 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all
A friend of mine crashed on piste last week and has torn his ACL. He was taken off the mountain in a blood wagon/ skidoo and then racked up a few other expenses including a leg brace and crutches.
When he phoned his insurance company, one of their first questions was 'were you wearing a helmet' and he answered honestly that he was not.
Obviously the injury and costs don't relate in anyway I can see his wearing one or not but there is a clause in his policy that states he should wear one.
Does anyone have any experience of this and will the insurance company use it as a reason not to pay out?
I'm not sure at the moment which company he used but it was a cheap policy he found through some comparison site, so we can assume it isn't snowcard or similar.
Thanks for your help.
Tom
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How would a helmet protect an ACL?
(And how would lying to your insurance company help you?)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@cheltom, I goes to show you should always read the policy restrictions before taking out a policy. I suspect there are other daft restrictions hidden in it somewhere
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@cheltom, ouch. Whether it invalidates a claim really depends on what the clause in the policy states but it doesn't sound promising for your friend  . Does it exclude any claim for an incident if not wearing a helmet? Most policies would state something like that for riding a motorcycle, for example.
It was discussed a few years ago on here and I'm sure we are all interested in the outcome: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=92856
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I suppose it all depends on the contract. This is what Insure&go say in theirs;
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M6 – Winter sports activities
Special condition which applies to section M6
Under this policy you must:
1. You must always adopt and follow the appropriate and
recommended safety precautions when undertaking any
winter sport activity inclusive of, but not limited to, the
wearing of a safety helmet.
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I'm no lawyer but I'd imagine that failure to comply with the terms of the insurance policy would put you at risk of the cover being invalid. I'd also imagine that it's something they're aware of otherwise why ask the question?
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It may just be that their termsand conditions required wearing a helmet or theymight justbe data gathering but...
I know of cases where car insurance companies have tried to reduce payouts to cyclists because they were not wearing helmets in accidents... even when the injury didn't involve their head and one case I know was a claim for bike damage with no injury. In every case they lost in court. I haven't heard of a case recently, so they may have given up but it wouldn't surprise me if they started trying it on in skiing.
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| adithorp wrote: |
| ... ... even when the injury didn't involve their head and one case I know was a claim for bike damage with no injury. In every case they lost in court. I haven't heard of a case recently, so they may have given up but it wouldn't surprise me if they started trying it on in skiing. |
As you say, it's not a contract term which would stand up in court in the real world. It's interesting that some are apparently willing to "try it on", but they'd meet a very robust response in any UK court. They can create all the unfair contract terms they like, they don't matter. A heliski waiver is a pretty good example of this.
(On cycle helmets, commonly children carry helmets at their parents request, and usually they are to be seen hanging off the handle bar. Children are better at assessing risks than their parents, who are presumably completely clueless. Anyway, this one was taking his helmet off whilst trying to cycle, which he was clearly not capable of doing. Which would be funny if it came to an insurance claim... )
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Thanks for you help everyone. I'll keep you posted.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I suppose it all depends on the contract. This is what Insure&go say in theirs;
Quote:
M6 – Winter sports activities
Special condition which applies to section M6
Under this policy you must:
1. You must always adopt and follow the appropriate and
recommended safety precautions when undertaking any
winter sport activity inclusive of, but not limited to, the
wearing of a safety helmet.
I'm no lawyer but I'd imagine that failure to comply with the terms of the insurance policy would put you at risk of the cover being invalid. I'd also imagine that it's something they're aware of otherwise why ask the question?
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I suppose that not wearing a knee brace would fall under the same heading.
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@cheltom, I suspect @adithorp, and @philwig's comments are the most helpful.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@adithorp's post is ambiguous. It can just as well be read the opposite way to @under a new name's reading of it (though I agree it only makes sense if @under a new name is correct). Are the cyclists, or the insurance companies the 'they' who 'in every case they lost in court'?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@adithorp's post, interesting though it is, also refers to car insurance companies trying to wriggle out of (presumably) claims by an injured 3rd party cyclist. In this context insurers will always try to reduce their liability if they could prove some contributory negligence but I can't imagine them getting very far with that one and rightly so. It's not the point in question here though.
If a policy explicitly excludes cover for an activity for all incidents that happen unless you wear a helmet, if you don't wear one then they will refuse any claim. It might be unfair contract terms but you'd need to test that -
Added: in fact I agree with @philwib and you'd be right to test it in Court
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 7-02-17 18:56; edited 1 time in total
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@johnE, not really. Is a knee brace something that is a "recommended safety precaution"? If so, it's the first time I've heard of it in 38 years of skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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I emailed insureandgo in 2015 (when they first introduced the 'helmets' clause) - below is their reply
"Thank you for contacting InsureandGo Insurance services Ltd. We can confirm that you must ‘You must always adopt and follow the appropriate and recommended safety precautions when undertaking any winter sport activity inclusive of, but not limited to, the wearing of a safety helmet.’ This means if the resort you are staying at requires you to wear a safety helmet then your policy will not cover you unless you follow this advice.
Please could you confirm if you would like us to cancel and refund your policy and I will send your request to our cancellations department.
Yours sincerely"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
| This means if the resort you are staying at requires you to wear a safety helmet then your policy will not cover you unless you follow this advice. |
Does anyone know of a resort that requires adults to wear a helmet?
A lot of resorts require children to wear them but not adults.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Maybe it's about park and boarder cross runs?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@needles, I reccommended it about a year ago on this forum. The wording didn't say who had to do the recommendation or if they had any qualifications to make that recommendation. However, @albob, points out that the resort must insist upon it. In others words the wording of the policy is meaningless.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@johnE, really? Interesting recommendation - can't say it's a bad idea for the knee ligaments but they can be hellishy uncomfortable. I don't think we know which insurer the OP's friend is insured with do we?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I hope his ACL recovers
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If the insurer declines to pay then I would suggest the individual first of all complains to the insurer and then if necessary elevates the complaint to the Ombudsman. The specific injury was not caused or affected by the lack of a helmet and the Ombudsman tends to lean heavily in favour of insureds in circumstances like these.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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His insurance is with Insure&Go so hopefully based on albob's email with them it should be OK.
Cheers
Tom
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| FFIRMIN wrote: |
| If the insurer declines to pay then I would suggest the individual first of all complains to the insurer and then if necessary elevates the complaint to the Ombudsman. The specific injury was not caused or affected by the lack of a helmet and the Ombudsman tends to lean heavily in favour of insureds in circumstances like these. |
Whilst that is probably correct and the OP would probably have a decent chance of winning, there is no certainty.
The reality is that if you do not follow the instructions set out in the policy, as this whole thread so aptly demonstrates, is that you end up with a load of uncertainty and worry. Nobody here has been able to give a definitive answer to the OP.
If the policy tells you to wear a helmet, then wear a helmet or insure elsewhere. Either way you can sleep easily at night.
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Interesting question. As has been pointed out policy small print does say:
"You must always adopt and follow the appropriate and recommended safety precautions when undertaking any winter sport activity inclusive of, but not limited to, the wearing of a safety helmet.".
I'd consider that a pretty important restriction in the cover - given helmets are not generally mandatory it would be easy to caught out by this unless you studied the full policy in detail. I believe the best practice is to make such key terms clear at time of purchase rather than hiding them in the small print. Insure and Go do mention helmets when selling the cover, but it is presented as a tip rather than a condition of the policy:
"Don’t let an accident on the first day ruin the whole week, remember a few simple tips and ensure a great time in the snow.
1. Wear a helmet. I know this seems like a really boring suggestion, but seriously – the amount of accidents and even deaths caused by head injuries have made many resorts set rules to make helmets mandatory when on the slopes.
2. Wear suntan lotion. Any seasoned pro knows that suntan lotion to the face is a must. Unless, of course, you want to show off your skiers burn lines in the office the following week."
Still leaves the question of whether they would insist the lack of helmet contributed to knee injury in some way? Probably not, and arguably no more than if you had forgotten to apply your suntan lotion that morning.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| cheltom wrote: |
His insurance is with Insure&Go so hopefully based on albob's email with them it should be OK.
Cheers
Tom |
just dug this thread out
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=117140&highlight=helmet&start=80
the post by 'anotheroutrage' is relevant. He was told by In&Go
"Unfortunately, we have to confirm that we will only cover claims if you wear a helmet whilst skiing. We are sorry we could not offer a more positive response."
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FAQ
