 Poster: A snowHead
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@recz, guess it's worded to make more sense to their market/readers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Very sad news. The name Lavachet is I believe an old savoyard word for avalanche. I have vague recollections of a very similar incident some years ago when I was staying in Lavachet. The pisteur in the bar that night very solemnly talked about his friend the instructor he had helped to dig out. I have no idea how they do it.
On a related subject I note that the Telegraph Ski and Snowboard newsletter came out today with the main topic "Is it safe to ski in the Alps?" and a reference to today's event. A little poor to use it quite so quickly 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This an off piste line accessible from the top of the Toviere, heading towards the avvie gates and traversing across them (the FATMAP images were exactly what I'd skied before). The entry point is super steep for the first 10-15m (I think more than 38 deg imo/from what I can remember). It's really thin there as the snow just doesn't stick. We had a couple of slides, the first set off by the guide triggering deliberately (radio check from the office confirmed no one below us) and the second from when I hit the rocks and fell, both were equivalent to slough slides.
Kev had told me this was a tough route and is rarely safe, most seasonaiires don't get a shot at it.
I'm not skiing this winter, and have been trying to avoid anything media related to snow sports... this has hit me a shock. Hope your mate is ok chocks. Glad the loss of lives wasn't higher.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A very poor report from people who should know better. It reads like they were walking past the Loop Bar.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Think La Dauphine was trying to do the best reporting yesterday in difficult circumstances, as unfortunately they're sort of use to it, and then many others simply copy n'paste and or translate for their articles 
http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2017/02/13/tignes-une-avalanche-en-hors-piste-emporte-plusieurs-skieurs
And now see WEpowder have issued a report on the stability of the snowpack
Warning: critical avalanche situation in large parts of the Alps
http://wepowder.com/forum/topic/239473
And yet on their front page they have....
The sun is shining in the Alps! Time to go touring!
All though in the full forecast they do warn about not going too steep / weak layer etc
When we were touring yesterday unaware of this latest tragic incident, but within sight of a sector where two avalanches occurred on Saturday with an ESI instructor killed, and my lucky escape of ten days ago we were talking about roll on Spring type conditions, when skiing off piste is not as stressful as it is currently.
If you're unaware then next few weeks are just bonkers busy in the French Alps and not just on the piste, putting immense pressure on instructors / guides to deliver the goods off piste.
Where we were touring yesterday (in a forest and not at all exposed) you hardly ever expect to see anyone, but was around 15 people in three different groups, one group of nine (two families) with a guide / instructor, so there was still an element of stress which can be a heuristic trap*, and I suggested rather than go to the "top", we get into descent mode before the two groups above us come down.
*factors that can increase the exposure to avalanches.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| tarrantd wrote: |
| ....On a related subject I note that the Telegraph Ski and Snowboard newsletter came out today with the main topic "Is it safe to ski in the Alps?" and a reference to today's event. A little poor to use it quite so quickly |
It may cause a few parties to reflect and keep out of trouble.
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@Weathercam,
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And yet on their front page they have....
The sun is shining in the Alps! Time to go touring!
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Must admit I read that also and thought it kind of misplaced and insensitive
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote]Steiger and Bonnevie. [\quote]
Obviously a complete side-issue, but the Snowboarding recommendations in Steiger and Bonnevie are completely clueless, verging on the hilarious at times.
To be fair to them, it was written a long time ago, when snowboarding was relatively new.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A lot of people being caught. Prior to yesterdays dreadful events I was aware of 3 acquaintances who've been involved in slides and been lucky in the last few days
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I congressmen much off piste and have never be trained on How to do so as safely as possible. I have read and watched a lot though.
Something this accident has raised my awareness of though is the bottom of the slope. Clearly an avi ditch means all of the snow collects in the required area, however this makes it far more difficult fora rescue if you do get taken to the bottom in a slide.
Is this part track training? I'd imagine, to the trained eye, an avi ditch means 'slides happen above here' and if you're caught in slide above here, there's going to a lot of snow in one confined space where it stops.
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You know it makes sense.
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@cameronphillips2000, there's been a lot of good advice posted in the Off Piste section after a recent incident I had and what lessons could be learnt from it. Trouble is as per recent incidents involving very experienced people, it can be a bit of a lottery unfortunately but you can reduce the risks, though at the expense of not skiing nice big steep faces.
For the past three years I've been more than content when skiing out of the trees to only ski mellow gradients, but then I still got caught out
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 14-02-17 11:21; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@cameronphillips2000, terrain traps don't need to be big or manmade to be deadly. I think a cubic meter of compressed snow weighs about a ton. If you're buried, for example, to a depth of three metres that is a huge weight that needs to be dug out and shifted by hand shovelling compressed snow. It wouldn't take a large natural feature to trap avalanche debris to a depth of three or four metres if it is a big slab which has slid. Always something to think about when you are choosing a route.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @cameronphillips2000, terrain traps don't need to be big or manmade to be deadly. I think a cubic meter of compressed snow weighs about a ton. If you're buried, for example, to a depth of three metres that is a huge weight that needs to be dug out and shifted by hand shovelling compressed snow. It wouldn't take a large natural feature to trap avalanche debris to a depth of three or four metres if it is a big slab which has slid. Always something to think about when you are choosing a route. |
interestingly, they refer to the trap as earthworks on quite a few of the reports. One had described the trap, designed to protectorate below, had tragically likely led to the decreased chance of survival yesterday. Its all so terribly sad.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I think a cubic meter of compressed snow weighs about a ton. If you're buried, for example, to a depth of three metres that is a huge weight that needs to be dug out and shifted by hand shovelling compressed snow. |
A cubic metre of water weighs 1 tonne, ice weighs very slightly less and powder snow weighs as little as 100kg/m3. The snow in the bottom of the gully would have been much closer to the weight of ice than of powder snow.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @cameronphillips2000, terrain traps don't need to be big or manmade to be deadly. I think a cubic meter of compressed snow weighs about a ton. If you're buried, for example, to a depth of three metres that is a huge weight that needs to be dug out and shifted by hand shovelling compressed snow. It wouldn't take a large natural feature to trap avalanche debris to a depth of three or four metres if it is a big slab which has slid. Always something to think about when you are choosing a route. |
interestingly, they refer to the trap as earthworks on quite a few of the reports. One had described the trap, designed to protectorate below, had tragically likely led to the decreased chance of survival yesterday. Its all so terribly sad. |
That's because it is earthworks designed to protect the village.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| A cubic metre of water weighs 1 tonne, ice weighs very slightly less and powder snow weighs as little as 100kg/m3. The snow in the bottom of the gully would have been much closer to the weight of ice than of powder snow. |
Having dug through avalanche debris some years ago, on a course fortunately not for real, I was shocked by how compacted the snow had become and how difficult it was to dig. I was using a plastic avalanche shovel (the orange ones that you used to be able to buy) and it was completely ineffective. Swapping to a metal shovel borrowed from a friend was immediately better, so the plastic shovel went straight in to the bin that same day.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@rob@rar,
My lad has an ally Black Diamond shovel in his avi kit, but I worry about it being in his backpack should he take a heavy impact to his back. As you say, way better to dig with.
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@rob@rar, No one should carry a plastic shovel. They are a complete waste and false sense of security. They should be banned for Sale as Avi Rescue Equipment
Looking at this slide. Those caught would of had no chance of rescue. The type of slide is like being caught in a cement mixer & it setting rock hard . The Snow would of been compacted so hard & compressed around the victims they would of been squeezed to death (sorry for the detail).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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That's a good read and at last confirms that no one set off this avalanche from above, other than nature itself and the people involved. The BBC reported the "SKIERS" that set this off and it's now in garbage articles, like the TGR one across the world. Annoys me.
Guide or no guide, equipment or not you play roulette by skiing a known avalanche route like that and the fact it had been skied means nothing sadly when it comes to a slab releasing from a very weak layer that exists. I'm really surprised a local would take a group down there in the current conditions as that's just alarm bells galore.
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@Bod, cheers, interesting it's the first time I've read that they had already skied the run once
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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On a different note, where did all those rescuers come from?
From the photos it seems there were a lot people were on site within a short time
Are they just local volunteers? Are they on a local list? How are they summoned? Could it be any passing skier?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's right next to the town so ski patrol would probably have heard it go or seen it, they then radio for help including all local instructors.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| @Bod, cheers, interesting it's the first time I've read that they had already skied the run once |
Agreed interesting read. Heart goes out to those involved.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| That's because it is earthworks designed to protect the village |
I've mountain biked out of the hollow in question quite a few times when returning from the direction of Val D'Isere.
The earthworks are really huge - maybe 40 or 50 feet deep - so much so that (before reading yesterday that this was a man-made structure) I had wondered whether it was actually glacial moraine.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This is the local on-line Val rag and was one of the worst informed yesterday. Other than the info re-cycled from the official reports, I wouldn't take anything in this as fact.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| francium. wrote: |
| It's right next to the town so ski patrol would probably have heard it go or seen it, they then radio for help including all local instructors. |
The lifty at the top of the Rosset chair would have heard and felt it before it reached the gully.
Holiday makers and volunteers helped initially, until those in charge had enough resort staff. They even got piste bashers there quickly, to reduce the snow level in the gully when it was cleared of the shallowest buried victims.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A couple of comments on avalanches;
1. Plastic shovels are crap and should be put in the poubelle.
2. All the training you do does not prepare you for the real thing. Initial adrenaline during the search is eventually replaced by tiredness. 10 minutes digging with a shovel is hard work.
3. I see a number of comments that say you should always have a shovel, probe and Arva. They are of little use if you are buried under meters of snow.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@stewart woodward, but dont you carry those in case you are first at the scene?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
A couple of comments on avalanches;
1. Plastic shovels are crap and should be put in the poubelle. |
Agreed. Good for clearing the car of snow (less damage to paintwork than a metal blade) but useless on the mountain.
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| 2. All the training you do does not prepare you for the real thing. Initial adrenaline during the search is eventually replaced by tiredness. 10 minutes digging with a shovel is hard work. |
All the training doesn't prepare you but the more you've done, the more natural it will feel. The one time I've got involved I had to tell two skiers who came to help to sod off as they were unable to get their transceivers into search mode and were just faffing. It was also the first time I had tried to move over avalanche debris "in anger" and it is bloody hard work. Searching in real life is a LOT more tiring than practising in an avy park or with your mates in esort so you are knackered just finding them, then you have to start digging........
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| 3. I see a number of comments that say you should always have a shovel, probe and Arva. They are of little use if you are buried under meters of snow. |
In this case they would not have/did not help. However, in some cases they will help and having the kit and the skills and knowledge to use it does tip the scales slightly more in your favour should something happen.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sorry if it's already been mentioned, but have they recovered the bodies?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
2. All the training you do does not prepare you for the real thing. Initial adrenaline during the search is eventually replaced by tiredness. 10 minutes digging with a shovel is hard work.
3. I see a number of comments that say you should always have a shovel, probe and Arva. They are of little use if you are buried under meters of snow. |
Before you even get in the situation of needing your shovel probe and beeper good training, and/or reading and educating yourself, should lead to safer ski practises. This should ensure that in the first place you are not in an avi danger zone. Following that, when you do enter a slope that you are unsure of, you ski one at a time so that in a bad scenario only one person gets buried.
If you need a shovel, probe and beeper you have made a collection of big mistakes.
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^^^
of course the kit and skills to use it are necessary .. I would say the point being made is that the mountain awareness of terrain, conditions, history , weather and judgement etc is the most important .. and neither whole or part make you invincible .
it doesn't matter what I think ... an " experienced trained local " made a decision ..... a tragedy occurred ... RIP
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 14-02-17 17:39; edited 2 times in total
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when i first started skiing in tignes 15 years ago, you would not see that many lines in the lavachet wall, but it seems to get more and more common these days and i would say that a large amount of people who ski it, are probably not aware that is prone to sliding, (i have seen plenty of people ski it with no avi kit).... i have skied a fair amount of the off piste in tignes and i have never skied that slope as its just too dangerous, its very tempting because its very accessible with no hike really involved.....
still a tragedy when it happens....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| @stewart woodward, but dont you carry those in case you are first at the scene? |
Yes you should always carry these and know how to use them (probe, shovel & Arva).
Sorry, The point I was trying to make is that I see lots of posts saying you should carry these as if they are some type of 'magic protection'.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 14-02-17 16:54; edited 1 time in total
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@stewart woodward, understood
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