 Poster: A snowHead
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Ok,
Take two ski resorts.
They are right beside each other with the same weather and conditions.
Is is possible that resort "A" makes better piste than resort "B" each night??
Is the quality of the piste equipment and technique used of much relevance or is piste pretty much the same regardless??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sure it's totally possible for bad snowmaking/ grooming to be worse than what the best can achieve.
Decisions such as the time they groom each run can e.g. increase the propensity of the basher to leave death cookies around and the evening groom/morning groom decision can definitely affect how bulletproof it is in the morning. Then of course there are the groomers who smoke crack and leave step ups/downs of up to a foot between passes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@dewsbury, seriously man . . . If that's an issue for you, more time with an instructor is needed! There's no such thing as "better piste", there are only 'variable' conditions. You learn and practice to enjoy all of them.
You also have to remember that it wasn't long ago that there was NOTHING BUT natural conditions. Given climate change, those of us why love harming ourselves on the white stuff may well be looking to slide in places with no tourist support.
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@dewsbury, Of course there can be massive differences. A resort I have frequented, at one point employed an excellent skier as its piste/grooming manager. The result was very well prepared pistes, smooth transitions, no steps at the edge of the piste, for want of a better description perfect pistes.
Of course this level of preparation requires good well maintained equipment, trained and motivated drivers, and costs more. Then the lift company was sold to another resort and a manager installed on a large salary with bonuses paid for saving money. The result was infrequent pisteing and poor quality pistes (steps on piste, and walls at side of piste), he bought in a different cheaper piste machine manufacturer (thereby losing all the maintenance and goodwill for the exist machines). There was also 'saving' of pistes and snow for high season 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@PowderAdict, okay so are you going to name the resort that suffered this misfortune?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Snow making or piste grooming?
I saw snow making can be quite a science, with the air/water mix, the humidity, temp etc.
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@andy1234, It started around 10 years ago, lasted for a couple of years and is back to normal now, so not fair to name them.
The same situation often occurs with any business which is sold as an investment, after having been run by people who care about the service they provide.
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Which is why the lift operating company and the piste management organisation are often two different entities in France.
As for snow making equipment, those mobile things that look like jet engines seem to produce a much icier surface than the tall cannons by the side of the piste. No science behind that, just experience.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think snow making is a little dependent on conditions. An overnight temperature of say -20 is going to produce better snow than -2.
Same goes for piste grooming. A perfectly groomed piste at 8am can be cut-up by 10am with high temperatures and lots of traffic. But with the right weather can stay in perfect nick all day.
Masque has it right. A good skier will enjoy and ski all conditions well regardless of prevailing conditions.
We are in a much better position now with extensive snow making and better piste preparation equipment, but we are still partly in the lap of the weather gods.
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+ man made snow is crap compared to the real deal. If you are overly reliant on it uou've picked the wrong resort.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
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If you are overly reliant on it uou've picked the wrong resort.
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I'd make the Dolomites an exception to that statement, I think. (In my personal experience.)
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@Hurtle, yes, I was just going to say that. The snowmaking in Alleghe this year was superb. If we hadn't have been skiing on (very wide) white strips, I honestly don't think I'd have realised is wasn't natural. It had been very cold though, which I think helps a lot.
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You know it makes sense.
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There's no such thing as "better piste"
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Well, call me a lazy punter, but for me, there is!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| chocksaway wrote: |
| Which is why the lift operating company and the piste management organisation are often two different entities in France. |
Are they? Haven't paid enough attention. They aren't in Chamonix. Or Morzine. Or Flaine . ... I think ...
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Poster: A snowHead
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@under a new name, Certainly in Tignes, the lifts are operated (not owned) by Compagnie des Alpes, in the guise of STGM, one of their 'federated companies'. The piste management and pisteurs are run by the Regie des Pistes.; not entirely sure on how they are funded, I assume a payment is made. I think it is the same in Val but can't be sure as they have had some changes in the last few years.
The CdA website used to list what they do where, but it seems to have disappeared.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@chocksaway, interesting, sort of.
Maybe I'll investigate further. My understanding in Cham is that CdA have the operating licence which includes everything.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
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There's no such thing as "better piste"
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Well, call me a lazy punter, but for me, there is!! |
Ah. You must have been spoiled by Lech and Zurs 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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No, never been to either, but day to day in the same resort, some days provide better piste conditions than either. Pathetic of me, I know. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Having had a tour of one of the La Plagne snowmaking factories control rooms (there are 3) and a demo of the various different types of nozzles and lances I can confirm snowmaking is a complex business - However, the entire snow production for La Plagne can be set to auto and/or commanded from an iPad! (It is scarily easy to make ice rather than snow)
Compagnie des Alpes current resorts are shown here https://www.compagniedesalpes.com/en/brands-and-sites#stations
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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My experience this year has left me to believe that there is a difference..A week in the dolomites (Eella Rhonda) this January with not much snow on the hills but excellent pistes followed by a week in Zell (which had had more snow) where the pistes were icy and not too great.
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One of my sons did a work placement with the pisteurs on the Pleney in Morzine, and the first 2 days were involved in snow making.
The temperature determines the water / air mix.
There are 2 basic types of cannon used on the Pleney : 12m long ones (snow lance) where the snow is made on egress, and 3m ones where the snow is made internally.
The 12m ones have 4 sets of holes .
Air comes out of one set of holes, and water from the other 3.
The outside temperature determines how many of the holes are open.
-4 = 1 set of water holes
-6 = 2 sets of water holes
-8 or less all the water holes.
So the temperature and water content will affect the size of consistency of the flakes that are formed as they fall back to the piste ( the length of these poles gives the molecules more hang time).
Normally these canons are equidistant down the piste, and the snow produced does not require lots of shoving around.
Its cheaper to have more canons than to have lots of pisties pushing it around from big piles with piste-bashers.
Can't remember too much of what he told me about how the internal ones worked, some kind of compressor and piston affair IIRC.
Much like boredsurfin says, they are controlled remotely, and in the Pleney they use a computer app, and just click on the cannons to determine the air / water mix and to turn them on and off.
Apparently fan-guns produce better snow as it can be done at warmer temperatures, but they require more energy, and you need to push the snow around afterwards.
So the snow making technology and the temperature will affect the results.
After that its down to grooming.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think one of the big factors is humidity. The amount of moisture in the air. It affects the physical properties of snow making. The drier the air the better. I think that may be one reason why snow making in the Dolomites is so reliable and such good quality, compared with the western alps.
I do have an aesthetic problem with the lances. I think they harm the character of some slopes by urbanising them and looking like street lights 
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Here is the benefits of snowmaking at around 1400m after several days of temperatures exceeding 25c (on our balcony from where this pic was taken)
the narrow strip of snow between the two snow lances had nearly disappeared yesterday afternoon, during the late afternoon and most of the evening a solitary piste machine brought all that snow you see in the centre of the picture down from storage in the woods above. The picture doesn't really show the depth of the snow which is around 3ft.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Snowmaking is computer-controlled.
The drier and colder the air, the better the fake snow.
The software developer and Mother Nature have far more influence on snow quality than the pisteur.
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