Why bash pistes? Because the snow wouldn't last as long for a start. Compacted snow melts slower.
Let's say you have a foot of fresh snow. Run your £200k Pisten Bully across half of it and leave the other half to nature. The half left to nature will either melt or blow away twice as fast as the stuff compacted by the basher.
They should really ban off piste skiing so the surrounding areas look nice and neat instead of full of tracks.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
There is a lot of reason to bash pistes. The underlying reason in the OP regarding idiots will not be stopped by not bashing pistes. Imagine the number of avalanches said idiots will cause off piste...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
As I've said before, I think that there should be (more) ungroomed reds and blues. There's a huge leap from a pisted red to an unpisted black and almost nothing between the two. (On piste, anyway, and not everybody is happy with skiing the edges of pistes.)
Why groom pistes?
All it does is encourage the nobheads to slide at great speed weighting tails of skis putting everyone else at risk?
Some new snow and fresh bumps seems to slow them right down judging by last couple of days here in Tignes
So limit their ability to allow their ambition to exceed their lack of any control equals immediate reduction in collisions at high speed
It's pretty easy answer considering you have so much of issues with "nobhead who slide at great speed"... it's simply to allow you to ski, as without groomed courses, you would be not able to ski yourself either
For anyone having problems with this, and with groomed courses... there's much more, and I really mean MUCH more ungroomed territory around. It's actually so much of it, that even after few weeks since last snowfall, you have chance to cut your tracks into pristine snow. So don't bother with those groomed trails, just go backcountry and you won't have any groomed trails there. It really is pretty simple
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I ski a lot in Andorra and it could be improved by them grooming fewer of the pistes particularly where there are two or three together one could be left and the others groomed to give us a choice.
Surely the point is that pisted/unpisted runs (I can't quite bring myself to use the Americanism 'groomed' - reminds me of Bradford) are surely just a matter of preference. i see no evidence, or anything close to it, that leaving runs unpisted will reduce accident. I strongly suspect the opposite is the case. So, if it's just down to preference then do we really think that the resorts are deliberately pisting too much despite knowing that this is contrary to what their punters desire? Or, is it the case that the demand for unpisted runs, as opposed to off-piste, is just far too small?
Personally, I think the above response pretty much sums it up ..... If you don't want your runs pisted, then stay off the pistes.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I blame cyclists
After all it is free
After all it is free
It's always good if a few runs in a resort are left to grow moguls (although most people don't like them so it should only be a few). Otherwise I'm all for grooming because a) it preserves the snow b) I like to carve up a piste sometimes and c) most customers prefer pisted snow.
I don't really understand the point about skiing on natural snow. After all, 1 day after a snow fall the runs are not going to be natural even if they are not pisted - they'll be skier prepared! If you want natural snow you have to go looking for it off piste. Try it, its great Where I tend to ski the off piste area is way bigger than the pisted snow so there's no shortage - what's the problem?
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@foxtrotzulu, I think you mean Rotherham
Having said that Another World, just 100 yard outside the Bradford boundayry do have a small grooming machine!
@Old Fartbag, Not sure unfitness is only the middle aged, It is amazing just how unfit a lot of 18yr olds are. Italy tends to have ungroomed itineraries, as does Austria, they are great fun and never over crowded .
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
When I saw my father's old cine films of us learning to ski in about 1970, I was shocked and amazed by how difficult conditions were for novices. I feel the growth of pisting has helped to increase the popularity of our sport/pastime/obsession(delete where necessary) and decrying it is:
1 looking back through rose-tinted glasses and
2 being a Luddite - how dare you use plastic boots fastened with clips, step-in bindings and brakes!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The problem is not the grooming, the problem is the behaviour of a very few people, when on groomed pistes.
These people are the problem that should be tackle.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
We have seen the first 3 days of the French holidays now, since the big dump on Sunday night there has not been much evidence of grooming around PLJ. I observed people going slowly pretty much everywhere ( the flat light of the last few days also helps to keep you honest when you can't see the bumps).
Neither did I witness the carnage that un-groomed pistes are meant to bring.
There were plenty of instructors and ski schools out enjoying the fresh snow, and seemed to be doing just fine despite the lack of corduroy.
Grooming on green slopes is a good idea as it helps to develop confidence and learn technique, but given that modern day skis pretty much turn themselves and absorb bumps in all conditions ( if we believe the marketing blurb ) then there would appear to be little need for grooming beyond that.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
To read half the threads on Snowheads one might be forgiven for thinking that the slopes are littered with thousands of these nobheads who cause absolute carnage on the slopes. It's certainly not like that from my experience. I probably see someone skiing at an 'inappropriate' speed no more than once every couple of days and they are usually dressed in red with an ESF logo on their jacket.
I think the statistics I read earlier is week suggested that around 3.5% of skiing injuries are due to collisions with another skier/boarder. Now, most of those probably won't have been caused by stereotypical nobheads. Is this really such a huge problem or are we just working ourselves into the usual SH frenzy of indignation?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jedster wrote:
I don't really understand the point about skiing on natural snow. After all, 1 day after a snow fall the runs are not going to be natural even if they are not pisted - they'll be skier prepared!
Man-made snow goes really shitty when it's been heavily trafficked. Natural stays nice and grippy provided it hasn't been rained on freeze thawed etc.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I want to see more groomed pistes. And the bashers out during the day. When I learnt 20 years ago, I'm sure it was more common to see a trinity of piste bashers driving down the hill with the piste closed temporarily until they had finished. Now, if it snows post the overnight piste bashing, then the slopes are a complete mess. If I wanted to ski ungroomed, I'd go off-piste. Which I don't.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@foxtrotzulu
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
foxtrotzulu wrote:
To read half the threads on Snowheads one might be forgiven for thinking that the slopes are littered with thousands of these nobheads who cause absolute carnage on the slopes. It's certainly not like that from my experience. I probably see someone skiing at an 'inappropriate' speed no more than once every couple of days and they are usually dressed in red with an ESF logo on their jacket.
I think the statistics I read earlier is week suggested that around 3.5% of skiing injuries are due to collisions with another skier/boarder. Now, most of those probably won't have been caused by stereotypical nobheads. Is this really such a huge problem or are we just working ourselves into the usual SH frenzy of indignation?
This man speaks common sense. What is he doing on the interweb?
My ancient bones and knackered knees might manage one mogul run or one off piste run then we would be finished for the day. Also I would not enjoy it as I would know the damage I was doing to my geriatric frame.
But give me well groomed slopes and good viz and I will be a very happy camper and my duration on the slopes will be much greater as I howl down the slopes on my antique 2 m Atomics in my Salomon SX92 equipes.
Anyway even the resorts known for having perfectly manicured slopes do not groom everything in fact they groom less than a third.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I've always found some enjoyment skiing in late.March. The first run down on the groomed piste that's had an overnight freeze on it.
Good call. I cycle to work, but I am not a cyclist as it turns out. They are "special" with subsequent needs.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
foxtrotzulu wrote:
I think the statistics I read earlier is week suggested that around 3.5% of skiing injuries are due to collisions with another skier/boarder.
I have difficulty believing that figure represents reality in the European mega-resorts where many of us ski. Nothing in my personal experience or the accounts of many here leads me to believe that collisions are a virtually trivial cause of injuries, as that figure would suggest,
After all it is free
After all it is free
@dogwatch, The figures were from North America. I'm not sure there would be significantly less collisions between skiers in NA, but collisions with trees in N.A. may dilute the skier collision stats. I too was surprised it was quite so low, but if I look back to all the times I've taken a tumble over the years not once has there been another person involved. Whether the real figure is 3.5% or 13.5% the point is that collisions are much rarer than other injury causes. I'm not suggesting the issue is 'trivial', just that we need to keep it in proportion and the idea of leaving runs unpisted specifically to slow down the 'nobheads' seems an over-reaction and counter-productive.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
emwmarine wrote:
coddlesangers wrote:
These complaints about grooming always always come from ski conditions in mega resorts. Stop skiing in over crowded places full of the flappy jacket brigade and you'll be fine. Love a nice grippy groomer me...
Sensible advice. The easiest way to have empty slopes, without horrible kids and overcrowding is simply to avoid skiing xmas week, new year and the two main UK half term weeks.
For most of december, january, march and april the alps are empty and pleasant
except if you were in the 3V last week like us...never seen so many people and queues outside the holidays. We always ski that week and usually very quiet. I suspect the poorer conditions have funnel people to the higher resorts (we were in Les Menuires).
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
dogwatch wrote:
Nothing in my personal experience or the accounts of many here leads me to believe that collisions are a virtually trivial cause of injuries, as that figure would suggest,
An attempt at a heuristic approach producing a non-scientific analysis, almost certainly.
In my personal experience there are very few accidents on the slopes anyway. I'd guess one sees a medic in action every, what two? or three? days' skiing. On this basis it's very difficult to draw any statistical significance.
And these accidents are mostly self-inflicted, rather than having been caused by a third party. I dread to think how many times I buried myself in a snow drift last week. Whilst I did experience a collision with another skier - he was above me and I moved in an illogical fashion as I was coming to a stop as I was going too quickly for comfort - it was my fault really though he was mortified and hugely apologetic.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 8-02-17 12:33; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@James the Last, Just to clarify, the quote above wasn't from me.
Quote:
In my personal experience there are very few accidents on the slopes anyway. I'd guess one sees a medic in action every, what two? or three? days' skiing. On this basis it's very difficult to draw any statistical significance.
Agreed.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I did a week in Soldeu a couple of weeks ago and saw 2-3 blood wagons a day... Snow was good, but the light was flat a lot of the time. I didn't see any collisions in that time so I have no idea of the cause of the injuries.
The only way to get proper stats is from the resorts, who are carting the people off the mountain, or perhaps from insurance companies. Does anyone know if these are published anywhere?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@pieman666,
Quote:
The only way to get proper stats is from the resorts, who are carting the people off the mountain, or perhaps from insurance companies. Does anyone know if these are published anywhere?
There may be an argument that leaving pistes ungroomed might reduce the severity of the very worst accidents by reducing speeds, but all the data seems to suggest that reduced grooming will massively increase the frequency of injuries.
This information from Australia puts the overall risks into perspective:
Quote:
...... the overall injury rate for skiers is a little lower than you may expect with 3 injuries per 1000 skier days (1)(2). Put another way, if you ski 20 days a year, on average you’ll sustain an injury every 16-17 years.
If you ski just one week a year then that roughly equates to an injury once in a lifetime, and the chance of sustaining two fatal injuries in that period is even less.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
foxtrotzulu wrote:
If you ski just one week a year then that roughly equates to an injury once in a lifetime, and the chance of sustaining two fatal injuries in that period is even less.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
the chance of sustaining two fatal injuries in that period is even less.
Surely it must be twice as much.
Apologies for the misquoting; have fixed it.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@pieman666, @James the Last, I thought you'd enjoy that
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
...... the overall injury rate for skiers is a little lower than you may expect with 3 injuries per 1000 skier days (1)(2). Put another way, if you ski 20 days a year, on average you’ll sustain an injury every 16-17 years.
Or another way to slice that statistic would be a resort which sees 10,000 visitors a day 'could' expect in the region of 30 injuries a day, with only 1 or 2 of those due to collisions.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
What constitutes an "injury" in these stats? Is it something that requires you to be stretchered off the slopes or would it also include more minor incidents that would allow you to make your own way back to the resort?
Or another way to slice that statistic would be a resort which sees 10,000 visitors a day 'could' expect in the region of 30 injuries a day, with only 1 or 2 of those due to collisions.
that sounds about right to me actually
the thing about collisions is not that they are that common just that they can be "done to you" so are much less acceptable
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Stop The Brutal Grooming.
Give the Hills back to Nature , they could ski it (No fixed bindings, no helmets) in 1931 why not now??
... Or another way to slice that statistic would be a resort which sees 10,000 visitors a day 'could' expect in the region of 30 injuries a day, with only 1 or 2 of those due to collisions.
I had to take a mate to the medical centre at a major resort the other week and spent a few hours there. Your maths looks correct from what I saw. Most or all injures I saw were, in my "skilled in hospital stats but not in clinical care" view not collision related. They were mostly fat tourists tweaking their knees to various extents.
Perhaps they should upgrade their knee hardware to cope with the increased load. Or maybe there's a more obvious solution.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Well,well
Enjoying the tangents taken on this issue
Many examples of bees in bonnets being aired!!
Motives questioned and inferred to suit posters views
just what the internet is good at
👏
After all it is free
After all it is free
@snowornever, Actually, I thought we were still pretty much bang on topic. The OP suggested not grooming pistes to reduce injuries caused by nobheads. Discussing the frequency of nob-induced injuries seems prett relevant
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Pistes = Speed = Accidents
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
i have no interest in the resorts making money .. I have no interest in what the beginner prefers .. i have no interest in what the "experts" prefer .. no grooming bar on a couple of short runs maybe to get people used to it .. then that's it .. stop the rope tow, single open chair, drag, t bar, multi chair, 10 seat interchanging heated and covered chair, funiculars, stop the mechanised sprawl for monetary return ..........
just ski for fun on whatever you get given ... earn it ...
just another take on it
oh,... and yes nobheads will be nobheads but less of a nobhead if your nobheadedness is limited by factors which reduce the ability to be as big a nobhead .. so agree with OP .. LESS GROOMING !1
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Where I tend to ski the off piste area is way bigger than the pisted snow so there's no shortage - what's the problem?
