 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Aren't you referring to the cable car track? Looks like there's only reds up there to me...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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magriggs, when I was there a few weeks ago the black was lovely. The only slightly scary bit is where you drop into it - it was very cut away, but only for a few metres, so you have to side slip a little. There are the odd bits of glacier ice in places that are best missed too, but they are quite visible.
The red above the black is lovely too, but you have to ski the black to get down, the only other way is back in the Rotair cable car.
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magriggs, it is quite scary although I don't know how you can tell from the piste map. And you are committed once you start. I can't compare it to other famous black runs.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I wouldn't call it scary - just challenging. Skied it in April last year when there were a few rocks and things coming through the troughs and a few of the moguls had a collapsed a little bit. I don't think it is particularly steep, but the moguls are 'fun'. If you want steep, then try the short black from the 2430m label just left of Stand. That was so steep that I was skiing along the track at the top looking for the start and didn't even realise it was next to me due to the steep drop off! Saw somebody fall on their top turn and they slid the entire way to the bottom.
I 2nd RachelQs comment about the Red above the black - it is great fun.
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I skied it in December when it wasn't officially open and aside from the odd rock  it was very good. It's actually not that steep but it does look very impressive when you look back up from the bottom
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DM, I meant the "Rotegg" run below the reds.
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neilswingler, how do you mean you can't compare it to other famous black runs? It's not as challenging as them? That's probably for the best, I'm no expert skier 
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agavin, good grief, I think I'll give that black from 2450 a miss!
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OK, thanks peeps. I'm not sure whether your ideas of "not that steep" are the same as mine, but I'll see when I get there. I plan to ski some of the trickier black runs in Italy the week before, so I'll know whether I'm up to it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The one marked '4' from 2450 often has softer snow and more even bumps than Rotegg, so can be easier. It is marked as a red on some maps.
The main problem with Rotegg is that people cut up the bumps by traversing, so it is hard to find a line down it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Guess I'll be eating snow, then 
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magriggs, no it means I have never skied the Swiss wall or some other well known black. I would say Titlis-Stand is tougher than the average black. I would say scary in as much as if the snow is hard and you fall, there are some rocks you could head for (and some rather ineffective looking catch fencing).
From memory (7 years ago) the black bit under the Laubersgrat chair is neither as difficult nor as exposed as the Titlis-Stand piste. If you get into trouble, you can traverse out (IIRC)
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You know it makes sense.
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magriggs, one more thing. There is a good incentive for going down the black to get down from Titlis - the lift route (t-bar, chair then cable car) is extremely tedious by comparison.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The Swiss wall is much more difficult than either of the blacks in Engelberg. The 'wall' bit at the top is much steeper and deeper, and it's much longer, and I've never known the snow to be as good as it was in Engelberg.
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Poster: A snowHead
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neilswingler, true enough about traversing out. Once you're on the Rotegg you're committed...there's only one way down. Well, two, but let's discount helicopter rescues
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| magriggs wrote: |
| I plan to ski some of the trickier black runs in Italy the week before, so I'll know whether I'm up to it. |
Where would those be? There is a 3rd black from Jochpass near the right edge of the map that is a lot easier. In April it had beautiful snow on it and is very wide - so maybe warm up there 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There are some in Latemar/Obereggen, and one that runs back down the valley to Predazzo that I'm reliably informed is tricky indeed. I'll get my gf's brother to take me to the hardest places, as he's a local.
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magriggs,
Yep, once you are in, you are in... and there is no alternative... It will likely be full of moguls so they will slow you down. The only other ways down involve the glaciers... the Steinberg which is under the cable car and the Titlis which heads right from the top and ends up with a walk/taxi back to Engelberg. The most comon way down the Steinberg is easy but if you are worrying about the black you shouldn't do the glacier without a guide. And this year the crevasses have been slow to fill
What blacks on Jochpass are you talking about...? I can see where you might make things a bit more difficult for yourselves on the hill by heading right or left but there aren't any blacks there...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The thing they call the Graustock isn't pisted or posted, its a traverse for a bit of piste side steep stuff...
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There is a 12 Black from Jochpass down where it joins onto 12 Red - right edge of map if you follow magriggs, original link. You access it by going left down a track from the chairlift that comes out at the top of a big slope. Easy end of the scale for a black and made easier by being very wide. Is black on the map in the link above - and was black in April 2005 when there.
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JT, On the link above it is marked as the Graustock as you describe it. Last year it was definitely pisted and is marked as a run on the map.
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I'm looking at the map right now and can't for the life of me see that as a black.... If that is black it is in name only and as its bashed flat its a carver's paradise... so I wouldn't worry about that one magriggs
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I was there at the end of March and skied all the runs from Jochpass and they were red on the piste map...
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Oh yeah, apart from that little one...  It looked to me just an alternative to the red and just narrower...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sharkymark,
It must have a steep bit somewhere in the run but I can't for the life of me remember it....!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| JT wrote: |
Sharkymark,
It must have a steep bit somewhere in the run but I can't for the life of me remember it....!!! |
... don't worry - being steeper than the reds down there, it is also shorter, and so easily forgotten  Seriously - I have found 2 maps on the Engelberg website - one which shows it, and one which doesn't show any pistes on the Graustock other than the Reds hence the confusion. I wonder if they only piste it later in the season?
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You know it makes sense.
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The only steep bits that side would have to be off the wall and you have to traverse and stay high for quite a while to pick up a good pitch.
They can't piste that so the the run must be just back under the chair which is really stretching it IMV
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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And I am looking at two maps and one shows the Graustock 12 as black and one as red...
It makes no difference as you wouldn't regard it a difficult anyway
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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magriggs, the wigglyness on the map is irrelevent. It is not a narrow track but is always heavily mogulled. The actual difficulty will depend very much on the softness of the snow.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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"the wigglyness on the map is irrelevent."
I'll mention that to the helicopter chappies when they're winching me off the rocks
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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RachelQ,
Snow looks good, when you going back.?
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JT, not this year, unless a miracle happens. We're off to L2A in 5 weeks, and then the EOSB a few weeks after that. I think 4 weeks skiing is as much as my bank manager will allow 
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RachelQ, the piste looks fine, but that T-bar looks scary I hate T-bars...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The excitement is unbearable. I'm going to have to stop coming to this thread.
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FAQ
In the 1st week of April, it was definitely sign boarded as black at the top of the lift - and marked as black on the map, because we went hunting for it. It is on the face marked as Graustock. I will happily agree that it is not a difficult black, which I why I suggested 
