-piste in Snowbird than in the 3V. i.e. without a guide, avy gear, etc, you can safely ski in more powder bowls, wooded areas, etc in Snowbird. If you read Spyderjon's comments, perhaps that will explain that a bit more. |
I understand what in-bounds means (you're only allowed to go where the resort says you can go, which is dictated by snow conditions and by the amount of work tdone to reduce avalanche risk). My question earlier referred to what work the resorts do to minimise in-bound avalanche risk.
I'm surprised you think there is only a tenuous relationship between the size of a piste network and the amount of off-piste (which is what my queastion referred to, not in-bound areas). Whenever I've been skiing there was a very strong relationship between piste and off-piste, not least because most pistes had some off-piste by their side. Is that not the same in the US? Do they put big fences down the side of all their pistes?
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Wear The Fox Hat,
Off piste instructor from the ski school about £45 pp in a group of 5 in Zermatt.
UIAGM in the same region maybe £50 pp in a minimum sized group... Ball park, I would think.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Of course there's a relationship but I reckon comparisons are meaningless. I spent a whole season in Fernie , not a large resort by any means and still was surprised when new people would take me to different stashes. Equally I've been bored within a couple of days in Les arcs when off-piste has been breakable crust or bulletproof. On the other hand if I was interested in fast cruisers i'd have been bored within a day in Fernie & happy for weeks in Les Arcs. I don't think anyone would dispute that given equal snow conditions (& perfect visibility) Europe has more to offer but snowfall reliability is a major factor and pretty soon cancels out all the size metrics in my book.
The absolute best snow I've ever skied was in Europe last season, but I've had up to 6 back to back pow days in N America so I'm happy on both continents.
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| johnboy wrote: |
| WTFH, Only £360.00 on food and drink!!! £27.00 a day. You must have been going easy on the beer. I just spent £250 for 6 days in Italy and we were half board!! |
Yeah, the price is a bit skewed because for the first 6 days we were staying room-only at a 4 star hotel, so those days, food costs were high, e.g. £10 for breakfast (but it was worth it!). The rest of the time we were in a 2 star hotel with breakfast included.
Beer at Goldminer's Daughter (Alta's best bar, IMHO) was about £1.60 a pint, so, very similar to European prices... 
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
I've no idea what the fuss is about? Why are there people on here who believe US lift tickets are over priced, when clearly they are not?
Also, how much does hiring a guide cost for a day for the average punter? |
"Over priced" is a value judgement, and everyone will have their own views on what is good value for money or not. My take is that US lift prices are more expensive than equivalent prices in Europe. That is simply a price comparision, and needs no subjective judgements about value for money. In order to make those objective price comparisions it helps to compare like with like (similar to international comparisions of the price of a Big Mac, for example) so some sort of link of prices to number of lifts or amount of uplift would be useful. And to make it a real world comparision, there should be some relationship to the way in which most people actually take ski trips, about six day's worth of skiing, for example.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| I understand what in-bounds means (you're only allowed to go where the resort says you can go, which is dictated by snow conditions and by the amount of work tdone to reduce avalanche risk). My question earlier referred to what work the resorts do to minimise in-bound avalanche risk. |
There are howitzers around the resort, which blast areas before they are opened, if there is a perceived risk. Once an area is considered safe, then you can take the line you want.
Some of these areas are gated, meaning you can only enter at certain places. This also helps prevent avalanches, and reduces the risk of people accidentally skiing off cliffs, etc.
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| I'm surprised you think there is only a tenuous relationship between the size of a piste network and the amount of off-piste (which is what my queastion referred to, not in-bound areas). Whenever I've been skiing there was a very strong relationship between piste and off-piste, not least because most pistes had some off-piste by their side. Is that not the same in the US? Do they put big fences down the side of all their pistes? |
Not really the same - having a bit of powder at teh side of a run wouldn't count as "off-piste" in the US - the runs themselves aren't marked with posts every 50m, but with signs at the top, and at places where people could get confused as to which way to go, otherwise it is open, out to the ski area boundary.
To go beyond the ski area boundary is to do what the Americans call "back-country skiing", then you are on your own, there are no routes, markers, etc, just put on your skins and get a guide.
But the good thing is that for 90%+ of holiday skiers, there is no need to get a guide, as you can get plenty of off-piste within the lift-served terrain of the resort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
To go beyond the ski area boundary is to do what the Americans call "back-country skiing", then you are on your own, there are no routes, markers, etc, just put on your skins and get a guide.
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Is it mandatory to have a guide to go out of bounds?
We seem to have moved away from ticket price comparisions into differences between US and Euro policy for off-piste 
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| "Over priced" is a value judgement, and everyone will have their own views on what is good value for money or not. My take is that US lift prices are more expensive than equivalent prices in Europe. That is simply a price comparision, and needs no subjective judgements about value for money. In order to make those objective price comparisions it helps to compare like with like (similar to international comparisions of the price of a Big Mac, for example) so some sort of link of prices to number of lifts or amount of uplift would be useful. |
But why does it matter how many lifts you have? I mean, Milton Keynes has 3 lifts, does that mean it should be considered a similar resort to one with 4 or 5?
Do you ski the lifts, or the snow?
The number of lifts only matters if you have to wait in a queue to get on one.
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| And to make it a real world comparision, there should be some relationship to the way in which most people actually take ski trips, about six day's worth of skiing, for example. |
Earlier in the thread, I posted the fact that the price difference between 6 days lift pass in Solitude and 6 days in one of the euro resorts (will need to look back to confirm where) was £12, which, to me, is not significantly more.
(oh, and while there are many arguing that the US lift tickets are more expensive, have you actually skiied there? I try to ski both the US and Europe, that's why I feel I can make comparisons and comments on both)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
Is it mandatory to have a guide to go out of bounds? |
Not mandatory at all.
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| We seem to have moved away from ticket price comparisions into differences between US and Euro policy for off-piste |
Somehow I expected that.
I was trying to show a price comparison, now that I have, people want to change the argument to try to prove that even though the numbers are similar, they don't matter!
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 14-02-06 13:31; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Are there any penalties for going out of bounds, if not, why don't more people do it..?
For example, on the Gemstock you just cowboy down some rocks and you are off the back and will end up in another valley. If, in the US, you can just duck under the ropes at the top of the lift and go out of bounds I can't see any problems between here and there. If you can't do that then that is a big minus and therefore not at all the same. And poaching 400m in great snow is a real buzz but it still isn't the same as the Grand Envers, for example, which is my fave fave route incidently.
I stay in Europe because the likes of the above routes are..well, you just couldn't account for them all..
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| If you do want to contrast European skiing with how good things are in the US, I would have thought that policy for off-piste skiing was a better place to start than ticket prices |
No, if I wanted to do that, I'd start off with snow quality, snow reliability, and snow quantity!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| (oh, and while there are many arguing that the US lift tickets are more expensive, have you actually skiied there? I try to ski both the US and Europe, that's why I feel I can make comparisons and comments on both) |
No, not skied in North America, for the reasons I posted above. But I've not skied Zermatt either, and I know how much a lift ticket costs there and with the aid of a calculator I could compare cost per ski lift with a resort that I am more familiar with. Is it necessary to actually visit a resort to know how expensive the lift tickets are?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| JT wrote: |
| Are there any penalties for going out of bounds, if not, why don't more people do it..? |
No need to - there's enough off-piste in-bounds to keep most people happy.
As for penalties - yes, there are penalties for ducking ropes - which is why the resorts have gates (even to go back country in some places) - normally the penalty is getting your ticket pulled.
The reason for the ropes is to keep those within the resort safe. If a bc skier ducks a rope, then hikes up above the resort, they may cause an avalanche into the resort. Once you go through a gate, you are on your own, to do as you wish, and they won't stop you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Is it necessary to actually visit a resort to know how expensive the lift tickets are? |
No, that's why I posted the prices in the first post - US lift tickets are not expensive, you can see that without visiting a resort! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| If you do want to contrast European skiing with how good things are in the US, I would have thought that policy for off-piste skiing was a better place to start than ticket prices |
No, if I wanted to do that, I'd start off with snow quality, snow reliability, and snow quantity! |
It's pretty good in Austria right now, and about to get much deeper in other parts of the Alps over the next few days. Maybe you could start a thread on this topic, as I'd be interested in snowHeads' experience of snow conditions either side of the Atlantic. Sadly that's not a thread I could contribute to.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar.org.uk,
My friends went to Alaska and got the worst snow in 50 years, reckoned the locals, so I think you get what you get and you ski it how you ski it.
In LP last year (Jan 18th ) we turned up on day 1 and it was rocky, then it snowed all week.
You can be lucky or unlucky. I plan to do Utah but it will lose out to the alpes quite few times before I eventually get there. That and because my buddies who went to Alaska will not go there so I'm nobbynomates...!!!
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| If you want to include the number of lifts, then I'd also want to include the number of people on the slopes, e.g. if one resort has 5 lifts, and 500 people there, that works out at 100 people per lift. If another has 5000 people and 25 lifts, that's 200 people per lift. |
Yup, compare whatever info you'd like to make it a fair comparision. Headline prices alone are not, in my opinion, a fair comparision. Good luck in getting ticket sales from whatever resorts you want to compare.
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In Andermatt there are no queues. the whole mountain was empty, and I mean empty in Jan but then so were the bars at night so....!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| JT wrote: |
rob@rar.org.uk,
My friends went to Alaska and got the worst snow in 50 years, reckoned the locals, so I think you get what you get and you ski it how you ski it.
In LP last year (Jan 18th ) we turned up on day 1 and it was rocky, then it snowed all week.
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I agree. I enjoy skiing whatever the conditions, and do my best to adapt my limited technique to whatever the snowGods throw at me.
If you want to try Utah, what about signing up for next year's Epic Academy. I'm sure WTFH would be happy to room share.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 14-02-06 13:56; edited 1 time in total
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| JT wrote: |
| In Andermatt there are no queues. the whole mountain was empty, and I mean empty in Jan but then so were the bars at night so....!!! |
I've skied 36 days so far this season, in Tignes, Val d'Isere, Les Arcs, La Plagne, La Rosiere and La Thuile. No queue lasted more than a couple of minutes, and most of them it was straight on. I sometimes wish the queues were a bit longer, as it would give me chance to rest my weary bones without looking like a complete wimp
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FAQ
