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Stop grooming pistes??

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Pyremaniac, @James the Last, My point, and I did say I was happy to be corrected, was that these unpisted blues will have been pretty intensively skiied within a few hours of the last snowfall/grooming (whenever that was) and therefore they might not be great preparation for off-piste/backcountry skiing where surely the main aim is to ski where others have not already gone before.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Well not if, as you claim, most people would downright avoid them because they want the pure piste experience.

Anyway there is a lot more to skiing off piste than skiing pure untracked powder - nice though that is. There may be tactical reasons why you want to ski an off piste area that gets lots of traffic (e.g. because the underlying snowpack is better consolidated) and really skiing proper powder is the easiest bit of off piste skiing - it's skiing the junk and the bumps and the crud and making tactical decisions where the real difference is and those can exactly be developed on unpisted "runs".
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@foxtrotzulu, corduroy is the furthest thing there is from untracked powder. So surely practising on anything else must be an improvement when it comes to preparing for venturing off the piste?
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I can't believe people are actually complaining about a lack of bumpy blue runs. Go to any popular resort and by about noon you'll have no problem whatsoever finding bumps, moguls and crud on just about every blue (or red) run leading towards the village. All evidence of the previous night's pisting will have more or less vanished.

Leave it until about 4pm and you can chuck bare patches, ice or possibly slush into the mix too. Plenty of scope for honing your skills in variable conditions. Toofy Grin
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stanton wrote:
Gyro wrote:
There seem to be some un groomed dictators about? we will not groom the pistes and you will get to like them and improve your technique.....or you will hate, it stop skiing/snowboarding stop going on snow holidays, ski resorts will lose millions, holiday companies will pull out and there will be no more winter sports holidays.

How many of the stop grooming brigade make the use of ski lifts/ski busses etc.? If you prefer it so natural and want to work for it, why not just go back country and have done with it? there is all the un groomed snow you like there, and no knobheads getting in the way.

Why groom pistes? Take a look at the number of people riding un groomed and the number of people riding groomed. The companies that own the resorts have done this and cater for the massive majority. Yes it's good to do it every now and again just as it is good to ride the steepest drag lift you can find every now and again but if that's all there is, it stops being fun, and I think the reason most of us do it is to have fun.

Whilst we are un grooming pistes we could un invent the wheel?


Yeah but your not a Skier..realise thst first


I snowboard (20 years....ish) and ski (5 years).
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easy answer, have a grooming schedule which allows for pistes to be groomed two or three times a week, and post each morning the groomed pistes. seen this done in Canada, makes sense as it keeps everyone happly. Sound ecologically too.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@clarky999,
Quote:

what about people who want to ski ungroomed snow without having to deal with avalanche danger and obstacles under the snow, and those first learning to ski 'wild' snow who would be better concentrating on ski technique than safety?
I think that's fair enough, but the number of people we are talking about is pretty small and I would have thought that the unpisted runs and itineraires that already exist would have been plenty.


So here's the problem. In Europe, few people get the chance to ski ungroomed stuff because there's so little of it to ski unless you go to the expense and hassle of hiring a guide. As a result, the tiny number of ungroomed runs that exist are largely deserted. It's a chicken and egg problem that has sent me across the Atlantic to ski on many occasions.

In the USA and Canada, the culture is different. Easy ungroomed runs abound, so everyone has a pop at them. With time, they discover that it's vastly more fun to bounce around on bumps than it is to pick your way down a polished piste (in most European resorts the corduroy is destroyed by mid morning).

Here's a typical random photo in my from Jackson Hole that shows the demand for ungroomed runs exists if people are given the chance:



It was a busy day in Jackson, so you can see about 13 people in the picture. Five of these are clearly on the groomed section of the run. The other 8 are either firmly inside, just entering or just leaving the ungroomed area. That reflects my general perception of resorts like Jackson - given the chance, most people ski ungroomed runs at least some of the time.

It's a big potential market for European resorts ignore.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
While I agree they over groom in Europe, at least to a N.A. skier the real issue is the unskilled speed addict. Plenty here in the USA, and they are on the off piste too. Ours are just on rockered skis and riding not driving down at speed in the back seat.
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I can only speak for the Arlberg, but there is no shortage of safe side-piste, between the pistes, and ungroomed routes for people to have a play without entering the "back country". Some are easy, others less so, many can be scoped from a lift, and many/most are so close to a piste that safety of the groomers is close.

So again, I question what precisely people want when they want an ungroomed piste.
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ulmerhutte wrote:
I can only speak for the Arlberg, but there is no shortage of safe side-piste, between the pistes, and ungroomed routes for people to have a play without entering the "back country". Some are easy, others less so, many can be scoped from a lift, and many/most are so close to a piste that safety of the groomers is close.

So again, I question what precisely people want when they want an ungroomed piste.


Yes but it's not really that easy for the inexperienced to know what is safe. Within a few feet of pistes in St Anton I've seen massive glide cracks and a huge wet slide, along with plenty of stuff with hangfire above. All easy enough for someone thinking, this is just off the side it'll be ok.
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Stop grooming pistes and lets have more Tignes.

Risk and reward.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@ulmerhutte, that is not good advice "safe side of the piste"

A few seasons ago in Lech am Arlberg an American (early in the season before xmas) was killed in an avalanche just 5-10 metres off the side of a groomed piste.

Slides sre also frequent off the side of itinery routes in St Anton.
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cooperman17 wrote:
Stop grooming pistes and lets have more Tignes.

Risk and reward.


This spectacularly fails to get the point.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Talk of mogulled blues confuses me. I don't remember ever seeing a mogulled blue. Leave a gentle piste unbashed and it'll get ungroomed, maybe even cut up a bit over time. But can you get manmade moguls on slopes under a certain pitch? Surely you need a certain steepness where turning significantly cuts into the snow.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Ps. @cooperman17, don't be a numpty.
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@dode, Agreed. Can't remember the last time I saw bumps the blue room. Not sure it's possible.
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I was in Saalbach a few weeks ago and they had one two runs which they called "Wild runs", essentially an ungroomed piste. Absolutely nobody on them! Plus after a few days of warm weather they were in bad way with snow cover. Evidently grooming also helps to keep people skiing and thus keeps people returning. There are a few resorts in Europe that you can go that focuses on both ends of the spectrum. But perhaps what we need is results that have more of a split i.e. more itineraries etc.

Personally I believe the real problem with regards to uncontrolled speed and crowded pistes is skiing in groups but that's a different topic - perhaps I will start a thread on this Smile
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stanton wrote:
@ulmerhutte, that is not good advice "safe side of the piste"

A few seasons ago in Lech am Arlberg an American (early in the season before xmas) was killed in an avalanche just 5-10 metres off the side of a groomed piste.

Slides sre also frequent off the side of itinery routes in St Anton.


You really do come across as a banker* who has such low self-esteem that you need to prove how smart you are. You are not.

Yes, I am well aware of the death you noted. Equally, you would be aware of a slide that covered 1/2 of Steissbachtal mid-afternoon, about 4 or 5 years ago. Nobody died, but that's beside the point.

So, given side-pistes, pistes, and itineraries are not safe, and neither is walking alongside icy roads, perhaps skiing should be banned. You want 100% safe, take up knitting with blunt needles.

* Excuse the typo.
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dode wrote:
Ps. @cooperman17, don't be a numpty.


Constructive...
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cooperman17 wrote:
dode wrote:
Ps. @cooperman17, don't be a numpty.


Constructive...


Perhaps you could explain how having more safe controlled ungroomed slopes is going to lead to more people dying in uncontrolled ungroomed terrain then?
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ulmerhutte wrote:
stanton wrote:
@ulmerhutte, that is not good advice "safe side of the piste"

A few seasons ago in Lech am Arlberg an American (early in the season before xmas) was killed in an avalanche just 5-10 metres off the side of a groomed piste.

Slides sre also frequent off the side of itinery routes in St Anton.


You really do come across as a banker* who has such low self-esteem that you need to prove how smart you are. You are not.

So, given side-pistes, pistes, and itineraries are not safe, and neither is walking alongside icy roads, perhaps skiing should be banned. You want 100% safe, take up knitting with blunt needles.



I'm not sure he's so wrong there tbh. Your 'so close to the safety of a piste' comment could definitely be mis-construed by someone with no experience - as you acknowledge, people have been caught out right next to the pistes. Proximity is no guarantee of safety etc...

Sure there's plenty of safe in between pistes type stuff in St Anton, but that's only useful if you have enough experience to actually judge whether individual slopes fall into that category or not. The sort of people who would benefit from ungroomed blues DON'T, which is precisely why easy ungroomed but controlled slopes would be useful.

*I know you know this, but you don't know who's reading!
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clarky999 wrote:
cooperman17 wrote:
dode wrote:
Ps. @cooperman17, don't be a numpty.


Constructive...


Perhaps you could explain how having more safe controlled ungroomed slopes is going to lead to more people dying in uncontrolled ungroomed terrain then?


First explain what these are.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@cooperman17, exactly what we've been talking about: a piste, marked on the map and the ground, protected from avalanches, but not groomed.
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Quote:

can you get manmade moguls on slopes under a certain pitch?


You can get manmade bumps on pretty much any pitch with sufficient traffic, over time.
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
@dode, Agreed. Can't remember the last time I saw bumps the blue room. Not sure it's possible.


There's a lovely *green* at the top of the Borsat lift in Tignes which is always bumpy as anything after about 10 am.
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There is, the first 200m of it. But it avoidable by traversing right.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@ulmerhutte, Calm down..take another chill pill .
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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Quote:

You can get manmade bumps on pretty much any pitch with sufficient traffic, over time.

Agreed, it will get cut up and bumpy in places, but it won't be proper moguls surely? Unlike the much steeper slopes not everyone will be doing the short radius turns to create them.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@clarky999, Fair comment. My PoV is, no doubt, coloured by considerable experience (longer than I care to quote) and 15 years skiing in the Arlberg.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I remember years ago skiing an unpisted run in Zermat. IIRC, it was a red in the Schwartzsee area. Anyway, it wasn't very steep but hadn't been pisted in ages - if at all that season. There were lumps the size of cars that were parked about a foot apart. A most unpleasant experience!
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Malgovert in Les Arcs is an unpisted red, I think the only unpisted red in resort. It's a bit like an obstacle course in places but massive fun. And always pretty empty whenever I've done it. The French are quite good at not bashing a lot of the black runs but 99% of the reds and blues seem to get a new coat of corduroy every evening.

I definitely remember the days of piste bashing during the day though; less than 10 years ago i was lucky enough to hit an empty piste in Hinterglemm that had a just a single track of fresh groomer that I followed all the way down. It was really lovely, corduroy but nice and soft, it felt like I owned my own mountain.
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The ski industry would collapse if they just left the slopes and didn't piste them.
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dode wrote:
Talk of mogulled blues confuses me. I don't remember ever seeing a mogulled blue. Leave a gentle piste unbashed and it'll get ungroomed, maybe even cut up a bit over time. But can you get manmade moguls on slopes under a certain pitch? Surely you need a certain steepness where turning significantly cuts into the snow.


I can get you a photo later. Here in Flaine, the warmth of the afternoon combined with heavy half term traffic is leading to fields of slushy bumps, sone quite regularly spaced, on the steeper parts of the blues. Basically anywhere that a substantial number of people want to turn a bit to reduce speed. We also have series of compression ridges across the pistes on the flat that the bashers are struggling to remove overnight.
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clarky999 wrote:


I'm not sure he's so wrong there tbh. Your 'so close to the safety of a piste' comment could definitely be mis-construed by someone with no experience - as you acknowledge, people have been caught out right next to the pistes. Proximity is no guarantee of safety


Thanks. Someone undertands.
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Navrig wrote:
The ski industry would collapse if they just left the slopes and didn't piste them.



The Ski Industry needs to take a step backwards (10yrs+) ...

Its not all about money.

The industry as you call it could implode with the ever increasing costs of a Holiday and reduced incomes.

Many Hotels in particular in Austria are in trouble because of lack of guests.
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alr1970 wrote:

I can get you a photo later.




4pm today. I will admit that people were not skiing them as moguls, but mostly steering a path through the valleys between them. But they certainly felt like moguls when trying to snowboard over them: they are just the same size as what grow on the blacks.
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They look like brill baby mogul practice - if you're on a board get working on that Shakira hip action and wiggle round them (or maybe that should be robin_mxx hip action I hear wink )
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They're not moguls, they're mini jumps! That looks like great fun.
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stanton wrote:
Navrig wrote:
The ski industry would collapse if they just left the slopes and didn't piste them.



The Ski Industry needs to take a step backwards (10yrs+) ...

Its not all about money.

The industry as you call it could implode with the ever increasing costs of a Holiday and reduced incomes.

Many Hotels in particular in Austria are in trouble because of lack of guests.


So it's not all about money. But it's about costs.

Colour me confused.
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@Dav, So stop grooming and then the hotels wouldn't be in trouble they would be closed. What a brilliant idea ant the Stan ton would have it all to himself.
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