 Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
@cameronphillips2000, "Carved skis mean a far greater percentage of skiers are more in control"
No. Not at all. They think they are in control. They are not. But they are carrying more speed. |
Did you ever ski in the 80s on the old skis?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@cameronphillips2000, "Carved skis mean a far greater percentage of skiers are more in control"
No. Not at all. They think they are in control. They are not. But they are carrying more speed. |
Did you ever ski in the 80s on the old skis? |
I'm pretty sure he did, as did I, and I agree with him.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Just one comment on the use of speed when skiing. There are times when you need to carry speed, such as when coming back up a hill or there is a long flat stretch. Now I've seen times where people are not going appropriately fast enough in these situations and they can cause an issue, much as a car doing an inappropriate speed on a motorway would. It is of course still the responsibility of the person passing them to keep safe but hopefully you appreciate my point.
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My one and only serious accident when skiing and I walked away dazed but unhurt was when a lady decided to pull a hockey stop right in front of me in the middle of the piste at the bottom of a dip. I had no chance and plowed straight into her, her skies did not release and as I understand it she ended up with a broken leg. Sure I was behind, but as far as I am concerned all the blame lies firmly in her court.
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In EK Solaise the schuss across from lacier across marais, in front of Datcha restaurant, to get up the hill to the rope tow can be treacherous, I've seen more than one clip and stack happen there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| In EK Solaise the schuss across from lacier across marais, in front of Datcha restaurant, to get up the hill to the rope tow can be treacherous, I've seen more than one clip and stack happen there. |
Yes, I was just looking this up - it's the Ouillette rope tow and I hated having to build up a speed which I thought was risky given the numbers on the piste. I was prepared to abandon the run if someone looked like they might be heading into my trajectory. I still didn't quite get to the start of the tow - perhaps it depends on the amount of snow in the area.
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| jabuzzard wrote: |
| when a lady decided to pull a hockey stop right in front of me in the middle of the piste at the bottom of a dip. I had no chance |
Clearly I don't know your exact circumstances but I like to think that if this happened to me then I hadn't really left a safe distance between us. I know I'm guilty of miscalculations on piste and that would be my conclusion.
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| motyl wrote: |
| jabuzzard wrote: |
| when a lady decided to pull a hockey stop right in front of me in the middle of the piste at the bottom of a dip. I had no chance |
Clearly I don't know your exact circumstances but I like to think that if this happened to me then I hadn't really left a safe distance between us. I know I'm guilty of miscalculations on piste and that would be my conclusion. |
I agree.
As I think someone said earlier in this thread, you should assume everyone on the mountain is an idiot and liable to do idiotic things. My dad said the same thing about driving. And of course people fall aswell as stopping abruptly because they felt like it.
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@jabuzzard, erm, that would have been your fault (from your description). You shouldn't be closer to a skier downhill than your ability to stop in that distance given speed & slope. I was wiped out by a snowboarder following my tracks when I stopped (at the side of the piste) and she took me out with such force both my skis remain stationary while we both slip 40m down the slope. Her excuse was "I didn't expect you to stop there", which is the same as yours. Miraculously I got away with a just a hurty shoulder.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@jabuzzard, erm, that would have been your fault (from your description). You shouldn't be closer to a skier downhill than your ability to stop in that distance given speed & slope. I was wiped out by a snowboarder following my tracks when I stopped (at the side of the piste) and she took me out with such force both my skis remain stationary while we both slip 40m down the slope. Her excuse was "I didn't expect you to stop there", which is the same as yours. Miraculously I got away with a just a hurty shoulder.
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| Quote: |
My one and only serious accident when skiing and I walked away dazed but unhurt was when a lady decided to pull a hockey stop right in front of me in the middle of the piste at the bottom of a dip. I had no chance and plowed straight into her, her skies did not release and as I understand it she ended up with a broken leg. Sure I was behind, but as far as I am concerned all the blame lies firmly in her court.
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This was your fault.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jabuzzard wrote: |
| Sure I was behind, but as far as I am concerned all the blame lies firmly in her court. |
I'm not sure you're going to do too well off the back of that, hope you're prepared for some sarky/angry responses from internet people.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@jabuzzard, definitely your fault.
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@Dr John, @motyl, I believe that Ouilette rope tow has been removed from Solaise. Part of the major lift development on that mountain last year. Should reduce ski glove wear as well as safety around that busy piste junction. 
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You know it makes sense.
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@intermediate, was still there in January. It's the tow on the way over that's been removed because the new solarise bubble finished higher than the old chair Still need the tow rope to get to the new magic carpets.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| blacksheep wrote: |
| Just one comment on the use of speed when skiing. There are times when you need to carry speed, such as when coming back up a hill or there is a long flat stretch. Now I've seen times where people are not going appropriately fast enough in these situations and they can cause an issue, much as a car doing an inappropriate speed on a motorway would. It is of course still the responsibility of the person passing them to keep safe but hopefully you appreciate my point. |
Indeed, anyone going faster than me is irresponsible and anyone going slower is an idiot.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@cameronphillips2000, "Carved skis mean a far greater percentage of skiers are more in control"
No. Not at all. They think they are in control. They are not. But they are carrying more speed. |
Did you ever ski in the 80s on the old skis? |
I'm pretty sure he did, as did I, and I agree with him. |
Maybe it's the resorts I skied during the 80s. Pistes full of 1-4 week skiers on long skis going down a mogul field in Andorra in 1988 was something to behold....
Maybe I ski in more refined areas now but most skiers seem pretty in control to me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
My one and only serious accident when skiing and I walked away dazed but unhurt was when a lady decided to pull a hockey stop right in front of me in the middle of the piste at the bottom of a dip. I had no chance and plowed straight into her, her skies did not release and as I understand it she ended up with a broken leg. Sure I was behind, but as far as I am concerned all the blame lies firmly in her court.
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This was your fault. |
Indeed - she may have been a frikkin idiot (maybe that's a neccessary addition to the code - Don't be an F I) but fault still with the poster. Though the moves you see some "ahead" skiers make you'd think they are the Wolverine or something and their superpowers will stop the many clowns behind from causing harm to them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@cameronphillips2000, must say that I felt that I saw less 'dangerous' skiers over new year in Ski Amade this year than I did over Christmas in 3V last year. In fact I generally felt that the skiers in Austria were better than I've seen in other resorts
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| kditrj2d wrote: |
| Carving skis and the type of turns that they encourage added to well groomed pistes and the accident is waiting to happen. |
Tragic accident and thoughts go out to all involved.
Is it possible the Ski Tracks app or similar, which are becoming very popular, are encouraging people to ski dangerously fast in order to post top max speeds and showboat against their mates?
I saw this first hand during recent trip where guys in my group of mixed abilities where sending screen shots of Ski Tracks max speed to their mates skiing at other resorts using a whatsapp group - this carried on the all week each time someone topped the best speed. |
I stopped using the app 3 years ago as I felt myself trying to get new maximums. |
Our group made the same decision this year. Felt we were getting too fast and also had a couple of near misses that hammered home the point that you need to be able to react to people doing all manner of odd things in front of you. I had a small child lunge across and fall directly in front of me in Whistler this year, had to take violent evasive action and really made me realize that if I'd been going too fast there could have been serious injuries.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Northernhills, yep, also stopped using it a couple of years ago. After you've recorded a few days/runs you know what sort of speed you're going, you learn by experience how big the day was. And also, quite frankly, who the hell cares exactly how many miles you've done or what speed. The only question you should be asking is did I have a good day?
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@Northernhills, @Dr John, are you really that easily incited to ski recklessly?
If so I don't not using the app will save you.
Maybe that is why we are have to ban alcohol advertising and tax sugar sweetened drinks and have speed limits on the road - people just can't help themselves...
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@Layne, I said nothing about skiing recklessly, my point was about the erroneous need to know miles/vertical/speed by recording it all on an app. I'll only let it go when the piste is deserted and the only danger is to myself, and age (and knee surgery) has tempered that tendency anyway.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Maybe it's the resorts I skied during the 80s. Pistes full of 1-4 week skiers on long skis going down a mogul field in Andorra in 1988 was something to behold.... |
Crikey, I bought my first pair of skis in Pas de la Casa in 1988. A pair of Kastle Rallye in about 180cm. I loved them. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| intermediate wrote: |
| @Dr John, @motyl, I believe that Ouilette rope tow has been removed from Solaise. Part of the major lift development on that mountain last year. Should reduce ski glove wear as well as safety around that busy piste junction. |
No it's still there and the schuss to it is still just as likely to result in a collision.
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@Northernhills, @Dr John, I found Ski TRacks quite addictive to the point where I was checking my phone whenever I was stopped mid-run waiting for others. I would like to think that I only ski fast, in control, but on the limit, when its safe to do so on wide open pistes. On reflection I feel like a bit of a 'dick' becoming obsessed with irrelevent speed metrics of Ski Tracks given the consequnces hilighted by the thread and the negative influence on the less experienced in our group.
On another point perhaps data from such apps, when available, could be used by authorities when investigating serious incidents as they do with Strava and bike computer data when pricing together events from cycling incidents.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Dr John, @bar shaker,
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No it's still there and the schuss to it is still just as likely to result in a collision.
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Oh right, thanks, I'm mixing up my Solaise tow ropes. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
My one and only serious accident when skiing and I walked away dazed but unhurt was when a lady decided to pull a hockey stop right in front of me in the middle of the piste at the bottom of a dip. I had no chance and plowed straight into her, her skies did not release and as I understand it she ended up with a broken leg. Sure I was behind, but as far as I am concerned all the blame lies firmly in her court.
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This was your fault. |
yup this was your fault
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| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
My one and only serious accident when skiing and I walked away dazed but unhurt was when a lady decided to pull a hockey stop right in front of me in the middle of the piste at the bottom of a dip. I had no chance and plowed straight into her, her skies did not release and as I understand it she ended up with a broken leg. Sure I was behind, but as far as I am concerned all the blame lies firmly in her court.
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This was your fault. |
As it would be if when driving along a road you ploughed in to the car in front which had just done an emergency stop because a small child had run in front of it. You can think what you like, but a court would find you liable.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ...maybe that's a neccessary addition to the code - Don't be an F I |
It's there already, Rule 1.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Someone needs to break out the "He's got the right of way, she's got the right of way... they've got the right of way..." YouTube dude....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@cameronphillips2000, "Carved skis mean a far greater percentage of skiers are more in control"
No. Not at all. They think they are in control. They are not. But they are carrying more speed. |
Did you ever ski in the 80s on the old skis? |
I'm pretty sure he did, as did I, and I agree with him. |
Maybe it's the resorts I skied during the 80s. Pistes full of 1-4 week skiers on long skis going down a mogul field in Andorra in 1988 was something to behold....
Maybe I ski in more refined areas now but most skiers seem pretty in control to me. |
A personal feeling is that it depends slightly on how you define control, I would agree that back in the eighties there were more skiers looking frozen and scared on mogul fields , but they generally got down without actually losing control badly however if you are talking about skiers moving at pace who would be unable to change direction or stop quickly that is more common now.
Two different forms of control and you could argue the control aspect either way, but the latter are more dangerous to their fellow skier.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My biggest concern on this type of topic, will be for my kids... a 4 to 5 stone minion being hit from behind by an adult twice their weight .... it's little doubt who could come off worse (even given the bendy bones and 'bounce-back-ability' of kids). Another reason I tend to ride defensively behind my children....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| .... As it would be if when driving along a road you ploughed in to the car in front which had just done an emergency stop because a small child had run in front of it. You can think what you like, but a court would find you liable. |
Perhaps it's more like the car in front doing an emergency stop for no apparent reason - and when you can see that the road in front of it is completely clear.
Fully agree that it is still the fault of the person behind (as on the piste) - but more understandable why some people feel differently.
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I am no expert on FIS nor motorcycle race rules, but just to try and put @jabuzzard's description in persepctive, and with a view of a situation slightly different to that of @rob@rar (who I respect knows a lot more about skiing that I do), if I was riding my motorcycle down a country lane and some idiot pulled straight out of a side turning across my path, or did an absolute slam on in front of me or pulled out to the middle of the carriageway straight across me to make a sudden right-angled left-hand turn then I'd be pretty insistent that it wasn't my fault. If I was breaking the speed limits or recklessly riding too fast for the conditions or layout then, fair enough, I'm the idiot. Trouble is, if you take that one to it's logical conculsion then half the time we should all be driving or riding at no more than 5mph!
I've had all of those above things happen to me, and try to ride defensively and cautiously enough to assume that everyone in front of me is going to do it again. But chances are, if they do, and if I walk away at all, probably with a scratched or smashed-up bike, I'll consider myself to be in the right and believe that I'd have a fair legal chance of proving that. Know friends who have proved that; often the very hard and unpleasant way 
OK, that's a road. In motorcycle racing, it's the person behind who has to take the look-out position and responsibiity, I believe. That sounds similar to the FIS rules. But on a piste, how many of the people on there are really good enough to be able to 'ride' (i.e. ski or board) to that standard of judgement, anticipation, reaction speed and ability of machine (or ski/board) control? To me that's one of problems of trying to put black and white rules and duties and responsibilities into any situation and especially to expect of people better than they are capable of. Not that we shouldn't all still aspire and try, of course.
I try my best to ski and board within my limits, but I'm not blameless either, in a technical sense, for a lot of near-misses and cursed shouts, especially on a crowded piste when I'm tired. I am not of a race or instructor standard, and I am simply not good enough sometimes, in speed of mind, strength of muscle or ability on plank(s) to avoid every situation. I've been the one doing the sudden stop or turn in front of someone coming down behind me, and I've been the one who's only very narrowly (thankfully) missed it being done to me. (The joy of quick-edging skis at that point, or the ability to put a board to the ground). Clearly people like me, and many others, should not be allowed near the white stuff, never mind anyone else on it. 
Sorry, not meant as a rant: but it just isn't clear cut to me, much as rules is rules.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think the expectation is that people ski within their limits. These limits will vary during the day dependant on slope, snow, tiredness, ability and many other things. Unfortunately like on the road some people travel too fast too close and without paying proper attention.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| .... As it would be if when driving along a road you ploughed in to the car in front which had just done an emergency stop because a small child had run in front of it. You can think what you like, but a court would find you liable. |
Perhaps it's more like the car in front doing an emergency stop for no apparent reason - and when you can see that the road in front of it is completely clear. |
The court would still find you liable. Isn't in in the nature of small children that they can pop out between cars or a blind bend or other ways of behaving unpredictably?
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@Grizzler, Your country lane side turning example isn't a good analogy. That would be akin to the FIS rule 5 - about starting off or entering the piste.
Recreation skiing isn't racing, the rules don't expect that all skiers should have levels of reaction etc. to cope with making very rapid decisions at high speed. They expect skiers/boarders to moderate their speed and manner of skiing or snowboarding according to personal ability, conditions of snow, weather and terrain and density of traffic. In other words to ski at a speed where they are in control.
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| Grizzler wrote: |
| I am no expert on FIS nor motorcycle race rules, but just to try and put @jabuzzard's description in persepctive, and with a view of a situation slightly different to that of @rob@rar (who I respect knows a lot more about skiing that I do), if I was riding my motorcycle down a country lane and some idiot pulled straight out of a side turning across my path, or did an absolute slam on in front of me or pulled out to the middle of the carriageway straight across me to make a sudden right-angled left-hand turn then I'd be pretty insistent that it wasn't my fault. If I was breaking the speed limits or recklessly riding too fast for the conditions or layout then, fair enough, I'm the idiot. Trouble is, if you take that one to it's logical conculsion then half the time we should all be driving or riding at no more than 5mph! |
I ski quite a lot and I don't see a large number of collisions. This season I've only been aware of one serious collision (which happened to involve me), so I don't think it's the case that we all have to ski around at a frustratingly slow speed for much of the time. The fear of frequent collisions is a bit overblown IMO. But as others have said, we need to ski within our limits which includes being able to change direction or speed enough to avoid somebody in front of us who can be completely unpredictable, and even irrational. To use your motorcycle down a country lane analogy, who is to say that the car in front doesn't do an emergency stop because an animal pops out from the hedgerow, or one of their tyres has a blow out? Neither situation would be the result of idiotic behaviour, neither could be easily forecast, and neither should result in being rear-ended if the person behind had left enough space for the speed they were travelling at.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 16-03-17 20:12; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A few weeks ago I witnessed just that sort of incident.
Small child on pavement made dash for freedom. Car driving under speed limit buried the brakes and stopped dead. Scooter traveling too close behind car missed the back of the car by an inch and nearly dropped the scooter in the process Scooter rider hadn't seen child and was mouthing off at car driver before pulling round and overtaking(child didn't get off pavement as mum had tight grip on reins). Scooter rider was an idiot. The problem with emergency stops is they can happen at any time and for reasons you can't always see.
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This simply sounds like a metaphor for what invariably will be the result of following the Mittyesque delusions of this toxic paper.
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FAQ
