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Large, car-friendly ski area for snowboarders?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hello again!
A couple of years ago, I've consulted with you guys on a similar matter, here: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=121350 we ended up listening to the positive recommendations and visiting Flachau/Amade... and then doing that again this year too! Very Happy

Now it's time to pick the next resort, and I'm in a bit of a pickle. I have a very specific list of requirements, but I've been to every European resort that fulfills it Puzzled (to my knowledge, which is where you come in!)

Here's what we want:
- Large variety of pistes and parks: it doesn't matter if it's all one resort, several linked resorts or even separate resorts under one ski pass, what we like is being able to ride on a large variety of different pistes and backdrops, and have multiple parks at our disposal. The multiple parks is crucial, because not all parks fit our level and needs. For example, in Flachau, the Flachauwinkl absolut park was fantastic with its dedicated lift and long run, but the schladming park was terrible because it's too tight, too steep, and served only by a T-bar drag lift.
- Accessible by car without chains, and car friendly: Austrian Italian resorts we've been to have been extremely good in this sense. All resorts were reachable from Munich airport which is the best place to rent a car in Europe. Roads are always great, clear of snow and don't require any chains or AWD cars. Parking lots for free everywhere, and every resort is accessible by car from at least one side. This is important because we don't like to ski to our destination - if there's a park we want to ride 2 valleys over, rather then spend time and energy getting there, we prefer to drive there before the lifts even open, do our warm up, ride all day, and drive back when lifts close. This allows us to put maximum energy and time into the chosen destination, and not into getting there. I know this is divisive and many skiers think that's idiocy, I'm fine with being an idiot, let's not argue about this point. That's just what we want/need.
- Friendly for those staying in apartments and not hotels: we're not fans of hotels. We like to rent a quiet little apartment, cook our own food, park our car, have a smoke on the balcony. So a good resort for us would be one with ample such apartments for rent, reasonably close to the actual lifts (short driving distance is fine as long as there are parking lots), and with proper supermarkets and shops to buy stuff in, that don't close at 2 pm... For example, Canazei was terrible in this sense with a single cramped Spar, where Flachau has a good 4-5 large supermarkets to shop in.
- Good for boarders: as few drag lifts as possible, and most certainly none that are the only way to get somewhere. Modern detachable lifts. Minimal flats/uphills. For example. in Hintertux there's a place where the only way to get to the top is via a long steep T-bar. That sucks.
- Good for freestyle beginners: not that we really are beginners, but we like to take it mellow. A good resort for us is one where there are ample freestyle features of a smaller size (penken, flachauwinkl and alta badia were all nice for this. Schladmin or Arraba were not, for example)
- Good for intermediate freeriders: we don't take avalanche gear or mountain guides, and therefore we don't look for our powder in the deep backcountry. What we do, is look for places where one can ride slightly off the marked piste, enjoy some fresher softer snow, without much risk of getting lost or straying more than a short hike from the nearest piste. I call this "near piste" as opposed to "off piste" but I'm sure you get the drift by now. We did find some great opportunities for this in the Zillertal area, but not so much in Flachau and around it.
- Good, soft snow: we don't need to best powder in the world, but one thing we cannot handle is ice/hardpack and bad weather. Those just ruin everything. Some resorts that get more sun will simply go slushy, which is fine. Others have a freeze cycle and even with a fresh dusting of powder will remain incredibly icy and thus painful to fall on, and since we mostly look for freestyle opportunities, we fall a lot. So, I wouldn't want to sacrifice visibility or comfort for the absolute highest slopes and deepest powder, but definitely prefer a resort that has a good track record, good snowmaking, etc. Resorts that clock in less than 100cm at the top and have brown grass all around the pistes just won't cut it.

There are some things we don't care much for.
We don't really do apre ski, so clubs and nightlife is just a nice to have, not a need. Personally I don't drink at all. Some restaurants, shops and perhaps a spa would be nice. We don't care about the quality of instruction or rental gear, as we don't take any. We're 30 year old men with wives/girlfriends staying at home, so we need neither entertainment for kids/wifes nor places to meet future ones. In other words, we keep to ourselves and our main and only interest is the riding itself, really.
We're not too worried about pricing, though the overall cost of going to Switzerland (including car rental for example) might be too high for us to be comfortable with.

Basically, what we like is flying to Munich, renting a nice sporty car, driving 2-5 hours to the resort. Starting each day with a short drive to different slopes and areas, and possibly returning to the ones we liked most at the second half of the week. Spending our afternoons doing some shopping or sitting in a hot tub. All this without being dependent on anyone else's service or schedule (such as ski buses, shuttles, hotel dinners and so on and so forth... we like to be self sufficient and keep to ourselves).

Where we've been so far (at least 2 times in each!)
- Zillertal arena (mayhofen, hintertux etc) was overall good, bad things were visibility on some days, god-awful traffic going in. Good things were variety, parks, and nice towns with lots of shops and restaurants.
- Dolomiti superski (val di fassa, arabba, alta badia, gardena) was fantastic in terms of beginner friendly parks and huge variety but snow was not consistent (and lately it's been very bad) and it's not very convenient, as in long drive from munich and very little shops or supermarkets in the towns
- Ski Amade (flachau, hochkonig, schladming) - very good parks, especially the absolut park. Some fun runs, and great variety. very comfortable. The only complaint really is that 2 years in a row we hardly got any fresh snow, and conditions were reasonable but definitely not good.
- Not in europe, but the summit county area in Colorado (keystone, breck etc) were simply fantastic. Tons of freestyle for all levels, great snow, super car friendly, huge stores and outlet centers, world leading resorts within 30 minute drive in any direction.

Looking forward to your recommendations for new, similar areas to visit this year! snowHead
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@motig, Nice to see a well developed set of requirements! Not just a where should I go question.

I'm a skier and know nothing about parks. However, suggestions would be (in no particular order):

- Portes du Soleil; Avoriaz was one of the first snowboard meccas I believe. I imagine each station has at least one park. Staying in either Morzine or Les Gets allows swift car access to the French resorts. Swiss ones you'd be better riding to.

- Aosta Valley - allows for your car accessed visits, no idea on parks. Valley pass available.

- Valais - valley pass again, easy car accessing, etc.

Soft snow and weather? You pays yer money, you takes yer chance. Who knows?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Obviously lady weather is a feisty, unpredictable one. But I'm a data nerd (it's pretty much my job, really) and what data tells me is that looking at peak season (mid Jan to late Feb) of the last 3 or so years, there are patterns. For example, while flachau had over 100cm consistently at these times, Canazei had figures closer to 60, which has driven my choice to go to Flachau for the past 2 seasons and not return to Canazei a third time. Once can also argue that a very high, shaded, glacier area (such as Hintertux) is more prone to bad weather and visibility issues, than a low, flat and open area. Statistics aren't great but they are better than nothing in my opinion, as is anecdotal personal experience. I'm here to listen to yours wink
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Flims / Laax.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Don't kid yourself you could always get to resorts such as Arabba without chains. It all depends...... you certainly must always carry them, or sometimes be forbidden to proceed.
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Quote:

Flims / Laax.


I've heard many good things about Laax, but isn't that bound to be significantly more expensive? To put it into perspective, we normally fly into Munich (for anywhere between 200 and 400 eur pp), rent a luxury estate car (A4, 3 series etc) for about 300 eur (shared between us), get the ski pass for approx 250 eur and pay about 300-400 per person on accommodation. Food in austria and italy is normally cheaper than back home, and thus the entire trip will cost us somewhere around 1200 euro per person, on average.

The Laax pass for the same 6 days already costs about 320 euros, and I assume accommodation and food will be much more expensive as well from my limited experience of Switzerland. Adding to that we would need to either drive the 5 hours from Munich or rent the car in Zurich, which for even a decent estate can easily be 500 euros or more. If you believe I'm miscalculating, please do tell.

Quote:

Don't kid yourself you could always get to resorts such as Arabba without chains. It all depends...... you certainly must always carry them, or sometimes be forbidden to proceed.


you might be right, but on 2 consecutive years, one with some heavy snowfall, I was able to drive all around the Sella Ronda chain free with no issues. Roads were cleared early and remained mostly snow free. The only slightly snowy road was crossing from Val Gardena to Fassa on our very first day arriving from Munich, and even then not a single policeman or chain-requiring sign in sight.

It's a bit of a problem for me to carry chains as I'm arriving by air and not all rental companies carry chains, where those that do can easily charge as much as 15 euros a day for them, and I have 0 experience (or chance to practice, since they aren't even sold where I live) in putting them on. Thus I'm looking for resorts where in all but the toughest conditions I can drive up to the towns in question with as little as standard winter tires on a rental car. From my knowledge, the different resorts in the French alps being built much higher than their Austrian/Italian counterparts are much more likely to require chains or be inaccessible to cars altogether. If I'm wrong, or if you can think of big resorts that aren't like that, please do tell!

Additionally, it's not just the initial access that bothers me. In places like the 3 valleys, the linked resorts are closer by piste than by road as driving would require you to drive out of the valley and into the next one. That's no good - my goal is not to drive up and leave the car for the week, but rather to use it every day to travel to a different destination in what you could call a "Star" pattern. So good road links from one central location is the ideal.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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@motig, the Skiwelt is probably ideal for you - see http://www.skiwelt.at/en/overview-of-fun-parks-at-skiwelt.html for details of the parks and the general area. Access from Munich is excellent, and a base in Soll or Scheffau would give the easiest access to the parks. The freeride terrain is limited but if you know where to look you can find it, and the Key West area on the other side of Brixen is worth a visit. You can also access Kirchberg and Kitzbuhel on the Allstar pass for an extra €20 or so, either by road, or via Key West.

If freeride is more important, Saalbach-Hinterglemm fits the bill partially due to having Feiberbrunn on the same lift pass, and has good parks on the Leogang side with easy access from Saalbach - see https://www.saalbach.com/en/winter/activities/snowparks

Both have good free parking next to the lifts, a choice of supermarkets, good apres if you want it, and a single lift-linked area.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Thanks ousekjarr! I've been looking at Skiwelt and specifically Soll for a couple of days now. What worries me is the incredibly low snowfall figure there in the last couple of years. Top slopes didn't even reach 1 meter according to sources I could find.
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@motig, the Skiwelt is relatively low lying (but not as low as Kitzbuhel), and as with most places in Salzburgerland it has had slightly poor snowfall for the last 4-5 years. However, this being Austria where anything over 10cm is good enough for skiing, and where the pistes are bashed daily, a fall of 60cm overnight will add 5cm to the base depth on the pistes, while off piste it will be tracked out in 2 days at most. I was in Soll in January last year (Brixen and Kirchberg on 3 previous visits), and while the base was only 40cm after a slow start to the season, I was skiing in knee deep fresh snow on one day.
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@motig, a few points

1. I think you are misusing the snow depth figures (which are poor data to begin with). 1m of snow on an alpine meadow is easily enough to ski on. Less so on a rocky base. Or a glacier. Your point re patterns above only really recognises that the snowpack builds up during the season unless I misunderstand. But even the numbers are inconsistently reported. Flachau and Canzei could easily have very different measurement protocols (I have no idea). I don't think you can conclude that Flachau consistently gets more useful snow than Canazei based on that.

2. High glaciers are not necessarily more prone to poor visibility although clearly altitude tends to bring wind issues. BUt when you do have poor visibility you have bigger problems.

3. Chains. An unexpected, unforecasted super heavy fall is likely to overwhelm all infrastructures so I would not want to be without snow tyres and 4x4 or chains depending. Swiss airports will at least always provide snow tyres and, on request, chains. I would expect Munich or Austrian airports to do similar. Italian ones? no, not really!!

4. While I see your point (despite finding it weird, but hey, whatever) on driving up - I wouldn't myself use it as a constraint. E.g. if you were staying in Morzine, sure, drive round to either Prodains or Ardent to get up into Avoriaz, that's logical. Or round to Mont Chery. But to my mind requiring that capability instead of one or two lifts, is just a bit OTT. A chacun, etc.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@motig, What about the Grand Massif? Short transfer drive from Geneva, plenty of apartment style accommodation in Samoens. You can drive between the villages if you don't fancy the schlep between them on piste. Parks not particularly their 'thing' but they have a few. Prices traditionally quite reasonable in comparison. Nice big area, a few t-bars but they can normally be avoided easily. There are a few flattish cat-tracks which act as connectors in a few places, but nothing any snowboarder worth their salt can't manage, or again - they can be avoided with a bit of working around.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Reasonable snowboarders have no problems with drags either though obviously they're not ideal.



And they do deter the riff raff.... wink
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:

1. I think you are misusing the snow depth figures (which are poor data to begin with). 1m of snow on an alpine meadow is easily enough to ski on. Less so on a rocky base. Or a glacier. Your point re patterns above only really recognises that the snowpack builds up during the season unless I misunderstand. But even the numbers are inconsistently reported. Flachau and Canzei could easily have very different measurement protocols (I have no idea). I don't think you can conclude that Flachau consistently gets more useful snow than Canazei based on that.


I might be misusing the figures, but I try to base my assumption on my experience. Namely, comparing the reports I saw at different resorts to the conditions I encountered when actually visiting them.
For example, my first visit to Canazei had a reported 70 cm figure, and snow was all manmade on piste, and none of it offpiste. I'm not talking about brown patches, I'm talking about fields of brown with some white streaks on it, like what a dryslope looks like from afar. The next year, with figures well over 100 cm and new snow almost nightly, we had waist-deep powder off piste and great ridin all around. So, on consecutive years when I see reports of 30-40 cm on the top slopes in February, I feel safe to assume conditions are more like the former experience, and not the latter, being that it's the same resort.

A resort with more snow depth tells me the following things:
1. Either more snow fell there, or conditions are such that it is better preserved. Both increase the chances of having fresh snow for me when I arrive.
2. There's a thicker layer separating my board from the twigs and rocks and expensive repairs
3. There's a higher likelihood of finding places where it is safe to stray off the piste and maybe find a bit of untouched snow

Of course nothing can guarantee the visibility, weather conditions or snowfall. But I'm sure you will all agree, that it is safe to generalize that the snow in Zermatt is better than the snow in Mt. Hermon here in Israel, or even Bansko in Bulgaria? That there are more days in a season when one is pleasant to ski on, whatever your preference? I am not looking for scientifically precise predictions, but rather a general goal of improving my chances. I only get to ski 6 days a year, spending my best money on it, so any effort to decrease risk is worthwhile.

Quote:

4. While I see your point (despite finding it weird, but hey, whatever) on driving up - I wouldn't myself use it as a constraint. E.g. if you were staying in Morzine, sure, drive round to either Prodains or Ardent to get up into Avoriaz, that's logical. Or round to Mont Chery. But to my mind requiring that capability instead of one or two lifts, is just a bit OTT. A chacun, etc.


If I could stay in a town where 2 lifts will get me to hundreds of kms of pistes and parks, sure. I would agree. That's the case with Breckenridge for example. But in most cases, staying in one town and skiing to the next valley (since usually you will find parks in separate valleys/towns/areas) is not just 2 lifts. For example, in the Sella Ronda, getting from Canazei to Alta Badia is exactly half the Ronda trip which takes several hours to half a day, leaving literally no time to enjoy the fantastic park in Alta Badia, and the way is not a very pleasant one for boarders either with heavy queues and many flats. I opted to drive the 1+ hours there early in the morning, a beautiful drive, and ended up spending a full day there, with several dozen runs in the park. It's simply better use of my time - travel during non-operational hours, and make the most of my day on location. Since I cannot predict neither snow conditions nor which piste and park will fit me best, I cannot choose my accommodation to be closest to those things, so instead my tactic is to stay in as central a place as I can, and drive.

Quote:

Reasonable snowboarders have no problems with drags either though obviously they're not ideal.
And they do deter the riff raff....


I'm a 30 year old man in a 70 year old's body (no, really, severe chronic arthritis among other issues) and while with enough painkillers and Adrenalin I manage the slopes, those long, steep t-bars really take the fun out of it. It's not about being unable to handle them, skill-wise, it's about how bad of a mood they put me in. Like going to the loo and finding the seat covered in urine - you are able to wipe it but you'd rather the previous occupant did a better job of it. Confused
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@motig, honestly not trying to foment an argument snowHead - that’s a more nuanced argument but you are still using a single measurement to gauge a complex and complicated picture. I just don’t think it’s possible.

I kind of get your driving point, it’s not what I’d do but I normally get more than 6 days a year. Arguably in that situation, I might think differently.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Neither am I, by no means. Just want to make sure my point of view on this matter comes across as clearly as I can. I know some visitors to these forums will ask for the impossible - a prediction or a guarantee. I ask for neither, just for "common" knowledge and experience on where decent snow can be found with a higher likelihood in these dire times of global warming and year-by-year aweful seasons.

By the way, I know the best solution - book a flight and a car and nothing else. Pick the resort the night before, based on snowfall, and go. I romanticize this in my head, but then the control freak in me wakes up and reminds me of my deadly fear of not finding accommodation and sleeping in the car as a result, which is a real childhood trauma for me. Sleeping on a beach in the Netherlands, in a 1997 Ford Galaxy with 5 other people and luggage, is not a pleasant experience in my memory, and so I prefer to book in advance, do my research, and stay organized and well prepared.

And yeah, the 6 day a year is a driving factor here. Being able to access more pistes and parks by car means higher chances of spending those 6 days in a place I enjoy even if I did not choose accommodation ideally. This has been true several times - In the Sella Ronda I enjoyed the runs and park of Gardena much more than those of Canazei where I stayed. In Flachau, I prefered the parks and runs of Flachauwinkl. I could stay in one place and ski in a completely different one thanks to this approach, and if I had no car or bad roads to deal with I would be at the mercy of local ski-buses at best, and unable to even access this terrain at worst.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@motig, yeah, as I started, it’s nice to have a well defined problem start the thread rather than not!

I’ve had a most successful trip based Salt Lake and Park Cities on similar basis, chasing conditions based on per valley forecasts. It worked very, very well.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
motig wrote:
Quote:

Flims / Laax.


I've heard many good things about Laax, but isn't that bound to be significantly more expensive? To put it into perspective, we normally fly into Munich (for anywhere between 200 and 400 eur pp), rent a luxury estate car (A4, 3 series etc) for about 300 eur (shared between us), get the ski pass for approx 250 eur and pay about 300-400 per person on accommodation. Food in austria and italy is normally cheaper than back home, and thus the entire trip will cost us somewhere around 1200 euro per person, on average.

The Laax pass for the same 6 days already costs about 320 euros, and I assume accommodation and food will be much more expensive as well from my limited experience of Switzerland. Adding to that we would need to either drive the 5 hours from Munich or rent the car in Zurich, which for even a decent estate can easily be 500 euros or more. If you believe I'm miscalculating, please do tell.

It isn't a 5 hour drive from Munich to Laax, it should be less than 3.

You could look at staying down the valley near Chur if you are happy driving, there are also other resorts further up the valley like Obersaxen and Brigels so you might not want to get a 6 day pass in one place.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@motig, your wish to have certainty in advance about accommodation is clearly stated but it does reduce the chance of having optimum snow conditions. If there was any clear pattern of snow quality which made one area stand out, that's where we'd all be going. If you avoid peak times you will have no problem finding accommodation, especially with the flexibility which driving gives you of being able to stay outside the busiest and most expensive areas.
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Quote:

It isn't a 5 hour drive from Munich to Laax, it should be less than 3.

You could look at staying down the valley near Chur if you are happy driving, there are also other resorts further up the valley like Obersaxen and Brigels so you might not want to get a 6 day pass in one place.


How did you do that math? Munich airport to Laax is over 300 km on the shortest route. Even ignoring the border crossings, the mountain roads, possible weather, or the swiss' love of average speed cameras, when have you ever averaged more than 100 kph on German autobahns on a peak season Saturday? I've traveled out of Munich over half a dozen times and never, ever, have I had more than 10 minutes of driving that is not in heavy traffic. Based on that experience I estimate that that trip will take 5 real hours during the day and accounting for refreshment stops.

And anyway, none of that really resolves the fact that Swiss resorts are clearly way more expensive. I will look into it though, perhaps there's a compromise to be made there.

Quote:

@motig, your wish to have certainty in advance about accommodation is clearly stated but it does reduce the chance of having optimum snow conditions. If there was any clear pattern of snow quality which made one area stand out, that's where we'd all be going. If you avoid peak times you will have no problem finding accommodation, especially with the flexibility which driving gives you of being able to stay outside the busiest and most expensive areas.


Last year we booked the flight and car first (about October, before the season even started really), and booked accommodation in Flachau about 1 month in advance of our late February flight. That was a decent compromise because by then we had some data on snow levels but really doesn't help with getting any fresh snow, for that we would need to hold out until the very last moment. The problem with that is multiple:
1. Even a month prior, we had trouble finding accommodation at a reasonable price. We ended up with a very nice hotel room but at twice what we would normally pay (about 600 euro per person vs normal 300-400). There were simply no apartments left, I sent inquiries to about 35-40 of them.
2. I'm not sure what you define as peak season but I'm pretty sure that's when we travel. Usually sometime in February. Since we only get to do this once a year, we need to make sure we get the best snow, not fall/spring snow but proper winter.
3. Since I'm from Israel, a non EU country, sometimes just the bureaucracy involved in booking accommodation can take well over a week. Most apartments require a deposit by bank transfer and that has taken me 3-4 days to complete in the past. So that's another nail in the late booking dream's coffin, really rolling eyes
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@motig, I’m a little surprised that accomodation admin is a problem? We rent apartments out in Chamonix and have had Israeli clients with no remarkable issues, afaicr.

Y’see also on dates, I’d say January was typically most properly winter. I’d avoid (in France) school holidays so that means much of Feb and early March.
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Well, you don't see their experience do you? Laughing
You head over to the bank, to first of all discover it is open only for 45 minutes on 3 random days of the week. After camping out on the sidewalk and getting fired from work, you manage to get in, to be told that the one clerk who has any concept of doing intl. money transfers is out this month, and no one else in that branch can deal with anything of the sort. Eventually, bearded and tattered you hunt that Fitzwilliam down. After 3 grueling hours, you complete the required forms in triplicate, to find out they are simply sent to a centralized office dealing with all foreign currency affairs, so that clerk's knowledge is simply "where those forms are". After 10 business days, you get a call from said foreign currency office that there's an issue with your form. That's as apt a description as it gets in dealing with our banks for the purpose of transferring money outside of the country - and I haven't even touched the topic of tariffs. I had to pay a speeding fine in Austria of 20 euros, and paid 30 more for the transfer.

I've had occasions where apartment owners in Austria told me specifically: "we normally require a deposit, but since for Israeli customers it's such a hassle we will waive that". I am dead serious! Confused

January is usually a bit of a problem for me. Wife's birthday smack in the middle of the month and she doesn't like the cold, snow, sport, or any combination of the three. So I can only head out late Jan at best - usually I pick somewhere around Feb 20th and it seems to work out crowd-wise but I can't say we had great weather in any of our recent trips, except for Colorado in 2015.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Chamonix.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@motig, February is definitely the main season, and almost all of the main countries sending visitors to Austria have a major holiday then - Austria and Bavaria have Fasching between 10-17 Feb 2018, the rest of Germany has a week of holiday in the first or second week, the UK has the half term holiday between 10-17 Feb, all of the Netherlands has a week sometime in February, Denmark has a week in the 2nd or 3rd week depending on the region, and so on.

Surely there is a company in Israel who are offering better service in forex than the banks? How about https://isratransfer.com/individuals/ - I know nothing about them, but it seems there are some alternatives. I'm in the UK and use Revolut - they're not yet licenced in Israel, but they're trying to expand and if they ever do get approval then they are an excellent option.
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Is Japan an option? Great snow and boarder territory.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
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motig wrote:


A resort with more snow depth tells me the following things:
1. Either more snow fell there, or conditions are such that it is better preserved. Both increase the chances of having fresh snow for me when I arrive.
2. There's a thicker layer separating my board from the twigs and rocks and expensive repairs
3. There's a higher likelihood of finding places where it is safe to stray off the piste and maybe find a bit of untouched snow

Of course nothing can guarantee the visibility, weather conditions or snowfall. But I'm sure you will all agree, that it is safe to generalize that the snow in Zermatt is better than the snow in Mt. Hermon here in Israel, or even Bansko in Bulgaria? That there are more days in a season when one is pleasant to ski on, whatever your preference? I am not looking for scientifically precise predictions, but rather a general goal of improving my chances. I only get to ski 6 days a year, spending my best money on it, so any effort to decrease risk is worthwhile.


Actually I disagree here. A snow sure resort that holds it's snow well does not always - or even often - mean it gets lots of snow. See here: https://www.weathertoski.co.uk/top-10s/top-10-snowiest-ski-resorts-europe

Your 1st and 3rd points DEFINITELY do not follow on from a deep snow pack. Number 2 could, but what's far more important is what's under the snow. I've happily skied 20cm on grass, and been nervous skiing 1m over scree/rocks. Your point about soft snow is relevant too: I'll take a lower resort with lovely slush over a wind-scoured icy hardpack glacier any day!

With that in mind + our park requirement:

- Lax is by all accounts the best resort for freestyle in the Alps
- Westendorf (in SkiWelt)
- Montafon (Schruns)
- Morzine/PdS
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@motig, true (I don’t see their issues) but going by many other clients ... - their pain becomes our pain! (Not a problem usually, unless they are stupid, we are here to help).

In a hassle free world, if i were you, I’d be thinking last week January. Although my personal likings also include spring skiing.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
clarky999 wrote:

Actually I disagree here. A snow sure resort that holds it's snow well does not always - or even often - mean it gets lots of snow. See here: https://www.weathertoski.co.uk/top-10s/top-10-snowiest-ski-resorts-europe

Your 1st and 3rd points DEFINITELY do not follow on from a deep snow pack. Number 2 could, but what's far more important is what's under the snow. I've happily skied 20cm on grass, and been nervous skiing 1m over scree/rocks. Your point about soft snow is relevant too: I'll take a lower resort with lovely slush over a wind-scoured icy hardpack glacier any day!

With that in mind + our park requirement:

- Lax is by all accounts the best resort for freestyle in the Alps
- Westendorf (in SkiWelt)
- Montafon (Schruns)
- Morzine/PdS


Agreed on most points. There isn't a direct relationship between ability to maintain snow and snowfall, but there's some correlation nonetheless. Of course on the piste, when the ground is soft and clear a smaller layer is enough, I meant more off the piste - depending on the size of the rocks and growth there, a thicker layer of snow translates directly to your ability to ride there versus sticking only to the marked pistes. I'm not sure I get what you're saying otherwise though. Eventually, on the lower, warmer resorts and pistes if there's snowfall, even decent amounts at night, it will often melt quite quickly and not do much for the underlying ice sheet, at least from my experience. The resorts that seem to have the most consistent good snow are ones which are high, cold, dry, and get a lot of snowfall, and those usually excel in all parameters (depth, fall, length of season etc). In the Colorado Rockies for example you can see a very clear pattern between Breckenridge and Keystone, two very close resorts - usually both will get snow on the same day, but Breck will get loads more of it. There are certain environmental and geographical factors that have an influence on these issues, relative to whatever's going on in the sky.

One thing I could not agree more with: I would definitely take soft slush over icy windswept sheets. Any day, any time. I actually quite like riding on slush, or surfing, really. snowHead
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@motig, as you loved Summit County so much have you considered another North American trip? Boarding and freeride seem to be more popular over there, the snow conditions tend to match your preferences and most resorts assume that their guests will arrive by car.

One option could be to build up a road trip in the Canadian Rockies: you could knock up an awesome itinerary from a selection of resorts like Banff, Kicking Horse, Fernie, Panorama, Kimberly, etc - maybe even travelling as far as Revelstoke and other resorts in that area.

Another possibility, although I've not yet been there myself, would be to stay in or near Salt Lake City and drive to a different resort each day.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@motig, to elaborate, a number of the most snow sure resorts in the Alps actually don't get that much snow - think around ~6m/season. I prefer a lower resort that gets more snow but might melt/soften quicker than a resort so high and cold that a snowfall a month ago sticks around, but as cold hardpack. At least in winter - come April everywhere should be getting nicely soft.

A good example here in Austria is Kühtai vs Axamer Lizum. Less than 50kms between them, though Kühtai gets noticeably less snow but is much higher and holds it longer in poorer quality (IMO - lots of people have the opposite idea of what good piste conditions are to me!).

I think you can say similar things about some of the high French resorts. Val d'Isere/Tignes average around 6m a season, and the fact it's high and cold enough to hold it suggests to me you'll be skiing a fair amount of hardpack there. Parts of the Arlberg average over 10m a season at 1600m - so you have a better chance of skiing good soft snow, whether that's fresh powder or softening corn/slush.

I imagine that applies to the PdS/Morzine/Avoriaz (typically about the snowiest resort in France) too compared to Val Thorens, Tignes, etc.

On the offpiste part, sure the more/deeper the better, but like I said it's what's under the snow that's important here. When I said "I've happily skied 20cm on grass, and been nervous skiing 1m over scree/rocks." I was referring to offpiste.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
On the chains issue -- do what we do -- forget traditional tire chains. Instead, before you go, find a big hypermarche like Carrefour or a big tire repair/sales outlet near the foothills of the Alps, and spend 70 euros for "tire socks" or the webbed nylon grip enhancers. Michelin makes good ones, and you can put them on in 3-4 minutes at a turnout. They also come with latex gloves that go up the sleeve of your coat to protect it.

Even if you don't use them, if you don't open them and keep the receipt you can return for a refund on the way back.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Jonny Jones wrote:
@motig, as you loved Summit County so much have you considered another North American trip? Boarding and freeride seem to be more popular over there, the snow conditions tend to match your preferences and most resorts assume that their guests will arrive by car.

One option could be to build up a road trip in the Canadian Rockies: you could knock up an awesome itinerary from a selection of resorts like Banff, Kicking Horse, Fernie, Panorama, Kimberly, etc - maybe even travelling as far as Revelstoke and other resorts in that area.

Another possibility, although I've not yet been there myself, would be to stay in or near Salt Lake City and drive to a different resort each day.


I have stayed in SLC and done different resorts each day -- if you have never been to Snowbird or Alta (I think they finally allow boarding...) or Park City you are in for a treat -- huge snowfalls many ears. We hit Alta, Snowbird, Solitude, Brighton and Park City in just one week.

Very easy, and I'll bet there are buses with car parks to Big and Little Cottonwood Canyons. And, hey, there's not much nightlife in SLC thanks to the LDS (Mormons)...
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
clarky999 wrote:

I've happily skied 20cm on grass, and been nervous skiing 1m over scree/rocks. Your point about soft snow is relevant too: I'll take a lower resort with lovely slush over a wind-scoured icy hardpack glacier any day!


+1

I have never really got the dissing of "low" resorts in mid-season (granted snow cover can be sketchy early and late).
The weather is generally nicer, warmer, less windy, better visibility etc..
Like clarky says - 20 cm is fine for Skiing on the grass in Les Gets, but you'd want 1m80 for some of the higher bits like Avoriaz where it is rocky.

FWIW we board every weekend in the PdS, normally from PLJ ( 5 big free carparks), from here you get quick access to freeride areas like happy valley, Rochassons, Chaux des Roses, Satellite etc..
You have 3 really nice parks pretty close :Smooth Park, Happy Park and the Stash and from the ridge atop The stash you also have La Chapelle Park.
There's also nice boarder cross in Super Chatel, and its steep so you do not get idiots stopping in the middle of it like the one on Arare.
Chatel has also invested $$$ in snowmaking in recent years, so by and large its in good nick.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Jonny Jones wrote:
@motig, as you loved Summit County so much have you considered another North American trip?


In short, it doesn't make any sense to do so for one week and I can't go on a longer trip this season. A flight ticket to Munich will cost me between 250 and 400 USD. A flight to the west coast will be north of 1000 USD, and add to that an extra day at each end of the trip since it's a 20+ hour flight time (no direct flights to Denver and such) and the impact on physical ability due to jet lag and exhaustion and you've got yourself an aweful week, not a treat. I know, because I do these for business purposes all the time, and I've already told my boss I will not fly to NA for less than 2 weeks because it's just not worth the trouble.


clarky999 wrote:

@motig, to elaborate, a number of the most snow sure resorts in the Alps actually don't get that much snow - think around ~6m/season. I prefer a lower resort that gets more snow but might melt/soften quicker than a resort so high and cold that a snowfall a month ago sticks around, but as cold hardpack. At least in winter - come April everywhere should be getting nicely soft.

A good example here in Austria is Kühtai vs Axamer Lizum. Less than 50kms between them, though Kühtai gets noticeably less snow but is much higher and holds it longer in poorer quality (IMO - lots of people have the opposite idea of what good piste conditions are to me!).

I think you can say similar things about some of the high French resorts. Val d'Isere/Tignes average around 6m a season, and the fact it's high and cold enough to hold it suggests to me you'll be skiing a fair amount of hardpack there. Parts of the Arlberg average over 10m a season at 1600m - so you have a better chance of skiing good soft snow, whether that's fresh powder or softening corn/slush.

I imagine that applies to the PdS/Morzine/Avoriaz (typically about the snowiest resort in France) too compared to Val Thorens, Tignes, etc.

On the offpiste part, sure the more/deeper the better, but like I said it's what's under the snow that's important here. When I said "I've happily skied 20cm on grass, and been nervous skiing 1m over scree/rocks." I was referring to offpiste.


I think you and I are really in the same mind-set here. Ability to maintain snow is definitely not a good metric by itself, only when combined with average historical snowfall. Combine those two together, with a decent sample size, and you have the following: "which resort, over the past X years, has consistently had lots of snow throughout the season?" So at the very least if there are any resorts that are good on both metrics, and I believe there are, you can pretty much scientifically say these are the resorts where conditions are more likely to be good. Not guaranteed, but more likely. So to the point of this post - these are the resorts I'm looking for! The ones that have above average snowfall every year, the ones that have above average base depth every year, the ones that have their season open earlier than others and close later than others because snow falls earlier, later, and more often there...

And I definitely agree with you again that I'd rather have a lower resort with softer snow and some sun than a high glacier with hardpack and blinding wind. I've done both, and there's nothing that ruins a ski holiday for me more than icy hardpack. Not all the queues, crowds, costs, drag lifts in the world can be worse than an entire week of icy hardpack riding, scraping my edges on every turn, muscles cramped and buttocks clenched in fear of the inevitably painful next crash. So that is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by asking all of you for recommendations.


Pasigal wrote:

On the chains issue -- do what we do -- forget traditional tire chains. Instead, before you go, find a big hypermarche like Carrefour or a big tire repair/sales outlet near the foothills of the Alps, and spend 70 euros for "tire socks" or the webbed nylon grip enhancers. Michelin makes good ones, and you can put them on in 3-4 minutes at a turnout. They also come with latex gloves that go up the sleeve of your coat to protect it.

Even if you don't use them, if you don't open them and keep the receipt you can return for a refund on the way back.


Well, I definitely won't rent them from the rental company as they're about 10 euros per day. I know I can buy a cheap set that should suffice for a week for about 35 euros and I will do that if the weather forecasts indicate it's needed, and I don't want to spend much on them because there's no way I can take them back home with me, they'll be left in the car for the next occupant... but on the high french resorts I know from other's experience that driving is not advisable, and even if you do it's just in and out, not much driving around to do there, so I don't think those would fit my bill. In any way I will be looking at all the recommendations here on a map and see which seem to work and which do not.
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Mayrhofen ?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@pablito69, The OP has already been to Mayrhofen and is asking for suggestions for somewhere else.
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@motig, chains - not worth it in Austria unless you know that your accommodation requires them for access. Most villages are well under 1000m, and the roads are generally cleared fast enough that winter tyres alone will be OK because they run in the valleys and don't have steep slopes. Last year we drove from Soll to Salzburg with 10cm of overnight snow on the road and with snow falling heavily all the way, and we did it in 2 hours compared to the normal 90 minutes. The only delay was in passing two coaches which had stopped to fit chains in a stupid place, and while the coaches may have needed them, we didn't.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Yeah, that's my impression from 4 ski vacations in Austria as well, and as I've said I've also had 2 in the Dolomites without any need for chains. I've never had, or needed chains before and I've been doing this for quite a few years, but I do know that in France they are quite often needed and even then not always sufficient which is the reason behind my aversion to French resorts. What clarky999 mentioned earlier, regarding how the higher resorts report deep snow but are in fact often very hardpacked and icy is another - but on the other hand, I keep hearing that no-one in the alps gets more snow than the French and Swiss resorts and due to our rather low rate of success with Austria in recent years it has made me wonder if I should try out venturing further west, at least to the Arlberg region if not to France itself, hence this lengthy discussion snowHead
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@motig, I often drive to different resorts in the French Alps in a FWD car with winter tyres. I have chains in the car as they are required by law but the last time I used them was about 5 years ago when I made the mistake of parking on a slight slope and needed the chains to get moving.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Pasigal wrote:
... as you loved Summit County so much ...... if you have never been to Snowbird or Alta (I think they finally allow boarding...) or Park City you are in for a treat -- huge snowfalls many ears. We hit Alta, Snowbird, Solitude, Brighton and Park City in just one week. ...

You may be confusing Alta with Taos. I was there when hell froze over, but it has not yet done so at Alta. In any case, the OP would find Alta hard (it's not steep enough for novice / park boarders) and Snowbird is hardly a park oriented place. They'd likely find it small and incomprehensible. I had to think hard to remember where the "park" thing is - it's way down the bottom of Emma. Trick snowboarding isn't really what Snowbird is about. You see few snowboarders in the tram when it's groomed, and they're mostly novices. The clientele changes when it dumps, although they're not heading for the parks. Certainly SLC is good for driving around, or using the bus.

--
I'd say the OP is over thinking it.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
You're probably right about Snowbird -- was just thinking that staying in SLC gives you a lot of options to drive around and get lots of good snow. I'm a skiier not a boarder, so glad that Alta's still fighting the good fight. Park City has lots of terrain parks, I believe.
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