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Beginner skis -100mm waist? That's what Blister Reviews says

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi

Although I am not a beginner, I am looking for skis and the waist width of the ski is something high on my agenda.

I know that many Snowheads rate Blister Reviews very highly. However, I don't know who would agree with their view that the Rossignol Soul 7 is a great beginner ski. It certainly left me surprised.

Don't believe me, scroll down on this page:
http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/snowboard-reviews/2014-2015-blister-best-of-awards/4

More on their views on beginner skis: http://blistergearreview.com/recommended/skiing-101-the-best-skis-for-beginners

Thoughts?

It's certainly made me reconsider and I'm wondering whether to go for wider skis.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmmm.

My first comment is that the author of the 2nd article is all of 23 years old. So he has the benefit of youth perhaps but didn't grow up on skinny skis. I did so my opinion having watched the evolution of skis in recent (?!) years is a little different.

1. Rocker - on piste - has the sole effect of making the ski effectively shorter. End of (IMV).

2. Width - wider skis introduce a castoring effect - i.e. you physically have to lift yourself up against gravity - which I would argue makes it harder work. My own view is that a ski around 75mm-80mm underfoot is a good compromise.

Most of "modern" ski design seems to me to be appealing to the "freeride" constituency. Most of the skiers I see around me, even in Chamonix, might like to think they're in that, but really they're not.

So much of this is marketing crap.

I know. I am a luddite and I appreciate that for certain things rocker, etc. is helpful, but for most people I see most of the time their skis are too fat and too rockered.

YMMV.
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I suspect that Blister's definition of a beginner would cover 95 per cent of UK skiers.

Regarding waist width, if you are only ever skiing firm snow then there is little point in a wider ski. If you are skiing soft snow then an accessible wider ski might be valuable at an earlyish stage in the learning process.
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My little fella has a pair of 85mm wide Mantra jr's and now won't go back to his Stockli piste skis. Except for carving on corduroy and moguls the wider skis are better for most things
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@BobinCH, I would need to think hard about the geometry.
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Blister is based in the Western US where soft snow conditions are the general expectation and dumps over 50cm in 24 hours are not uncommon. For an athletic developing skier who has no problem with developing big edge angles in such an environment the Soul 7 would be fine - it's a ski that has been a huge success for its soft easy going nature (& actually pretty fun). For a 6 day a year skier hacking round on crowded Euro boilerplate I'd say sub optimal.

But I'm generally with the programme - I recently took a 107mm ski with me as my piste ski. It has a way wider performance envelope than my 65mm SL skis even if it lacks the Bulgarian wrestler style grip.
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@BobinCH,

My son does too, and he too doesn't like having to go to his narrower skis. That said the wider skis are not really great skis for learning performance and technique, so his coach has him on the narrower ones unless its a powder day, or they are spending a lot of time in the park.
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While the Soul7 certainly isn't the best option if you are literally just learning to snowplough, they are very soft and easy going - idiot-proof, basically - and almost anyone could have fun on them. I'd certainly recommend them to a ~3 week skier who wanted to explore more types of snow than corduroy. They're not going to do you any favours if you want to learn to carve on piste, though.

And remember Blister are based over the pond, where everyone skis all sorts of snow without the onpiste fixation we have in Europe.
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stuarth wrote:
That said the wider skis are not really great skis for learning performance and technique,
This.

I think getting on to a wider pair of skis than a more traditional piste ski (say, 80mm or less underfoot) makes it harder to develop your core skills, especially edging/carving skills.
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Also quite importantly you haven't actually read what Blister said:

Quote:

Best Skis for Beginners (which is not the same as saying, Best “Beginner’s Skis”)


Ie best of what they have tested.

Also certainly not 'one pair of skis for beginners to buy,' rather skis that beginners will have fun on.
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@clarky999, I read that bit but it's fairly open to interpretation and they hardly make it clear, it's not really different to asking "best resort for beginners". To me they're suggesting that something 112 underfoot is good for beginners, which I'm not convinced by. Sure a beginner could probably ski on them, but will it make the learning process more difficult?
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clarky999 wrote:
Also quite importantly you haven't actually read what Blister said:

Quote:

Best Skis for Beginners (which is not the same as saying, Best “Beginner’s Skis”)


Ie best of what they have tested.

Also certainly not 'one pair of skis for beginners to buy,' rather skis that beginners will have fun on.
I don't think that's what the article says. If you read their Ski 101 - Best Skis for Beginners, which is linked from the review in the OP, they make a more detailed explanation of what they think is the best ski for beginners (which they think is a soft, fully rockered off-piste ski).
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The conclusion is perhaps a little confusing as Blister are a) very detailed b) don't really review piste specific skis. That said, for me the article is pretty clear that they are talking about soft snow...

Quote:
If you keep in mind that this is a soft-snow oriented ski and use it as such, you are not going to be disappointed in the Soul 7. That is, if you break out the Soul 7 in 2-24″ of soft, relatively good snow, you’re going to have a good day on the mountain


Following up with (slightly more contentious?)

Quote:
On wind-scoured, icy groomers, the Soul 7 worked fine when subtly put on edge, but the skis would lose their edgehold (albeit in a consistent, predictable, unabrupt fashion) if I tried to set high angulation carves. And that’s basically in keeping with most other tip rockered-traditionally cambered underfoot-tail rockered ski, because of the short effective edge.


I had a great few days on the Soul 7 in Whistler during and just after a major dump of fresh snow, but then chose to switch once everything hardened up later in the week. Those who didn't could be seen bracing for a slide on pretty much every turn.

Even if 'Icy Groomers' are considered as distinct from 'Ice', from my experience the Blister Review is too forgiving in talking about the Soul 7 on that point. My own technique failings aside, it was consistent and predictable (and therefore easier to ski than something less well put together) but it was clearly not designed to work best even in hardpack, groomed conditions, becoming 'something that you can manage to get down on' rather than something that 'works'.

But it is very light, and much easier to control when the short edge isn't a factor (i.e. soft snow) than anything else I've tried in those conditions.
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Follow up: having just re-read the Blister bit on beginners skis, I would go further and say that for learning Soul 7 probably are great beginners skis, but terrible intermediate skis. They will be forgiving for someone 'just trying to get down and stay upright' but would really suck at trying to learn slightly more advanced stuff on anything but soft snow - especially edge angle stuff.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 15-03-17 13:49; edited 1 time in total
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Apologies, I hadn't read the second linked article earlier.

I guess it helps being familiar with the context of the site and their normal audience, but they're not suggesting a 112mm or fully rockered ski - but a soft 90-100mm all mountain ski (given the context of west coast North America) with some tip and tail rocker and camber underfoot.

And I'm not so sure that's really all that outlandish...

Sure, over here where focus is pretty much always on skiing well groomed pistes and learning to carve is often the be all and end all, it is.

But - ok I'm making an assumption here - if you're learning to ski in a place with more blurred lines and much less of a division between onpiste and offpiste as it's all inbounds and part of the resort, and where snow is generally better and falls more regularly, I can see *some* sense in it.

Tip and tail rocker definitely does make the tips and tails easier to slide in and out. Now that's not likely to help learning to carve*, but it certainly will make steered turns through/around chopped up fresh snow and bumps easier and, as they are keen to stress, more fun.

*Which is not the same as learning to use the edges

They do also point out:

Quote:
The firmer and smoother the snow is, the more appropriate a relatively narrow ski is to learn on, or to ski on at any ability level.


To be clear, I'm not really saying I agree with them and am playing devil's advocate to some extent. But given the context and given the emphasis on having more fun I do see where they're coming from, and I definitely see how the Soul 7 fits that bill.

PS: My earlier post sounds much more terse than I intended - probs shouldn't be posting when I'm in a rush Embarassed rolling eyes
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 Poster: A snowHead
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clarky999 wrote:
Apologies, I hadn't read the second linked article earlier.

I guess it helps being familiar with the context of the site and their normal audience, but they're not suggesting a 112mm or fully rockered ski - but a soft 90-100mm all mountain ski (given the context of west coast North America) with some tip and tail rocker and camber underfoot.

And I'm not so sure that's really all that outlandish...

Sure, over here where focus is pretty much always on skiing well groomed pistes and learning to carve is often the be all and end all, it is.

But - ok I'm making an assumption here - if you're learning to ski in a place with more blurred lines and much less of a division between onpiste and offpiste as it's all inbounds and part of the resort, and where snow is generally better and falls more regularly, I can see *some* sense in it.

Tip and tail rocker definitely does make the tips and tails easier to slide in and out. Now that's not likely to help learning to carve*, but it certainly will make steered turns through/around chopped up fresh snow and bumps easier and, as they are keen to stress, more fun.

*Which is not the same as learning to use the edges

They do also point out:

Quote:
The firmer and smoother the snow is, the more appropriate a relatively narrow ski is to learn on, or to ski on at any ability level.


To be clear, I'm not really saying I agree with them and am playing devil's advocate to some extent. But given the context and given the emphasis on having more fun I do see where they're coming from, and I definitely see how the Soul 7 fits that bill.

PS: My earlier post sounds much more terse than I intended - probs shouldn't be posting when I'm in a rush Embarassed rolling eyes


All good points - would be interesting to take 2 beginners of equal potential and put one through a Euro pistencarven experience on typical Euro hardpack with usual rental skis and an other through US all terrain learning on a softish double rockered ski in soft snow conditions. I'd bet the latter ends up the more versatile skier at say 2 or 3 weeks.
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I'm not talking about snow of a particular type or terrain of a particular type, other than recognising that beginners, by which I mean up to maybe 4 week's experience, generally learn to ski on pisted snow. I'm simply talking about developing a skills base which will underpin skiing all the mountain. I see a relatively small percentage of skiers who are able to control how much rotation/pivoting they use when they initiate each and every turn. Most skiers whack in a pivot of at least some size and that move becomes instinctive, and in some situations very unhelpful. In my mind that's not an inability to "euro-carve" (whatever the hell that is), it's just lacking a basic skill which should be developed form the first time on skis. In my experience a wider ski, especially if it has a relative short contact length because tip 'n tail rockers, makes it harder to develop the basic skill of creating turns by varying what steering elements you use from the start of the turn to the end (which would be my definition of a versatile skier). An inexperienced skier on that type of ski is going to more readily rely on a pivoted turn entry as they do not yet have the sills to balance well on their skis at the beginning of the turn and then shape the rest of the turn using an appropriate blend of steering elements.

The Blistergear 101 article makes some good points about people learning to ski, but reaches the wrong conclusion about what ski to put beginners on, IMO.
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clarky999 wrote:
Tip and tail rocker definitely does make the tips and tails easier to slide in and out.
So do snowblades.
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@rob@rar, No doubt that that many people do not learn helpful movement patterns ( & the US is bad as anywhere for the number of people balancing on their heels in some truckdriver position giving it a big shoulder heave on every turn). Personally I think the edgeability of snow must play a fairly big role in learning, nice soft groomer is a very different degree of confidence inspiring from death rattle refrozen corduroy and the more you can penetrate the less important the skinniness of the ski.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
... nice soft groomer is a very different degree of confidence inspiring from death rattle refrozen corduroy ...
Sure, everyone prefers to ski nice snow rather than nasty snow, and that is more important if people relatively new to skiing and don't yet have much confidence. But I don't think that a wide ski (with or without a short running length) makes it easier for a beginner to link nice, round turns rather than make zig-zag turns with a noticeable heel push. What you need is a relatively soft ski which bends more easily at lower speeds and doesn't pop when suddenly unloaded, and narrow enough to not require a quick and large lateral movement to get the ski on enough edge angle to begin to turn the skier (rather than the skier turning the ski). I'd say that's sub-80mm and not such a short running length that the ski pivots like it's on a sixpence (which taken to its extreme is what I dislike about snow blades).
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I don't think we are disagreeing. i don't know about running length - I haven't thought about it too much other than it being what makes some very big skis surprisingly agile on groomers. I had thought that "piste rocker" would be an advantage for beginner/intermediates in that they could commit tips early without risk of sudden grabbiness, but I can see that too much rocker, given that beginners won't be skiing long overall lengths could lead to a swivel fest in early turn development.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I had thought that "piste rocker" would be an advantage for beginner/intermediates in that they could commit tips early without risk of sudden grabbiness,
I've never seen an early stage skier struggle because they are on skis which are too turny. It's unusual to see skiers of any experience get thrown out of balance at the start of the turn because their tip grabs and the ski turns in very quickly, and when it does happen it's because the skier was already out of balance and the ski reacted accordingly.

Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
...but I can see that too much rocker, given that beginners won't be skiing long overall lengths could lead to a swivel fest in early turn development.
Yup, exactly right. Short skis allow you to get away with bad habits far more easily than long skis. Take snow blades as an extreme example. If you have a tendency to unintentionally pivot at the start of each turn then a rockered ski with a short running length is going to feed that bad habit far more readily than a ski with a regular camber and 'normal' running length. Why would you want to be on a ski which readily enables the No.1 bad habit when you are learning to ski?
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rob@rar wrote:


Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
...but I can see that too much rocker, given that beginners won't be skiing long overall lengths could lead to a swivel fest in early turn development.
Yup, exactly right. Short skis allow you to get away with bad habits far more easily than long skis. Take snow blades as an extreme example. If you have a tendency to unintentionally pivot at the start of each turn then a rockered ski with a short running length is going to feed that bad habit far more readily than a ski with a regular camber and 'normal' running length. Why would you want to be on a ski which readily enables the No.1 bad habit when you are learning to ski?


I think you're thinking too much in extremes here. Big banana rocker is clearly not a good idea, but just enough in tip and tail to be a bit more forgiving would - I think - help more than hinder/foster bad habits. Just googling for an example, one of Blister's own photos pops up: http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/2014-2015-salomon-x-drive-8-8-fs/3

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clarky999 wrote:
I think you're thinking too much in extremes here. Big banana rocker is clearly not a good idea, but just enough in tip and tail to be a bit more forgiving
Sure, all things in moderation, but it gets to the point when the tip rocker is so small that its effect is dwarfed by other factors, such as "can the skier effectively balance on the new outside ski and use the shape of the ski to create their turn". Having a modest tip rocker is going to make no difference, positive or negative, if there is an habitual and unintentional sideways push of the ski at the start of each turn. That kind of movement pattern is going to hold them back in soft snow far more than anything else if that's the only kind of turn they can make, and a dedicated off-piste ski is not going to help them make the piste to off-piste transition if they can only make zig-zag turns.
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America, especially in the West where they have very different snow, have a totally different outlook on waist width. 100mm under foot is considered narrow.
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Agreed, but a touch of tail rocker makes it a little bit easier to slide and scrub speed as you steer out of the fall line, which I don't think is a bad thing in a beginner who might anxious and struggling to commit - slowly turning in and careering out as their weight slips back and the tail hooks up.

Now maybe that immediate feedback of 'you did it wrong' is good for learning, but it's also the cause of a lot of accidents. Obviously the ideal remedy is to move to mellower terrain, but I can't help feeling that a ski with a tail that releases easily when wanted would inspire more confidence in a beginner.

*Not quite sure why I'm arguing though as you 100% are a much better and more knowledgeable instructor that I ever was!
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Old Fartbag wrote:
America, especially in the West where they have very different snow, have a totally different outlook on waist width. 100mm under foot is considered narrow.
Outlook is one thing, but the physics of boot width and ski width and body movements are the same, regardless of where you ski.
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clarky999 wrote:
Agreed, but a touch of tail rocker makes it a little bit easier to slide and scrub speed as you steer out of the fall line, which I don't think is a bad thing in a beginner who might anxious and struggling to commit - slowly turning in and careering out as their weight slips back and the tail hooks up.
Sure, although I think a soft ski achieves just the same thing (which is one of the points that Blister made that I agree with 100%). But whether the tail is firm or soft fades in importance compared to whether the skier can release the old turn by extending to balance on the new turning ski as they smoothly change edges.
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clarky999 wrote:
*Not quite sure why I'm arguing though ...!
Discussing things of interest I think is a better way to describe it wink
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rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
America, especially in the West where they have very different snow, have a totally different outlook on waist width. 100mm under foot is considered narrow.
Outlook is one thing, but the physics of boot width and ski width and body movements are the same, regardless of where you ski.

IMO. America has lost the plot....I was just giving a possible explanation. Personally, I think a narrow ski is the best way to learn the ropes.
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This has been an interesting and enjoyable read, thanks all.
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Personally, I think putting all learners on 203cm slalom skis, circa 1990 and unfitted race boots would reduce the injury rates immensely. And be most amusing for the spectators. In a bear pit sort of way.
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