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Instruction - Has thinking changed over last 15 years?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

Didn't look at all of the skiers, but I think the skilful ones aren't pivoting the entry to the turn, but are blending rotation in with edging at a equal rate throughout the turn


That's fair but you can't do that with your edges set can you? You need to "feather" them by flattening. You can definitely see many of them getting lower at the end of the turn then standing taller through transition.

I have to admit that the turns look like beautifully served vanilla ice cream to me. Brilliant way to get around the pistes with zero drama. Or excitement. Very useful for when conditions are difficult. Not exactly inspiring.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ref moguls, simply google Fistfull of Moguls to see not a lot has changed I reckon!! Probably easier now on shorter skis than the 204cm Force9s that were de rigeur back then!


http://youtube.com/v/lzQKDslU3Bw
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jedster wrote:
That's fair but you can't do that with your edges set can you? You need to "feather" them by flattening. You can definitely see many of them getting lower at the end of the turn then standing taller through transition.
Indeed, we don't often talk about the release phase of the turn, but it's there for each and every turn even if it almost always happens subconsciously.

jedster wrote:
I have to admit that the turns look like beautifully served vanilla ice cream to me. Brilliant way to get around the pistes with zero drama. Or excitement. Very useful for when conditions are difficult. Not exactly inspiring.
I agree. Useful for training purposes as the benign conditions (slow speed, not too steep, easy snow) should allow you to do a flawless demo, skiing with great timing and precision of movement. If you can't make perfect turns in those conditions it's time to work on your building blocks.
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@kitenski,

Ha! Loved that.
I think shorter helps a bit but skinnier is actually good in the bumps - easier to hold a narrower stance without clashing edges.
But the technique hasn't changed - it's absorbing and pivoting isn't it?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jedster wrote:
@kitenski,

But the technique hasn't changed - it's absorbing and pivoting isn't it?

As far as I know, you can do the following.
1. Going slowly....over the top, without absorption (turn on top when you get light and skis are easy to turn).
2. Turn on top with absorption (and skid down the d/hill side).
3. Check on the sides and ski through the troughs.
4. Zipper Line

What ever you do, it's about "Speed and Line"....and I only wish I was more skilled at it.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
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The speed thing is mainly about absorption - you cant control it with your skis in the air!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Here is an analysis of the subtly differing approaches taken by various National Display Teams (2011).


http://youtube.com/v/7rtzwqDeSGg

and in 2015


http://youtube.com/v/9FV7_UcBUPw


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 7-03-17 19:44; edited 2 times in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
jedster wrote:
The speed thing is mainly about absorption - you cant control it with your skis in the air!

At higher speeds, absolutely. At low speeds (low enough that you don't fly off the top), it's quite possible to ski moguls without absorption and still be in control.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Old Fartbag, I like those comparative videos, there is usually a few to look at after each Interski conference. However, do each of the national team members ski identically, in the the prescribed way dictated by their national association? I'm not sure that they do, which is why I'm not convinced that there is a significant and repeatable difference between the different national associations (especially in terms of the experience of the clients who are taught by instructors who are graduates of those associations). I've skied with a few of the BASI demo team and they don't ski in the exact same way, with some having come up through a high level competitive route, others more through the instruction route.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
@Old Fartbag, I like those comparative videos, there is usually a few to look at after each Interski conference. However, do each of the national team members ski identically, in the the prescribed way dictated by their national association? I'm not sure that they do, which is why I'm not convinced that there is a significant and repeatable difference between the different national associations (especially in terms of the experience of the clients who are taught by instructors who are graduates of those associations). I've skied with a few of the BASI demo team and they don't ski in the exact same way, with some having come up through a high level competitive route, others more through the instruction route.

I can't comment on how close this is to the teaching practices of different countries.....but I do enjoy seeing the different approaches in the display team, which may reflect, to some degree, that country's priorities.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Old Fartbag wrote:
but I do enjoy seeing the different approaches in the display team, which may reflect, to some degree, that country's priorities.
Agreed, me too. My only doubt is whether those (in the grand scheme things, subtle) differences filter through to the experience that clients get when being taught. I think it is much more likely that the priority/focus of the ski school an instructor works for influences their practice more than the association they qualified with, possibly many years previously.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
but I do enjoy seeing the different approaches in the display team, which may reflect, to some degree, that country's priorities.
Agreed, me too. My only doubt is whether those (in the grand scheme things, subtle) differences filter through to the experience that clients get when being taught. I think it is much more likely that the priority/focus of the ski school an instructor works for influences their practice more than the association they qualified with, possibly many years previously.

The best tuition I've had, has been from BASI instructors.

When in the States, the emphasis was very much on enjoyment.

In France with ESF (admittedly some time ago), it was very much - "You will learn, even if it kills you". This was borne out in Les Arcs after a big snowfall, where we went Off Piste. I was struggling to turn, so his answer was to bring me into the trees, with the comment, "If a tree is in your way, you will turn!!."
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Old Fartbag wrote:
... "If a tree is in your way, you will turn!!."
I tested that theory once. It's not true.

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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
... "If a tree is in your way, you will turn!!."
I tested that theory once. It's not true.


Toofy Grin

I could have told you that over 25 years ago.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Old Fartbag, i think some of your techniques are actually the same things.

Anyway, zipper line is the only way to ski bumps. If you can't do that, you can't ski and being unable to ski bumps is only ome symptom.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
kitenski wrote:
Interesting question, so was the last major change post "carving skis"?? ie when did tuition move away from the up/down unweighting movement? Was that the same year "shaped" skis became more main stream or did it take a bit of time to filter down?


That's what I was thinking of...

I learnt around 25 (?) years ago... on a dry slope in zummerzet... then some Uni skiing on the real thing in La Plagne and a bit more elsewhere - all in the days of the famous SX91 rear entry boots, skinny skis taller than your head... and french ski instructors telling you to ' bend ze knees' etc etc.


After a very long interval, started skiing again when ski manufacturers had the astonishing idea of designing their skis to turn - 'carving skis' - who'd a thunk of a such a mad idea

rolling eyes (perhaps due to the surge in popularity of snow boarding).
Boots had also weirdly gone back to 4 clip designs...

My BFF, lucky b@stard that he was at the time, was living/working in Paris and spending weekends and trips to Val d'Isere and had learnt to ski with Woody Woodward there...
I turn up and find I have to change my old worlde style somewhat...

1. No need to be hanging way over the front of your boots and skis to massively weight and unweight to make turns - neutral is now to be centred ( so a skate boarder apparently learns very quickly with modern skis with their balance etc).

2. Stance width is normally natural hip width apart - as opposed to the old aim of ending up legs together and ankles of your boots banging against each other in nonchalant Austrian stylee Blush

those are the main things I'd say and they lead to others - like the weight being not so heavily on the downhill ski but a bit more even in a carved turn.

Skiing with boots unclipped was one exercise to encourage staying centred...

and we spent some entertaining time on blades too - got some funny looks the two of us following Woody down La Face, all on blades...

I was so thrilled by the new skis my first pair I bought later on were a positively mad pair of Atomic Metron Xi's - around onesixtysomething long and a turn radius to make a London Taxi green with envy.

I later saw how Woody taught my wife from scratch - positively astonishing how quickly you can learn one-on-one with a good instructor and the 'new' skis.
Still snowploughs to start - but you can see how the correct technique for a good snowplough leads to a carved turn.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@coops1967, Skiing had lost it's Mojo, with young skiers leaving in droves...so the industry had to do something quick, before it became solely a sport populated by a collection of Old Farts. The result was carving skis.

All IMO.

Oh, and Woody is terrific.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, i think some of your techniques are actually the same things.

Anyway, zipper line is the only way to ski bumps. If you can't do that, you can't ski and being unable to ski bumps is only ome symptom.

Skiing steep bumps well, takes skill, balance, flexibility and lots of practice....hard to achieve with 1 week per year, 57 years on the clock and a back op.

There are those like your good self, who can let your skis do the talking.....I have to let my talk do the skiing. Toofy Grin


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 7-03-17 23:25; edited 2 times in total
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@Old Fartbag, titter
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
yebbut... We could always edge the old skis. You just got less turns in per ride.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
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1998 my 1st set of carving skis K2 fours.
I wanted a set of rossi viper s's but my mate in the shop convinced me otherwise and to get these new wide skis. I had my 1st lesson on them my 1st day out on snow in these ski. We rode the lift to the top of the mountain, at the top of the slope the instructor just said to me
"Watch me 1st, this is how we ski now"


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 8-03-17 7:31; edited 1 time in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The main thing I notice is that sufficient younger instructors have entered the profession who have grown up on twin tips and doing freestyle and who ski in a very balanced but relaxed style regardless of terrain. This contrasts with the older "retiree" instructors I see who ski with a very definite but quite rigid style.

I think there has been a benefit in open minded instructors who teach people how to rotate and even slide modern ski shapes I.e. there is more than one way to get round a corner. Blending tools dynamically is very important.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Looking at the first 2 vids I thought that they were sitting with the weight over the back of the skis ..maybe I am wrong but I wasn't taught like that ...weight more central and forward ... thigh burn comes to mind with that stance for normal mortals
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