 Poster: A snowHead
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Indeed, so the Ryanair message that flight cancellations are caused by staff leave is economical with the truth. A cynical attempt to make customers think they were being let down by pilots, rather than senior managers?
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This, whilst a union view, sums up the sitch reasonably clearly.
https://ialpa.net/ialpa-analysis-of-ryanair-pilot-numbers-crisis/
CG
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Charliegolf, thanks, that looks, on the face of it, a well reasoned and evidenced explanation of how this farce arose.
Unlike the inconsistent blarney, rhetoric and hubris coming from Ryanair.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@foxtrotzulu,
I disagree. Ryanair said very clearly that it was down to a change in leave rules and, AFAIK, they have never tried to blame the current situation on the pilots themselves.
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Agreed they haven't directly blamed pilots...but their statement blames several factors for the fall in their flight punctuality performance...eg
'a combination of ATC capacity delays and strikes, weather disruptions and the impact of increased holiday allocations to pilots and cabin crew'
No mention that they had a couple of years notice of the change in annual leave year, to be consistent with the rest of Europe. No mention of significant numbers of their pilots leaving to join a rival.
Disingenuous statement, which implies anyone but themselves are to blame. So much for their slogan 'Low Fares Made Simple'. How about 'Waahhh...why is it always us?'.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@intermediate,
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A cynical attempt to make customers think they were being let down by pilots, rather than senior managers?
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@intermediate,
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Agreed they haven't directly blamed pilots
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They haven't even implied they were let down by pilots. By all means, criticise Ryanair for what they do wrong but if you start making stuff up like that then you are hardly in a position to point the finger at them.
As for your comment that they didn't mention all sorts of other things in their press release, then that's absolutely true but it's hard to know where you start/stop the blame cycle. ATC, bad weather, holiday allocations are probably the most direct and immediate causes but underpinning those are several other factors that may include losing pilots to another airline - which was caused by Norwegian trying to build market share - which was caused by x, which was caused by y. Also, let's be realistic... This was a press release. They are bound to want to portray the problem in the least damaging light.
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| Quote: |
They haven't even implied they were let down by pilots. By all means, criticise Ryanair for what they do wrong
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What they have stated categorically though, over and over, is that they do not have a pilot shortage or problem. Well they can't crew their sectors: they have aircraft, they have ground crew (and cabin staff AFAIK), they have fuel and ATC slots. Why can't they crew them? Oh, drivers airframe, cabbying for the use of...
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| Charliegolf wrote: |
| Quote: |
Indeed, so the Ryanair message that flight cancellations are caused by staff leave is economical with the truth. A cynical attempt to make customers think they were being let down by pilots, rather than senior managers?
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This, whilst a union view, sums up the sitch reasonably clearly.
https://ialpa.net/ialpa-analysis-of-ryanair-pilot-numbers-crisis/
CG |
Has this article now been pulled? The link takes me to a 404 and a search of the site doesn't bring anything up (except IALPA refuting the claim they helped bring about the crisis).
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@midgetbiker, me too. I thought I was going mad!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| Charliegolf wrote: |
| Quote: |
Indeed, so the Ryanair message that flight cancellations are caused by staff leave is economical with the truth. A cynical attempt to make customers think they were being let down by pilots, rather than senior managers?
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This, whilst a union view, sums up the sitch reasonably clearly.
https://ialpa.net/ialpa-analysis-of-ryanair-pilot-numbers-crisis/
CG |
Has this article now been pulled? The link takes me to a 404 and a search of the site doesn't bring anything up (except IALPA refuting the claim they helped bring about the crisis). |
Pity as made for interesting reading.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| Charliegolf wrote: |
| Quote: |
Indeed, so the Ryanair message that flight cancellations are caused by staff leave is economical with the truth. A cynical attempt to make customers think they were being let down by pilots, rather than senior managers?
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This, whilst a union view, sums up the sitch reasonably clearly.
https://ialpa.net/ialpa-analysis-of-ryanair-pilot-numbers-crisis/
CG |
Has this article now been pulled? The link takes me to a 404 and a search of the site doesn't bring anything up (except IALPA refuting the claim they helped bring about the crisis). |
Pity as made for interesting reading.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@foxtrotzulu,
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They haven't even implied they were let down by pilots.
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By specifically mentioning pilot leave as one cause of the problem, aggrieved customers may well infer that pilots are to some extent to blame. Ryanair then went on, a day or two after their statement, to make it known they're trying to 'buy back' some annual leave from pilots to help alleviate the problem. Attempting to switch the spotlight onto pilots again and away from their own shortcomings.
We're all entitled to our opinion. You think I'm making things up. I think you're being very generous to Ryanair. SnowHeads and potential customers can make up their own minds. 
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As a Ryan air client, forgive me, but I don`t care a 'flying fig' why the disruptions occur. I simply note the issues I may have when using them and factor that into my planning.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Ray Zorro, Excellent  . I particularly liked the last two paragraphs:
A Ryanair spokesperson told us that despite claims of many, many unhappy customers, the vast majority of passengers return time and time again to fly on their planes.
They added, “This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact we pay them compensation in the form of vouchers they can only use on our flights.”
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Poster: A snowHead
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| PowderAdict wrote: |
@Ray Zorro, Excellent . I particularly liked the last two paragraphs:
A Ryanair spokesperson told us that despite claims of many, many unhappy customers, the vast majority of passengers return time and time again to fly on their planes.
They added, “This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact we pay them compensation in the form of vouchers they can only use on our flights.” |
Compensation should be cash refund to a card.
Now, Insurers are forcing FYR's had by refusing to pay for flights to get home and hotel rooms because it is FYR's responsibility. No way would I ever fly with them now if I don't have an insurance backup (from my decent annual policy).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Good old Google has of course cached the IALPA document:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fialpa.net%2Fialpa-analysis-of-ryanair-pilot-numbers-crisis%2F&ie=&oe=
The figures quoted are not as straightforward as they at first seem - the "Leaver pilots since previous year" entry (J) does of course seem a little odd when it gives a total of 718.667 as it seems careless to lose 2/3rds of a pilot, but the notes clarify that this is actually the total number of years of experience they have lost rather than the number of people. So if a pilot with 20 years of experience leaves or retires, the number changes by 20, not by 1.
Ryanair have clearly got it badly wrong, and aren't exactly a shining beacon of customer and staff relations, but I suspect the IALPA document was torn down because it misrepresented the situation fairly badly. The press release suggestion that Irish airlines got an unfair advantage from using a different start date is simply perverse. The article in the Independent is not exactly a paragon of press accuracy either - clearly less people fly in the winter, so less aircraft and thus less crew are needed, and airlines recruit both permanent and contract staff to cover this accordingly, so those signing up to an airline will be very aware of whether they have a job for 12 months per year or whether it is for 6. Some will be very happy with that, and will have chosen that career for that reason. The EMA staff shouldn't be surprised that there is no work for them - but the company is at least offering them positions it has elsewhere if they want to take on more work than was planned. What the article doesn't say is whether they could do this in 2-3 day blocks, with flights home at staff rates, which could make it attractive to some people, and could help Ryanair with staff retention.
Pilot hours are restricted, as the IALPA document says, to 900 hours annually and no more than 100 hours per month, so in theory it is possible to work the full quota for 9 months and then take 3 months off. The concept of "annual leave" is irrelevant - this is not a 9-5, Mon-Fri job where you can decide to take a day off. Staff rotas are worked out weeks if not months before in most cases, and cover for illness or other unavailability is built into the system, as are standby crews for breakdowns and other problems.
In passing, I try to avoid Ryanair because of their poor approach to customers, but when they get it right it works well. When they get it wrong, it tends to be a big problem, and the UK press are only too keen to drag them down especially as they are a "foreign" company forever suspected of cutting corners and working to lower standards than the UK would impose, despite this all being regulated at a European level.
I had a 4.5 hour delay in a flight back from Berlin a few months ago, on a day trip for business. This meant that instead of arriving back at 1930, it was after midnight when I'd had a 4am start for the outbound leg (which was flawless). There was no communication from Ryanair, no meal voucher (no desk or indeed staff on site), and no details of compensation offered on departure. However, I completed the claim form on their website, and 10 days later had full payment. The experience wasn't wonderful and full of wonderful fluffy customer service goodness, but the standby crew who flew in to pick us up were welcoming, apologetic, helpful and efficient in getting us home with the minimum of hassle. Would I use them again? I'll still avoid them if I can, but where they're the only airline flying to the destination to meet my schedule, I'll use them. Out of 6 flights this year, one was delayed badly, and the others were flawless. I've flown with EasyJet much more often, and they have a similar punctuality record but without the same level of unpleasant approach to customers, so that is my preference for most EU flights.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
despite this all being regulated at a European level
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they have form though, for getting special dispensation for being granted an additional 6-12 months to conform to European regulations, compared to other airlines, "because it would hurt their business model". vaguely recall having to show full final fares rather than headline rates with a bazillion add-on costs was one of them.
one would assume the other airline that's based in ireland didn't have the same issues realigning from the Irish year to the calendar year? And if they did, presumably it didn't take 2 whole years for the excrement to hit the fan?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ousekjarr, thanks for a very balanced and informative post.
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Pilot hours are restricted, as the IALPA document says, to 900 hours annually and no more than 100 hours per month
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Curious as to the point when logging 'pilot hours' starts and ends. Is it their personal arrival at and departure from airports? Or when they embark and disembark aircraft? Or something else?
Is it applied consistently by all airlines?
I bet snowHeads know!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| intermediate wrote: |
@ousekjarr, thanks for a very balanced and informative post.
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Pilot hours are restricted, as the IALPA document says, to 900 hours annually and no more than 100 hours per month
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Curious as to the point when logging 'pilot hours' starts and ends. Is it their personal arrival at and departure from airports? Or when they embark and disembark aircraft? Or something else?
Is it applied consistently by all airlines?
I bet snowHeads know! |
Brakes off -> Brakes on
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I've flying Ryanair for the first time in a very long time next weekend. I'm not impressed so far! Did online check in last night and my family of four has been randomly allocated separate seats all over the plane, despite the "seat planner" showing 4 seats together.
It appears I *HAVE* to pay extra to choose a seat (per seat per flight) if we want to sit together??
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| intermediate wrote: |
@ousekjarr, thanks for a very balanced and informative post.
| Quote: |
Pilot hours are restricted, as the IALPA document says, to 900 hours annually and no more than 100 hours per month
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Curious as to the point when logging 'pilot hours' starts and ends. Is it their personal arrival at and departure from airports? Or when they embark and disembark aircraft? Or something else?
Is it applied consistently by all airlines?
I bet snowHeads know! |
I asked a pal who flies for Virgin and he books off the 'Hobbs' meter, which is engine running time. Seems sensible as he is definitely at work when they fire the donkeys up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| kitenski wrote: |
I've flying Ryanair for the first time in a very long time next weekend. I'm not impressed so far! Did online check in last night and my family of four has been randomly allocated separate seats all over the plane, despite the "seat planner" showing 4 seats together.
It appears I *HAVE* to pay extra to choose a seat (per seat per flight) if we want to sit together?? |
There are lots of people on social media reporting this latest means of extracting money! I had to pay extra to ensure I sit next to my Aunt on our upcoming trip. RA will only allow her to be seated in a couple of places because of her mobility issues and I really need to be next to her.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@intermediate, this section of the regs hopefully makes it clear:
| https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/easa_ftl_rules_regulation_83_2014_only.pdf wrote: |
ORO.FTL.210
Flight times and duty periods
(a) The total duty periods to which a crew member may be assigned shall not exceed:
(1) 60 duty hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(2) 110 duty hours in any 14 consecutive days; and
(3) 190 duty hours in any 28 consecutive days, spread as evenly as practicable throughout that period.
(b) The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member shall not exceed:
(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;
(2) 900 hours of flight time in any calendar year; and
(3) 1 000 hours of flight time in any 12 consecutive calendar months.
(c) Post-flight duty shall count as duty period. The operator shall specify in its operations manual the minimum time period for post-flight duties |
Duty time is from reporting for duty until signing off, so a pilot who commutes 2 hours to the airport for a 0600 flight probably left home at 0300. In theory they could be on duty for up to 13 hours, but in Europe with short flight sectors it is unlikely to be more than 10 hours, so they may be done around 1500, and be home at 1700. In that time, they may have flown 4-6 sectors on the shorter routes, for a total of 5-6 hours flying - the 30 minute turnaround times typical of Ryanair, EasyJet et al are designed to get the maximum use out of the airframe, but also the maximum use out of the crews.
Makes you wonder why so many pilots live in Bishops Stortford, 10 minutes away from Stansted...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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"I asked a pal who flies for Virgin and he books off the 'Hobbs' meter, which is engine running time. Seems sensible as he is definitely at work when they fire the donkeys up."
Hobbs is generally used for 2 reasons: to record engine hours for maintenance; and to bill users of rental aircraft.
Under the law, flight time is logged between the moment the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight (so taxying to the runway, but not to the maintenance hangar); and the moment is stops moving under it's own power after a flight.
Crew duty time is the time between, 'turn up to plan for the flight' and 'ending the duty day'.
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If you've ever had the "your crew does not have enough hours to fly you there" delay, then you'll know that whatever the metric is, they clearly don't have to be in the air to use it up.
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You know it makes sense.
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| philwig wrote: |
| If you've ever had the "your crew does not have enough hours to fly you there" delay, then you'll know that whatever the metric is, they clearly don't have to be in the air to use it up. |
Absolutely right. I've been out of crew duty time having not flown that day. Back then (military) it was a 14 hour day.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ryanair announced today more cancellations between November and March. 18000 flights affecting 400000 passengers.
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Poster: A snowHead
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yeah, i retract my original defence of them, they just cancelled some flights of mine to edinburgh
however, this caused the Mrs to reveal that she has a poo-poo ton of avois stashed away, and using them & the refund means its now cheaper to go on BA
silver linings and all......
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| intermediate wrote: |
| Ryanair announced today more cancellations between November and March. 18000 flights affecting 400000 passengers. |
Got a linky? This is Bash territory.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Found a link in the other thread via the BBC. It gives
'The service is unavailable.'
Maybe you need to pay a pound for it.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Obviously all of their potential passengers are looking at once - Google cache has the document, and here's the list (apologies for the numbering, it was in two columns on the original):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fcorporate.ryanair.com%2Fnews%2Fryanair-to-end-rostering-cancellations-by-slowing-growth-this-winter%2F&ie=&oe=
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The following 34 routes are suspended for the winter season from November to March 2018
1.
Bucharest – Palermo
18.
Sofia – Castellon
2.
Chania – Athens
19.
Sofia – Memmingen
3.
Chania – Pafos
20.
Sofia – Pisa
4.
Chania – Thessaloniki
21.
Sofia – Stockholm (NYO)
5.
Cologne – Berlin (SXF)
22.
Sofia – Venice (TSF)
6.
Edinburgh – Szczecin
23.
Thessaloniki – Bratislava
7.
Glasgow – Las Palmas
24.
Thessaloniki – Paris BVA
8.
Hamburg – Edinburgh
25.
Thessaloniki – Warsaw (WMI)
9.
Hamburg – Katowice
26.
Trapani – Baden Baden
10.
Hamburg – Oslo (TRF)
27.
Trapani – Frankfurt (HHN)
11.
Hamburg – Thessaloniki
28.
Trapani – Genoa
12.
Hamburg – Venice (TSF)
29.
Trapani – Krakow
13.
London (LGW) – Belfast
30.
Trapani – Parma
14.
London (STN) – Edinburgh
31.
Trapani – Rome FIU
15.
London (STN) – Glasgow
32.
Trapani – Trieste
16.
Newcastle – Faro
33.
Wroclaw – Warsaw
17.
Newcastle – Gdansk
34.
Gdansk – Warsaw |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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having cancelled the flights, looked at the website and it states the following
Ryanair, Europe’s largest airline today September 27th confirmed it will slow down its growth this winter (November 2017 to March 2018), by flying 25 less aircraft (of its 400 fleet) from Nov 2017. By reducing its flying schedule in this planned and controlled manner Ryanair will eliminate any risk of further flight cancellations.
These schedule changes will affect less than 1% of Ryanair customers this winter. All affected customers have received an email today offering alternative flights or full refunds and a travel voucher for a free flight. For 99% of our customers their is no change to their flights.
this implies that as well as a refund, a free flight voucher will be issued. no mention of that anywhere else, do we think that its a typo?
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| MountainIdiot wrote: |
this implies that as well as a refund, a free flight voucher will be issued. no mention of that anywhere else, do we think that its a typo? |
The BBC were stating this morning that under EU law they have to pay for an alternative flight too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@ousekjarr, @Charliegolf, and others. Thanks for explanations of how pilot duty hours are calculated and regulated. Interesting and yes, potentially some long shifts for such an important job. I'd need plenty strong coffee.
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| JoyZipper wrote: |
| MountainIdiot wrote: |
this implies that as well as a refund, a free flight voucher will be issued. no mention of that anywhere else, do we think that its a typo? |
The BBC were stating this morning that under EU law they have to pay for an alternative flight too. |
On BBC r5 last night they said it was a £40 flight voucher that had to be used by March18.
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FAQ
