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Stop grooming pistes??

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Why groom pistes?

All it does is encourage the nobheads to slide at great speed weighting tails of skis putting everyone else at risk?

Some new snow and fresh bumps seems to slow them right down judging by last couple of days here in Tignes

So limit their ability to allow their ambition to exceed their lack of any control equals immediate reduction in collisions at high speed
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@snowornever, I suspect the answer is that 95% of the skiing populations aren't nob heads, and they behave responsibly on smooth pistes. It is not just the high speed sliders, it is also the pseudo racers on race replica skis, who may be fully in control, but would be unable to stop or react in time to any incident.

You could make exactly the same argument about building smooth roads, 95% drive in control and within speed limits, but this time the 5% of nob heads are in 2 tons of metal....
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It's not compulsory to ski on the piste Wink
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snowornever wrote:
Why groom pistes?



Because if you don't your resort will go broke. It's what people want.
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PowderAdict wrote:
@snowornever, I suspect the answer is that 95% of the skiing populations aren't nob heads, and they behave responsibly on smooth pistes. It is not just the high speed sliders, it is also the pseudo racers on race replica skis, who may be fully in control, but would be unable to stop or react in time to any incident.

You could make exactly the same argument about building smooth roads, 95% drive in control and within speed limits, but this time the 5% of nob heads are in 2 tons of metal....


Yes 95% are not reckless 5% cause 90% of the trouble this is not the issue
Groomed pistes just give that 5% the chance to hurt others

Groomed motorway pistes serve no purpose
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altis wrote:
It's not compulsory to ski on the piste Wink


Absolutely
Off piste is so much safer

And away from the crowds


And quiet and tranquil

Pistes are trouble funnels
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
To help push the snow back up the hill. Very important when a resort is not getting much snow fall.
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yuppie wrote:
To help push the snow back up the hill. Very important when a resort is not getting much snow fall.
True.
Also if you choose to ski the steep icy blacks, they seem to be far less populated with said nob heads. I find the reds are always packed with people who have a skill to ski fast but not well enough to handle a steep icy run, so they tend to avoid them.
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PowderAdict wrote:
who may be fully in control, but would be unable to stop or react in time to any incident....


So not in control at all then
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Empty grippy corduroy can be a thing of joy. And given European snowfall patterns without grooming things would look very thin indeed.

And the plain fact is that many people lack the skill set and versatility to deal with a piste left ungroomed for even a couple of days as they often do in NAmerica on a rotating basis. The nob heads terrify me - if zikomo is reading they are the sort of people I wouldn't mind shoulder charging if they ever look like taking me out.
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We've been round this discussion at least once before.

According to the American NSAA, only 3.5% of ski injuries are caused by collison with another skier and I'd hazard a guess that only a very small propertion of these are caused by 'nobheads' as opposed to normally sensible skiers who have made a mistake.

Not grooming pistes might reduce the speed of some skiers but I don't think there can be any doubt that the overall injury rate would massively increase as skiers struggle to cope with everything from deep snow to moguls to breakable crust, bare patches, ice, snow cookies etc.

Apart from anything else, most people prefer to ski on-piste.

Of course, if one is so safety conscious that one wishes to limit 'risky' behaviour then the most obvious course of action would be to ban skiing off-piste. In addition, the highest risk group is skiers of 'above average' ability, so perhaps the next step is limit the resorts to intermediates and below.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@holidayloverxx, Maybe I should have put the "control" in speech marks, as in, in "control" compared to the high speed slider. Both are accidents waiting to happen.
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
... only 3.5% of ski injuries are caused ...

Precisely.

It's like saying: "I like to ski at resorts, except I don't like resorts". Of sense it doesn't make. It's easy to avoid anything you want to avoid. Ride off piste. Get a sled. Tour. Ride in North America where they deliberately bash only certain parts of a mountain. They even bash one side of a piste and leave the other side as bumps: take your pick. Learn to ride corduroy.

I'm more concerned with the use of the word "groom", which seems very American. But in America there's no problem with "grooming" - it's very civilized and sensible, because of the way American resorts work. "Stop the evil grooming" is in fact a joke, not a call to action. To misinterpret that would be the act of, well, perhaps we could ask a nobby head about it?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
But what role does speed play in injuries? Would it be the case that on less well gromed slopes there would be more minor accidents but perhaps less serious outcomes because speeds are lower? Some resorts warn skiers about speeding so they must have a concern about excess speed.
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The European Alps are close to warm seas and warm sands.

Alps snow is almost always heavy, wet or crusty.

Alps snow stays in good condition for a day at best.

~95% of skiers do not have the strength or skill to shred unbullied trails with cr*p snow every day.

Ski resorts would go bust in about a month.
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Poster: A snowHead
I blame people who wear helmets Twisted Evil
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Woman on our trip tore her MCL going no faster than walking speed.

Speed doesn't always factor
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snowornever wrote:


Yes 95% are not reckless 5% cause 90% of the trouble this is not the issue
Groomed pistes just give that 5% the chance to hurt others



Two things....

1. You made up that statistic

2. You haven't seen me skiing bumps. 'Reckless' and 'out of control' are not the same thing.
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Why groom pistes? Because your average (UK) skier doesn't get more than a week or so a year skiing. We are not great skiers. We don't like being catapulted back bottom over tit by moguls and snow drifts. A groomed piste may be tame and tedious to the experts but for the halt and the lame it is a thing of joy and excitement. Just because we are not very skilled doesn't make us nobheads.
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Thornyhill wrote:

2. You haven't seen me skiing bumps. 'Reckless' and 'out of control' are not the same thing.


Which one are you? Madeye-Smiley
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chomski wrote:
Why groom pistes? Because your average (UK) skier doesn't get more than a week or so a year skiing. We are not great skiers. We don't like being catapulted back bottom over tit by moguls and snow drifts. A groomed piste may be tame and tedious to the experts but for the halt and the lame it is a thing of joy and excitement. Just because we are not very skilled doesn't make us nobheads.


I'm sure that piste grooming is not solely for the benefit of UK skiers rolling eyes .

The OP seems to forget that Ski resorts are a business and they will get more business by having groomed pistes.
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@snowornever, When you were a novice, where did you learn to ski and practice to become an expert?
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snowornever wrote:
Why groom pistes?

All it does is encourage the nobheads to slide at great speed weighting tails of skis putting everyone else at risk?

Some new snow and fresh bumps seems to slow them right down judging by last couple of days here in Tignes

So limit their ability to allow their ambition to exceed their lack of any control equals immediate reduction in collisions at high speed



Could not agree more.

STOP THE BRUTAL GROOMING.
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The vaste majority of skiers enjoy groomed slopes.
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Go ski in Zakopane, where there is a mountain reserve and it isn't groomed. While there are not many skiing that area, the season leaves huge moguls and narrow bits, that should suit. Moguls are fun, in Cortina, ( or one of the areas around the town, ) there is a part they don't bash, it can get moguled, then with a spring thaw the top melts, then freezes over leaving the run like skiing on a box of eggs, Shocked . It was like this last year when I was there, there were no speed skiers on that. Perhaps one or two runs to be left unbashed in each resort wouldn't ruin the resort. But there would need to be more ski patrols due to the injuries .
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Mollerski wrote:
Thornyhill wrote:

2. You haven't seen me skiing bumps. 'Reckless' and 'out of control' are not the same thing.


Which one are you? Madeye-Smiley


I don't set out to lose all my gear and my limbs....That would be reckless Happy
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
stanton wrote:
snowornever wrote:
Why groom pistes?

All it does is encourage the nobheads to slide at great speed weighting tails of skis putting everyone else at risk?

Some new snow and fresh bumps seems to slow them right down judging by last couple of days here in Tignes

So limit their ability to allow their ambition to exceed their lack of any control equals immediate reduction in collisions at high speed



Could not agree more.

STOP THE BRUTAL GROOMING.

BRUTAL GROOMING FTW Toofy Grin
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I would have a few quid on @stanton doing his own grooming.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

Why groom pistes?

All it does is encourage the nobheads to slide at great speed weighting tails of skis putting everyone else at risk?

Some new snow and fresh bumps seems to slow them right down judging by last couple of days here in Tignes

So limit their ability to allow their ambition to exceed their lack of any control equals immediate reduction in collisions at high speed


Probably so only 5% of people (sorry nobheads) are out of control and not 95% !

Bet
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
holidayloverxx wrote:
PowderAdict wrote:
who may be fully in control, but would be unable to stop or react in time to any incident....


So not in control at all then


Disagree: clearly anything moving fast has a natural stopping distance, and it's got nothing to do with being in control or not.

As for reacting in time to any incident, it depends on the awareness of the person of what's going on around them. A courteous and able skier can go fast, in control, and have little risk of (literally) running into an incident.

The problem is lack of courtesy, not speed per se. (I could say the same about driving in southern Europe!)
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Empty grippy corduroy can be a thing of joy. And given European snowfall patterns without grooming things would look very thin indeed.

And the plain fact is that many people lack the skill set and versatility to deal with a piste left ungroomed for even a couple of days as they often do in NAmerica on a rotating basis. The nob heads terrify me - if zikomo is reading they are the sort of people I wouldn't mind shoulder charging if they ever look like taking me out.
Laughing Laughing
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These complaints about grooming always always come from ski conditions in mega resorts. Stop skiing in over crowded places full of the flappy jacket brigade and you'll be fine. Love a nice grippy groomer me...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It feels like there's less grooming now than, say, 15 years ago. From memory, Bashers used to be up and down all day, but I guess a skier or two might have been maimed hitting one so that stopped. Overnight grooming has to last all day now...

It's the kit that's evolved to encourage the nob not the piste, in my blinkered crispy-corduroy loving opinion.

Speed bumps on motorways would probably eradicate pile-ups too...
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coddlesangers wrote:
These complaints about grooming always always come from ski conditions in mega resorts. Stop skiing in over crowded places full of the flappy jacket brigade and you'll be fine. Love a nice grippy groomer me...


Sensible advice. The easiest way to have empty slopes, without horrible kids and overcrowding is simply to avoid skiing xmas week, new year and the two main UK half term weeks.

For most of december, january, march and april the alps are empty and pleasant
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@chrisdavis, I think there is MORE grooming than ever before. It's just that you don't see it as they they no longer do it by day.
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snowornever wrote:


Groomed motorway pistes serve no purpose


They are great fun to carve on.

I would not enjoy day after day of skiing huge moguls everywhere, and nor would my knees.

The slopes would be a mess with no piste-bashing!
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
@chrisdavis, I think there is MORE grooming than ever before. It's just that you don't see it as they they no longer do it by day.

Agreed about night time grooming.
Is there any evidence of the time of day accidents typically occur? I would expect to see late afternoon, when those 'newer' skiers who can only carve can't cope with chopped up pistes and don't have the ability to adapt their technique to the conditions.
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chrisdavis wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@chrisdavis, I think there is MORE grooming than ever before. It's just that you don't see it as they they no longer do it by day.

Agreed about night time grooming.
Is there any evidence of the time of day accidents typically occur? I would expect to see late afternoon, when those 'newer' skiers who can only carve can't cope with chopped up pistes and don't have the ability to adapt their technique to the conditions.


Not sure there is much evidence, but i reckon your guess about the timings is probably correct. However, I'm less convinced that you can attach too much relevance to the combination of 'newer' skiers and chopped up pistes. I think there are a whole range of factors including slushy or icy pistes, bottlenecks on the home runs, over-confidence and, most significantly, fatigue. I'm sure some will also wish to add alcohol to that list.

Are there really some skiers who can 'only carve?'
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
....and most significantly, fatigue.

I think this is an important factor.

How many (middle aged) holiday skiers step onto the slopes with minimal fitness (and possibly technique) and expect their bodies to cope with skiing all day, for a week....being 18 "in their mind", doesn't count.
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Based on the North American resorts that I've visited, there can be significant demand from ordinary skiers for ungroomed runs. Many European skiers, especially Brits, have little exposure to ungroomed snow and may initially be intimidated by or lack the necessary technical skills to tackle unpisted runs, but, given the opportunity, they would quickly learn. I'm a once-a-year skier but I would far rather ski all day on natural snow than a boring piste.

I'm delighted by the relatively recent trend toward classifying some runs as ungroomed itineraries in many European resorts. We don't all like the same thing, and successful ski resorts will reflect that diversity of preference.
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