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Can't insure my knee problem....seeking advice

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Morning all.

I am in a possible bit of a pickle WRT my ongoing knee problem.

Currently if I run more than 4-5 miles my left knee aches quite badly...............but apart from that it is fine

I went to the doctor about it, as I want to train for a 1/2 ironman, and he has sent me for scans and physio and scans and the outcome could be that they don't know what it is.

I await another consultation next month.

As I have now made it official with my doctor, I knew I would have to declare it with my insurance company (otherwise they would have not of paid out for anything regardless of which but of me I had hurt).

So I rang them up, and normally they say, "thanks for letting us know about that ailment, to cover it will cost and an £xx on top of your premium"

But this time they didn't.

As they do know what the cause is they won't insure my left knee.

Which is fine for normal sunny type holidays as my knee is strong and I tend not to run in 30c heat.

But in skiing where, for no fault of my own I might get wiped out by someone else and tear a ligament it is a worry.

Will "Carte niege" be a possible solution, or am I just having to take the gamble?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Whilst carte niege will get you off of the mountain and EHIC will ensure that you receive medical treatment at either free or at a reduced cost, repatriation would be at your own expense. So i guess it really depends how bad you think your knees are... but honestly, if I thought that an insurance claim based on my knees was likely, then I probably wouldn't be skiing for the season. However, to put this into context, last season I was skiing with a rotator cuff injury and subsequent frozen shoulder.
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Austrian Alpine Club might be worth checking out. Should get you off the mountain and back home.

https://aacuk.org.uk
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I'm sure the consultant will give you some indication of the issue that will normally satisfy the insurance company - I have had surgery in both knees for torn meniscus and it does not attract a higher premium.
Good luck.
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@kiteman69, where does it ache? When I start my summer running I get (I am led to believe) IT band pain on the outside of my knees after about 4kms. Încreased stretching and eventually the issue stops (new running shoes helped this year as well).

Happily topping out at 15kms now (feet hurt but that's a different issue to be resolved Happy )

Knee pain when running is hardly uncommon... and if you don't have any pain when you're not running .. I certainly wouldn't be thinking it's anything that my insureres needed to know about.
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There was another thread on this recently. They won't insure you because It's an undiagnosed condition. Your knee could to them have a 90% chance of exploding or crumbling totally for all they know.

Get it properly diagnosed and signed off by the doc and the problem goes away. To be honest I'd have probably treated it as a short term sports injury and not disclosed in the first place until there was a more serious diagnosis.
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What DOTM said in his first para.
If you have another consultation, tell them that you need a diagnosis for insurance purposes, even if is a diagnosis by exclusion (i.e. tested and investigated it, know what it isn't). In the latter case maybe you can disclose it as occasional knee pain of unknown aetiology or something similar, as you can with many other conditions - headaches, for instance, always have an option of 'unknown cause' under the screening questions. The insurance problem is always when you're waiting for tests and diagnoses. If they've done scans and tests and can't find anything significant then, if properly worded when disclosed, you should be able to get cover.
I have previously been told by insurance companies that in situations like this, or in conditions which may have multiple symptoms or generally are hard to disclose simply, they will go with whatever the GP or other medics & records say.

I think you are however doing the right thing in declaring it, as it's now on your medical records - blinking annoying as the insurance implications are.

And I get the collision issue... Or just a bad edge catch/fall. Can also be worse than just a ligament, so there is something to consider there if thinking self-insuring re the knee. As someone said above, UT's medical bills and repatriation that gets costly. Also, what if someone else is injured and tries to sue you and it's claimed that you were skiing on a bum knee? (Sorry, just thinking worst case.) Your risk to weigh up...

Hope it works out OK, knee and cover wise.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 26-07-17 10:26; edited 1 time in total
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Quote:

To be honest I'd have probably treated it as a short term sports injury


This.

+

"Hi Doc, my knee hurts when I run."

"Does it hurt any other time?"

"No."

"Don't run then".


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Wed 26-07-17 12:39; edited 2 times in total
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@under a new name, Doesn't that technically still need disclosing on the "have you sought any treatment or advice, or are you awaiting tests or appointments or results" (etc) kind of wording in insurance medical disclosures and cover? I think this is the OP's point/problem.
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@under a new name, I get the pain at the back of my knee................. I posted a thread a few months ago about Fabella's.

I will wait to see what the consultant says the next time I visit.

I just want to get a definitive answer as I am toying with booking a SH bash (I'm a virgin) but I am unsure of what to do.


Thanks all for the advice and lets see what happens
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@kiteman69, oh, I totally get that, but it's not something that I'd tell my insurers about unless my GPs face went white and he'd asked me to sit down, etc.

@Grizzler, would you tell your insurer that you'd been to see your GP about a bad cough and he'd sent a sample off for analysis (I mean, a cough can be a fatally serious indication).

My father ended up with an emergency quadruple heart bypass while on holiday in the US some years ago, with an accompanying $85,000 bill - having been to see his GP the week before they left because of chest pains (!).

His GP had sent him away saying he thought it was probably a stomach ulcer - but had sent tests off to confirm that diagnosis and exclude anything more sinister. With an appointment scheduled for after their return.

Should my father have said anything to his insurers? Clearly not... (knowing him he may even have checked whether he should with the GP).

Thankfully, when the insurers (as they invariably will) tried to wriggle out of paying out the GP had noted his initial diagnosis in patient records and was prepared to attest that in his view it was not notifiable at that time.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
There was another thread on this recently. They won't insure you because It's an undiagnosed condition. Your knee could to them have a 90% chance of exploding or crumbling totally for all they know.


Or for all kiteman69 knows.
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achilles wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
There was another thread on this recently. They won't insure you because It's an undiagnosed condition. Your knee could to them have a 90% chance of exploding or crumbling totally for all they know.


Or for all kiteman69 knows.


Yebbut with insurance ignorance is bliss. If I have a bit of a twinge and I ignore it and it turns out as a full burst appendix on holiday I'm OK because it probably wasn't notifiable - stomachy twinge being a reaonable everyday event*. If I go to the doctor I have clearly identified it as a bigger deal and if the doctor because he/she is sensible doesn't just send me away with "it's nothing to worry abouT" I have a potentially notificable/excludable condition.

Obviously if I have a severely broken leg and I strap it up, take painkillers and then seek treatment on arrival at my destination I am far the other side of the line as to whether I should have notified.

Lesson being be very careful about the questions you ask of doctors and the treatments/diagnoses you commence prior to a holiday if self insurance on the resultant risk is not an option for you.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Runners with sore knees after 4-5 miles being absolutely a "reasonable* everyday event"

(* arguably, a "to be expected" event even if @kiteman69, is experienced, fit and strong.)

"Starting to train" for an event sounds likely that it's going to involve increasing distance and intensity...and so pain quite likely to ensue.
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Hopefully you will have a diagnosis long before the skiing season and should be able to find another insurer if your current will not provide cover. If not ski specific use Carte Neige to get you off the mountain. Hopefully something easily treatable.

As a middle aged man who used to run in his 20s & 30s and was seriously advised by a knee surgeon to stop or I would need a knee replacement by 50 I do not understand the craze of middle aged men running. We are pushing the barriers for our running habits as our ancestors were generally dead by 40 and certainly not running. What are these runners going to be doing in their 70s - use scooters. You need to conserve your joints for old age & pain is a way of the body to tell you something is wrong. Cycling/walking etc are less demanding on joints and I thought that older people were advised to concentrate on strength training.

BTW I have absolutely no pain in my knees at 54. No running, squash or football for 2O years. Can ski off-piste all week without a twinge. I do have a pretty bad back & discectomy scars to prove it so do little lifting/heavy gardening/decorating to conserve that.

My view
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 Poster: A snowHead
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RichClark wrote:
Whilst carte niege will get you off of the mountain and EHIC will ensure that you receive medical treatment at either free or at a reduced cost, repatriation would be at your own expense.


If it's a busted knee, wouldn't the worst case repatriation cost be a few nights extra in a hotel and new flight, possibly a row of seats at the worst?
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@hawkesbaynz, knees seem to be funny things. Approaching 51 I'm now running 2-3 x the distance I used to. I like it. I also cycle and skate and nordic skate in winter alongside alpine. I'd defo want a 2nd opinion if someone told me to stop running (I somewhat feel that it's a bit like "don't ski bumps it's bad for your knees", no... skiing bumps badly is bad for a whole bundle of things, skiing bumps properly is no issue at all).

So I asked the internet, ... food for thought...

* "Running won’t ruin your knees and eight other truths about joint health." http://www.everydayhealth.com/news/what-joint-docs-say-about-running/
* https://www.livescience.com/36241-5-experts-answer-running-bad-knees.html
* "Running incorrectly is what hurts your knees, not running itself", http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/features/does-running-damage-your-knees#1
* http://time.com/4667098/is-running-bad-for-your-knees/ (possibly not)
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Carre Neige does cover repatriation. Always has done as far as I know. https://carreneige.com/en/our-offers/

Be slightly wary of the vehicle one though, they only cover private vehicles to your home. Rental cars they cover to the nearest drop off point...
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Themasterpiece wrote:
... If it's a busted knee, wouldn't the worst case repatriation cost be a few nights extra in a hotel and new flight, possibly a row of seats at the worst?

I thought I must be the only person who thought that. There's a limit to how much it could possibly cost you, and it's hardly something you can't afford as you already paid to get there and it's the same order as that.
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@Raceplate, carte neige though, need to check which level you have... only pointing out as it's easy to get confused if you aren't familiar.
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Do you use a foam roller on your IT Bands? If not give it a try - it may hurt like hell at first - If I was you I would see a good sports physio before bothering a doctor, a good one should be able to guide you to recovery.
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@Charliee, stretching seems to be doing the job, thanks.

Ball of foot pain is the new one.

Haven't told my insurers though Shocked
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philwig wrote:
Themasterpiece wrote:
... If it's a busted knee, wouldn't the worst case repatriation cost be a few nights extra in a hotel and new flight, possibly a row of seats at the worst?

I thought I must be the only person who thought that. There's a limit to how much it could possibly cost you, and it's hardly something you can't afford as you already paid to get there and it's the same order as that.


I really don't know how much insurance companies will try to wriggle out of things these days, but have heard horror stories in past, and it's up to each individual to assess that risk. But what if, purely to be Devil's advocate, your knee gave way whilst skiing or even just getting off a lift, and as a result you had a major fall or maybe rolled off the side of a cliff, had multiple traumatic injuries, needed expensive heli-recovery and surgery, intensive care, maybe injured someone else too... Yes, I'm being terribly dramatic. Yes, they'd have to prove the causal knee link to refuse to cover it. Yes, probably an unlikely event. But..?

As DotM notes, once you disclose to your GP it's on the records. This, as UANN asks, would indeed potentially cover going with a cough which the GP recommends testing for; at least as I see it.

In the past, many people have had holiday insurance negated and claims refused because they forgot to disclose they had antibiotics from a GP 2 years ago for, say, a minor infection now completely forgotten. I don't know if this is still a real issue - but insurers are oft generally regarded as not being terribly keen to pay out...

It depends on the policy wording too - some just say if you forget to tell us of a preexisting condition (and as I noted and also UANN did, that depends very much what is written in the notes and how that's interpreted) then we just won't cover anything arising because of or due to or in respect if that. Others would say it voids or cancels the entire policy.
Caveat insuree Sad
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@Grizzler, Philwig pretty much invariably self insures, as far as I can see.
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@Grizzler, (proper keyboard...)

1. you go to your GP with a cough. You are (stupidly) given antibiotics and send on your way. All is recorded appropriately. You don't tell your insurer. No further issues no matter what.

2.
Quote:
In the past, many people have had holiday insurance negated and claims refused because they forgot to disclose they had antibiotics from a GP 2 years ago for, say, a minor infection now completely forgotten.
Allow me to be skeptical in the absence of any evidence and any rational narrative that would explain that.

Well noted that they will (it's their business) to not pay out if they can possibly help it. But still, I am of the opinion that @kiteman69, probably should have had a written note from his GP that it was OK to NOT tell his insurers as it was almost certainly a running aggravated inflammation.

Ymmv
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@hawkesbaynz, I've heard this viewpoint before but I think it's out of date (I remember my nan making similar comments about "saving your eyes" when reading as a child...).

I have a friend who is a mechanical engineer who's line of work is developing and testing replacement hip and knee joints. For her PhD, my understanding is that her research subject was to find out whether or not it is better for your health to use your joints or rest them. Her conclusion was that use was better, although as mentioned above, it needs to be "good" use rather than "bad" use. I don't have a link to her research, but can ask if anyone is interested.

@kiteman69, this limbo stage you are in is clearly the worst bit as far as insurance is concerned, but you have enough time to resolve it before the winter. When I spoke to my physio and GP about ski insurance when I was having treatment for my knee, their opinion was that it was all a big scam as in a lot of cases, including mine, there is no loss of strength or function in the joint and so no reason for it to behave any differently to anyone else's, and therefore no reason to require additional premiums or exclusions. I used Fogg, disclosed the diagnosis and physio treatment to them, told them what the doctor had said and they insured me for no extra cost. Their deluxe cover is about £26/week (and also covers off piste without a guide), though I never had to claim so have no experience of them from the pointy end Cool
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@Scarlet, sound.
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under a new name wrote:
@Raceplate, carte neige though, need to check which level you have... only pointing out as it's easy to get confused if you aren't familiar.

Seems you're the one who's not familiar. Carre Neige is the daily policy bought with the lift pass, which is the relevant cover for the OP as he is talking about holiday insurance cover for a bash. That's why my link is to Carre Neige. It is the easily confused/unaware who refer to Carre Neige as Carte Neige because they don't realise that there is also a Carte Neige annual policy available from the tourist office or ESF/racing club and it is much cheaper if you ski more than about 3 weeks a season. The underwriter and coverage for both is the same AFAIK but good luck to you in finding the full policy for Carte Neige online in English. French links here: http://www.ffs.fr/federation/licence-carte-neige
P.S. They both cover repatriation.
P.P.S They both also cover you in all neighbouring countries to France which, like repatriation, very few people seem to realise. Sorry, Austria lovers.
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You know it makes sense.
Another options is to cover off the repatriation with an ADAC membership, and along with the EHIC you are going to be pretty well covered.
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@Raceplate, looking at the link it seems you have to be a club member. Have you any experience buying from the UK?
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@Raceplate, The underwriters are not the same for Carre Neige and Carte Neige. You can see the English version here, it is also at the bottom of the "Garanties-d'assurance" page linked from your link.

I have been told that Carte Neige only covers repatriation from France for French citizens living abroad.
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AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
@Raceplate, looking at the link it seems you have to be a club member. Have you any experience buying from the UK?

Yeah I know that's what the link implies. It's not true. It's a little convoluted but a percentage of the Carte Neige fee goes to the local racing club. Therefore, by purchasing it you become a donator/member by default. You can buy it from the local tourist office/ESF office/Club des Sports, depending on the resort. At one time the online link also said you needed a local medical certificate clearing you to ski but that was BS too. I think that only applies to the higher level coverage for active racers. The "seasonnaire" Carte Neige from the tourist office does not require that. I buy mine from La Tania tourist office every year.
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philwig wrote:
Themasterpiece wrote:
... If it's a busted knee, wouldn't the worst case repatriation cost be a few nights extra in a hotel and new flight, possibly a row of seats at the worst?

I thought I must be the only person who thought that. There's a limit to how much it could possibly cost you, and it's hardly something you can't afford as you already paid to get there and it's the same order as that.


You're possibly correct - potentially a few grand if you're particularly unlucky?

Personally, i wouldn't have declared it much less gone to the GP.
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rjs wrote:
I have been told that Carte Neige only covers repatriation from France for French citizens living abroad.


That was my understanding too, happy to be wrong though. This link https://carreneige.com/static/images/doc/tableau-garanties-cn-en.pdf implies that full repatriation is covered. That's good to know!
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rjs wrote:
@Raceplate, The underwriters are not the same for Carre Neige and Carte Neige. You can see the English version here, it is also at the bottom of the "Garanties-d'assurance" page linked from your link.

I can't be bothered to go through all the small print but I'm pretty sure the ultimate reinsurer (ok if we're being picky the underwriter and reinsurer are slightly different roles and I should have said reinsurer which is the critical one) for both is QBE Europe Ltd. I stand to be corrected. I deal with QBE in my current business but there are two brokers/underwriters in the chain before them and QBE are effectively invisible to the people who buy the policies. You will see the QBE logo on both Carre Neige and Carte Neige websites so I'm sure they are the ultimate reinsurer.

rjs wrote:
I have been told that Carte Neige only covers repatriation from France for French citizens living abroad.

That's an interesting one but I think it's incorrect. As a Brit, I have used Carte Neige for "repatriation" from St Jean de Maurienne to my temporary "home" in La Tania which saved me a €260 taxi bill without any argument. I then asked for repatriation to Geneva airport in my hire car because my arm was in a sling and they wanted it to be dropped off at the nearest hire car office with them paying the drop off fee. Time was short and I couldn't be bothered to argue so I took the sling off and drove myself. I got the impression though that if I had a season ending injury such as the OP's knee concern they would have covered repatriation to my permanent home, wherever. It's all a bit more complicated for me though because I'm officially resident in Qatar, not the UK.

Logically, if the repatriation only applies to French citizens, then the policy should only be available for sale to French citizens and that is not the case. If you buy the "seasonnaire" Carte Neige from the tourist office, you get an English worded policy and I'm sure I did once check if it covers repatriation because I was travelling alone and it did, irrespective of nationality. Again, I stand to be corrected.
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Raceplate wrote:
rjs wrote:
I have been told that Carte Neige only covers repatriation from France for French citizens living abroad.

That's an interesting one but I think it's incorrect. As a Brit, I have used Carte Neige for "repatriation" from St Jean de Maurienne to my temporary "home" in La Tania which saved me a €260 taxi bill without any argument. I then asked for repatriation to Geneva airport in my hire car because my arm was in a sling and they wanted it to be dropped off at the nearest hire car office with them paying the drop off fee. Time was short and I couldn't be bothered to argue so I took the sling off and drove myself. I got the impression though that if I had a season ending injury such as the OP's knee concern they would have covered repatriation to my permanent home, wherever. It's all a bit more complicated for me though because I'm officially resident in Qatar, not the UK.

Logically, if the repatriation only applies to French citizens, then the policy should only be available for sale to French citizens and that is not the case. If you buy the "seasonnaire" Carte Neige from the tourist office, you get an English worded policy and I'm sure I did once check if it covers repatriation because I was travelling alone and it did, irrespective of nationality. Again, I stand to be corrected.

I'm just reporting what the president of my French club told me. It would cover repatriation from elsewhere to France fine for me but not to the UK, this is fine for me as I was using it for skiing outside France too. Mine is a competition licence but the insurance part is just the Optimum policy.
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rjs wrote:
I'm just reporting what the president of my French club told me. It would cover repatriation from elsewhere to France fine for me but not to the UK, this is fine for me as I was using it for skiing outside France too. Mine is a competition licence but the insurance part is just the Optimum policy.

I think the only criteria is where your "permanent" home is. For you, because you spend so much time there and your business is there, that is France, isn't it ?
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@rjs, I could be wrong but I suspect the insurance definition for repatriation is to take you back to wherever you came from. If you live in France and are racing in Italy, then it's logical that repatriation takes you back to France. If you live in the UK and travel out to race in Italy, then the repatriation is to the UK. Nationality is irrelevant in both cases.
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@Raceplate, My permanent home is in the UK, I usually rent the same place in France so used that address for my FFS registration. I was told that getting repatriated to the UK was a special case for the large number of French who now live in the UK, I have a French friend here in Manchester who has a FFS competition licence and can make use of this.
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@Raceplate, you totally miss my point. I posted that because it is all too easy for non-francophones who are not familiar with the systems to conflate carre- with carte- ... rolling eyes

I thought I was obvious, patently not.
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