 Poster: A snowHead
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When skiing on piste, there're piste markers to follow. And the pub at the bottom once one follows the piste marker all the way down.
But off-piste, there will be no piste markers to follow, and the "nearest pub" maybe a long way away. How to even stay upright in a featureless sea of white?
There're often no distinguishable landmark as reference to what's up vs what's down. Or what speed one is moving. And it's hard to see when the slope angle changes too.
How do you handle that? What tips you had discovered that you care to share?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You could navigate your way to the "off piste" section of the forum?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Don't ski off piste in bad visibility???
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Or follow your guides tracks. Hopefully they know where they're going and won't ski over a cliff
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Go for a gluwein in the nearest hut and wait for it to clear up, then you won't become a nuisance casualty for the emergency services! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Easy get a GPS or compass and map (which are prerequisites to Backcountry travel anyway) and follow it to the nearest hut or town. Do a quick Avy test when you change aspect and you'll be fine.
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@stewart woodward, 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@stewart woodward, takes the win. *applause*
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think someone is playing a little game with us.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Jellybeans1000 wrote: |
| Easy get a GPS or compass and map (which are prerequisites to Backcountry travel anyway) and follow it to the nearest hut or town. Do a quick Avy test when you change aspect and you'll be fine. |
Don't follow a GPS like a headless chicken. Learn to navigate your way out using map and compass. GPS should only be used either to :-
1. Find out your intial location.
2. To back up your thoughts when using map & compass.
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Ski in the trees, or somewhere with dark features to navigate by and provide contrast, like the walls of a couloir. Skiing open alpine terrain in a whiteout is frankly pretty miserable.
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You know it makes sense.
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True white out. One turn at a time. Length of nylon cord tied to the end of the ski pole like a whip. Use it to show the slope angle, then make your turn.
Very poor visibility when you are concerned about skiing over a cliff or similar. Take compass bearing in direction you want to go. Mate skis off making short turns, you shout left/right at your mate as appropriate. They stop when they get to a point where they can only just hear you. Ski to them. While you ski down they check that the bearing indicated by the GPS to the next waypoint is the same as the bearing you are intending to ski on. Also use GPS to keep an eye on the distance to the next waypoint. Then repeat until you get to the waypoint. GPS is being used as a back up to the compass so in theory you should be okay if the GPS fails.
Plan a route that keeps to slopes below 30 deg. Beware convexities that can make a slope that looks less than 30 deg on the map turn out to be steeper in reality.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If you can help it avoid it.
Ski very slowly, keep in close contact with your chums, get back to the piste asap.
I've found myself twice in a total whiteout on a glacier. The first time on a route I hadn't done before, we had to resort to skiing roped up. We made our way very slowly down and eventually popped out of the cloud as we descended. The second time we slowly GPS'ed our way down with some quite complicated navigation. The GPS belonged to the lad I was with and it was my first experience of one, I ordered myself one the next day.
While I agree with @JoyZipper, about not following it blindly and not totally relying on GPS, properly used its a fantastic tool for keeping safe.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@abc, you don't if you have half a brain. Unlike a certain (unofficial) guide I had in Val d'Isere a few weeks ago. We got lost in near zero viz on the golf itinerary in Tignes and ended up in a deep bowl we couldn't see, 20 minutes looking for a ski and 30 minutes difficult and nervous waste-deep hike/swim out. She was cocky and over-confident, I wasn't assertive enough to say no, this looks really dodgy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I would question thew wisdom of skiing off-piste in a true white out. I wouldn't do it, even in an area I knew pretty well.
If visibility is very bad you have lost one of your major senses, so it can be worthwhile trying to tune in to your other senses to (partly) make up for the deficiency. When I'm skiing in those conditions one of the things I try to feel for is that slight slowing down feeling/build up of pressure you get at the end of the turn. It helps me control my speed, knowing that I'm not coming out of each turn a bit too early, especially if I'm skiing something red steepness or steeper.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When ski touring, you may not have 100% clear weather all the time. While one doesn't set out in a total whiteout, you may find yourself in one temporarily.
Even a short venture off the piate can also find oneself in flat light if the sun goes in and out of cloud.
Sometimes, the visibility is good enough to not get lost (can see village at the bottom) but still challenging to ski in.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Many years ago during a piste lesson in Les Arcs, we found ourselves in a white out....even the local instructor wasn't entirely sure exactly where we were. He then started telling me about when he'd been caught out in one, when skiing off-piste. He said that he removed one of his gloves, threw it a few feet downhill and skied to pick it up, before gently throwing it again. He said that it was a tactic to stop him skiing over a cliff and giving an idea of steepness. I can't comment on how effective this actually is.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abc wrote: |
| When ski touring, you may not have 100% clear weather all the time. While one doesn't set out in a total whiteout, you may find yourself in one temporarily. |
@abc, I fully sympathise (as I'm sure many others do too). I've ski toured in white out conditions (sometimes in the dark by headtorch) plenty of times and I reckon the only way it can be safe(r) is by intimately knowing the terrain. Not so easy I suppose for the Alpine holiday maker accessing off piste by ski lifts, and who doesn't get a chance to walk through the area in advance.
As for the actual skiing, when you can't tell what's up or down, sometimes it just requires 'ski by the Force' Jedi intuition !
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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In Alaska last year we got caught out in a white out - guide attached a ribbon to a spare glove and threw it in front of him - skied to it and repeated the exercise countless times.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| He said that he removed one of his gloves, threw it a few feet downhill and skied to pick it up, before gently throwing it again. He said that it was a tactic to stop him skiing over a cliff and giving an idea of steepness. I can't comment on how effective this actually is. |
@Old Fartbag, it's a great technique for judging a pitch and its direction in very poor visibility and throwing a snowball can work similarly. Sometimes a slope that looks intimidatingly steep can be much less so, or a gentle looking one is revealed to have a cornice or steep rollover.
Not so sure I'd want to remove and throw a glove though. Cold hands can be dangerous.
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| Charliee wrote: |
| In Alaska last year we got caught out in a white out - guide attached a ribbon to a spare glove and threw it in front of him - skied to it and repeated the exercise countless times. |
I was also taught to use this technique on a winter skills mountaineering course. Take a bearing, throw, check bearing, walk to glove, repeat. Probably require something a lot heavier than a glove in winter in Scotland though !
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@abc, that's a rather different set of questions then...
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Throwing a marker and then making 1 or 2 turns to ski to it is not really skiing in my book. Useful 'keep yourself alive' tactic if you get caught out by the weather, but if you know conditions will require that technique I wouldn't choose to ski.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Throwing a marker and then making 1 or 2 turns to ski to it is not really skiing in my book. Useful 'keep yourself alive' tactic if you get caught out by the weather, but if you know conditions will require that technique I wouldn't choose to ski. |
I certainly got the feeling that it was very much a "Last Ditch, Stay Alive" thing, if you get caught out.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| He said that he removed one of his gloves, threw it a few feet downhill and skied to pick it up, before gently throwing it again. He said that it was a tactic to stop him skiing over a cliff and giving an idea of steepness. I can't comment on how effective this actually is. |
Your life expectancy can be measured in hours when that is the only way of making progress.
When you throw the glove and it disappears, I suspect the scale moves to minutes.
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@Old Fartbag, what happens if the glove disappears over the suspected cliff? You are then in a whiteout, on the edge of a cliff, with impending frostbite (and hypothermia).
"Better down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here", as is said...
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, what happens if the glove disappears over the suspected cliff? You are then in a whiteout, on the edge of a cliff, with impending frostbite (and hypothermia).
"Better down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here", as is said... |
I suppose it's a judgement call....and I hope I'm never in that position....it gives me palpitations just thinking about it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| bar shaker wrote: |
When you throw the glove and it disappears, I suspect the scale moves to minutes. |
If the glove disappeared because it went over a cliff, then your time is longer than it might otherwise have been. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I was on a winter skills course in the Cairngorms on the plateau a few years ago when the visibility dropped to about 10-20 metres, navigated off by compass with one person going ahead on a bearing the others checking the bearing was precise, rinse and repeat.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Many years ago during a piste lesson in Les Arcs, we found ourselves in a white out....even the local instructor wasn't entirely sure exactly where we were. He then started telling me about when he'd been caught out in one, when skiing off-piste. He said that he removed one of his gloves, threw it a few feet downhill and skied to pick it up, before gently throwing it again. He said that it was a tactic to stop him skiing over a cliff and giving an idea of steepness. I can't comment on how effective this actually is. |
Did similiar with an "aspirant" guide (just finished his 5 year PGHM contract) off piste from the Grands Montets - he knew (from repeated checking of GPS) exactly where we were but he threw a ski pole 20-30m - I guess easier to ski minus a ski pole than minus a glove with 2 ski poles! Surprisingly helpful too ski to a (relatively large) marker. Have subsequently always tried to opt for brighter coloured poles!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| mishmash wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Many years ago during a piste lesson in Les Arcs, we found ourselves in a white out....even the local instructor wasn't entirely sure exactly where we were. He then started telling me about when he'd been caught out in one, when skiing off-piste. He said that he removed one of his gloves, threw it a few feet downhill and skied to pick it up, before gently throwing it again. He said that it was a tactic to stop him skiing over a cliff and giving an idea of steepness. I can't comment on how effective this actually is. |
Did similiar with an "aspirant" guide (just finished his 5 year PGHM contract) off piste from the Grands Montets - he knew (from repeated checking of GPS) exactly where we were but he threw a ski pole 20-30m - I guess easier to ski minus a ski pole than minus a glove with 2 ski poles! Surprisingly helpful too ski to a (relatively large) marker. Have subsequently always tried to opt for brighter coloured poles! |
I did wonder when I saw the "glove" post why not just throw a pole?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SlipnSlide wrote: |
I did wonder when I saw the "glove" post why not just throw a pole? |
That's fair enough, but I was just relaying an anecdote...and it was a glove that was mentioned.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ski in the trees like Clarky999 says. If ski touring and weather is suspect I personally wouldn't have gone out in the first place. If I was in the situation with the bearing/ snowball/ glove/ cliff thing as above I'd be putting a lot of trust in my guide - I wouldn't be there without one.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| If ski touring and weather is suspect I personally wouldn't have gone out in the first place. |
Presumably the only reason that any sensible person would be off-piste in such conditions would be that the weather had turned very suddenly and unexpectedly?
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@abc, true whiteout can be VERY disorienting. I know every inch (cm?) of our mountains at the back of our place. I've been out in clag many times. The last time I was on the hill in a true whiteout (clouds moving between outstretched hand and face...) I got it badly wrong at one point, thinking we were 100m higher than we really were. No harm done, but felt very weird indeed, and elsewhere could have been fatal. There is a piste marker in Nax, which if you don't know that long orange on top of pole mean RH and short means LH, you could easily ski over a face.
We use 'moving as three' in clag. We maintain visual contact, two remain stationary, then one skis as far as number 2 can see them - number 2 shouts 'stop' as soon as visual contact gets iffy, and number 1 stops. Then number 3 skis past 2 and 1 until number 1 calls 'stop'. Then 2 skis past 1 and 3 until they too get to the edge of visual contact, at which point 3 shouts 'stop' - and so on, like a game of leapfrog. This has some good qualities. Everyone is active in route finding and hazard spotting - recognizing that over dependence on one person in times of stress is a proven risk, from the pysch studies. It eases the load on people, the last person can relax for a few moments, and this helps with tiredness, stress and risk-spotting.
Whistles are good too. My kids have them sewn into their jackets - big FOX ones, which don't ice up and give 110 dB - bloody loud and they need to be in clag.
But all of this relies on good hazard skills - gradient, snow condition, local knowledge. It's just one very useful technique.
And my kids know:
ski tracks are not a sign of intelligent life
convex hills are death traps
cornices suck
snow holes are cold but better than dying
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@valais2, these days tracks are usually indicative of speed flyers ... and therefore entirely fatal to follow without a wing... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Shut your eyes!
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Practice first in the U.K. Walking or skiing. Plenty of opportunities here for flat light and occasional white out conditions in Snowdonia, lakes, Pennines, Ireland and Scotland.
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FAQ
with 20/20 vision when it comes to commenting on off piste incidents, so just follow one of them 
