 Poster: A snowHead
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
@flaming, No not your fault - he took himself out of play by leaving the piste. It may have been prudent or safe practice to continue to monitor him but as soon as he left the piste responsibility for safe rejoining fell on him.
So many people fail to get this it is worrying. I can only assume that the saints who slow to a crawl near everyone stood off to the side or skiing adjacent to the piste also put the brakes on at every side junction when driving a main road in case the other motorists come out suddenly. |
Still changed the way I ski on pistes like that though. Breaking a bone and missing 4 weeks of your season tends to have that effect.
The problem with saying "yes, it was all his fault, I was blameless" is that it assumes that everyone knows the rules. And it assumes that at all times my interpretation of "the edge of the piste" and his interpretation of "the edge of the piste" are the same. It's entirely possible that in many circumstances that the area just outside the line of the piste poles will look and ski like a piste. Do we take a strict interpretation that piste = outside of poles, or do we assume that someone who has extended a continuous turn a couple of meters outside the line of poles, without actually going the wrong side of a pole, because the snow is fine there has actually not left the piste in the same way? What about if they then make a couple of quick fall line turns on stuff that looks and skis just like the piste, but is a couple of meters outside the line of the poles but still pass the right side of the poles?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dave of the Marmottes, +1 (re)joining a piste safely is your responsibility, even if all you are doing is playing at the margins or jumping around on the ridge line.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Agreed it was the responsibility of the other skier who had to rejoin the piste. But as @flaming, said, being in the right doesn't mean much when you have a bone break. But with only one other skier on the piste I would have changed my line 'just in case'. Survival instinct really and a preference for maximum open piste in front of me.
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@flaming,
the problem with
| Quote: |
| The problem with saying "yes, it was all his fault, I was blameless" |
is that your shoulder didn't get better overnight because it wasn't your fault.
However much DotM bangs on about 'blame' and 'fault', it really doesn't help you - other than perhaps the psychological boost of 'knowing you were right'.
@Dave of the Marmottes
It is not a question of slowing to a crawl, but you should be aware enough to consider the potential for muppetry and the concomitant escape route / evasion option, in every situation. And that applies juts as much when you are driving a 2 ton killing machine or on the pistes.
Yes there will still be accidents because some numpty will do something so incredibly stupid it can't possibly have been considered. Or the conditions were unavoidably unexpected. But by being responsible, and taking account of the human condition, you've have removed at least one variable from the equation.
And if that starts by the simple rule that 'everyone downstream of you (including those you've just seen go into the trees...) is likely to do something daft' - sorry: "has the right of way" - irrespective of their ability to think or consider other people - YOU will be safer.
Frankly " I'm in hospital for 6 weeks but it's OK because I was right" is a bit of a silly position to take.
Take care out there, and look after yourself by respecting others' ability to behave like a muppet on the mountain..
Not a bad metaphor for life in general actually.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@dode, you said it much shorter!
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Is it a mutually exclusive position to acknowledge the proper responsibility when we ski (including skiers below you and joining a piste), while at the same time saying a bit of common sense helps reduce the risk of an accident no matter who bears responsibility? I don't think so. This thread feels a bit like bald men fighting over a comb.
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@rob@rar, why aren't you out enjoying the new snow? 
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
| Quote: |
So many people fail to get this it is worrying. I can only assume that the saints who slow to a crawl near everyone stood off to the side or skiing adjacent to the piste also put the brakes on at every side junction when driving a main road in case the other motorists come out suddenly.
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I commute by bike and knowing that an accident is likely to end painfully for me whoever's fault it is I do take quite a lot of defensive action on the road. I won't slow to a crawl if I'm approaching a car waiting to enter my road but I will shoulder check, move out to the middle of my lane (giving me wiggle room if they pull out without looking properly) and cover my brakes. If I find myself pinned in because I've moved to late and I'm already have a car overtaking me then I will slow down rather than skim past the waiting cars bumper at speed.
Now the consequences of a crash between me on a bike and a car are likely to be worse than between two skiers so the parallel has its limits but round London I take similar action if a pedestrian is close to the kerb - they have a tendency to step out relying only on their ears. Again a collision would be largely their fault but still best to make allowances for other people's potential cock ups.
I guess what I'm saying is that if I see someone stood at the edge of the piste, particularly if their tips are pointing on to the piste, I would tend to assume that they MAY set off without looking and adjust speed and line accordingly. It's just hazard awareness and risk management. Conceptually the same process that you take assessing hazards off piste - what could go wrong and how do I mitigate that?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arctic Roll wrote: |
| @rob@rar, why aren't you out enjoying the new snow? |
I am, first lift, powder on piste, Vagere x2, Carreley x2, Clocheret x2, Varet x1 and now coffee at the Bulle. Sweet morning, if you exclude the shark attack.
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@Arctic Roll, @jedster, @dode, I'm all for the self preservation and agree in acting above and beyond the code wherever possible but like the recent thread where this was discussed if someone acts clearly against the code I am going to choose my own preservation and that of those innocent parties around me above absolutely avoiding collision with them - if that means they get a shove away or a shoulder check so be it.
It's all very well people saying they've never had a problem but to some extent it's like injuries - the more skiing you do the more likely you are to be involved in a collision or a bad fall
Mainly I try to avoid busy runs 95%+ of the day, park up and wait for traffic to pass etc etc but there are some times where it is just unavoidable to be in proximity to people who don't apply the rules and if they make a spectacularly bad decision and you have compounding factors (as in my example 2 people making the same terrible decision at the same time) things are potentially going to happen.
I'm not arguing with any of you. I do take issue with people like @zikomo which is why I'm in this thread because his argument clearly betrays a lack of understanding of the code and if he passes it on to people he skis with means the situation of people doing stupid things perpetuates - essentially he thinks downhill skier "rights" trump everything else
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| The problem happens when you assume someone stationary on the piste will NOT set off without checking first, based on a false assumption that it is their responsibility |
This is just plain wrong. It is not a false assumption - it is explicit that it is their responsibility. It is however , of course, wise to allow for the possibility that they won't act responsibly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
Fair enough.
And I'm not claiming I always get it right. I've made my own mistakes where I should have skied more defensively.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
@flaming, No not your fault - he took himself out of play by leaving the piste. It may have been prudent or safe practice to continue to monitor him but as soon as he left the piste responsibility for safe rejoining fell on him.
So many people fail to get this it is worrying. I can only assume that the saints who slow to a crawl near everyone stood off to the side or skiing adjacent to the piste also put the brakes on at every side junction when driving a main road in case the other motorists come out suddenly. |
You're right. And if we're getting into an argument about which rule takes priority I give you -
FIS Rules of Conduct:
1. Respect for other skiers and snowboarders
A skier or snowboarder must behave in such a way that he or she does not endanger or prejudice others.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
@Arctic Roll, @jedster, @dode, I'm all for the self preservation and agree in acting above and beyond the code wherever possible but like the recent thread where this was discussed if someone acts clearly against the code I am going to choose my own preservation and that of those innocent parties around me above absolutely avoiding collision with them - if that means they get a shove away or a shoulder check so be it.
It's all very well people saying they've never had a problem but to some extent it's like injuries - the more skiing you do the more likely you are to be involved in a collision or a bad fall
Mainly I try to avoid busy runs 95%+ of the day, park up and wait for traffic to pass etc etc but there are some times where it is just unavoidable to be in proximity to people who don't apply the rules and if they make a spectacularly bad decision and you have compounding factors (as in my example 2 people making the same terrible decision at the same time) things are potentially going to happen.
I'm not arguing with any of you. I do take issue with people like @zikomo which is why I'm in this thread because his argument clearly betrays a lack of understanding of the code and if he passes it on to people he skis with means the situation of people doing stupid things perpetuates - essentially he thinks downhill skier "rights" trump everything else
| Quote: |
| The problem happens when you assume someone stationary on the piste will NOT set off without checking first, based on a false assumption that it is their responsibility |
This is just plain wrong. It is not a false assumption - it is explicit that it is their responsibility. It is however , of course, wise to allow for the possibility that they won't act responsibly. |
No it is not a lack of understanding on my part, quite the contrary. I am not sure why you take issue with me as I merely disagree with you and think a different approach would improve safety for you and others. That being said, I agree it is their responsibility to check before setting off and I clearly mis-spoke above - what I should have said is it is a false assumption that you therefore do not have any responsibility as the uphill skier (and also that they would not do something daft).
The point is, the rules are not mutually exclusive. The skiers who you were unable to avoid should not have set off in such a way that they caused an issue. It is also true, that as the uphill skier, you need to allow for any skier to make any voluntary or involuntary movement. Which it sounds like you did not do. I really dislike this game of trying to prove who is at fault and who has the "right". No-one has the right to cause damage or injury to any other skier (or their equipment) and everyone has the responsibility to behave in a way that minimises that risk. Skiing close to stationary skiers at the edge of a mogul pitch where either due to the terrain or the limits of your ability you cannot avoid them if they do something unpredictable, is not excused by the fact that they also broke one of the "rules". It seems simple to me, but I do have some sympathy as it is much harder to adjust line or stop in the moguls and requires a much huger degree of proficiency to do so than on a flat piste. The again the FIS code explicitly states: "A skier or snowboarder must move in control. He must adapt his speed and manner of skiing or snowboarding to his per- sonal ability and to the prevailing conditions of terrain, snow and weather as well as to the density of traffic".
It is not so much a question of which rule takes priority as accepting our own responsibilities at all times. Although I do happen to agree with the guy in the film, we would all be much safer if we prioritised the downhill/uphill rule while of course enforcing all the other rules also.
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You know it makes sense.
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On the subject of "right of way", the Highway Code never grants it to you:
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| This section should be read by all drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders. The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident. |
I look at the FIS rules in the same way. It doesn't tell you that you are in the right, it says you might be in the wrong if you don't play nicely.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dave of the Marmottes, fairy nuff.
@jedster, Ain't that the truth. Skiing protocol is sooo easy from 700 miles away...
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Poster: A snowHead
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I saw a good one the other day from a lift chair. Just where a blue run narrowed and turned a corner one boarder (sitting) and 3 skiers (looked to be in their 40's) were stood in a line right across the piste with about 10 feet between each one. They had closed off about 80% of the available space unless you skied between them. There were approx 8 skiers higher up coming up to the corner. Yes, as downhill skiers they had the right to block most of the piste, but I would have had no sympathy if one of them had been hit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Personally I look forward to Google's self-driving skis.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Also would be good to know where you ski. Seems crowded, full of people doing crazy stuff against the rules (if your other posts are anything to go by), does not sound like fun at all. I certainly don't want to ski anywhere where I might have to shoulder or otherwise barge people out of the way!
I am guessing it is not Switzerland, so I should be ok, but would be good to know so I can avoid.
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Probably not as I'll be in Verbier this weekend The mogul incident was on the home run (black) to Nasserein in St Anton at Easter a few years ago - sh1tshow doesn't begin to describe the antics of the death before download crew on big soft spring bumps. The margin of the run was the only safe place to be.
The only place I've had to do a true fend off was at Hemel once where some out of control woman nearly wiped me before the fence. Even then I ended up sort of tackling her and falling myself (rather than being taken out at the knees) so don't get the impression that I go looking to cause damage.
On any busy Euro home run 20%+ of people will be breaching one or more rules. Last season a young guy skied over the tail of my skis when I was stood about as far as you could get against a fence (Rendl) - he was fairly skilled so I considered I wasn't in real danger but did wonder at his thought process . The reason there aren't more collisions is that people do try to go to every effort to make up for the deficiencies of those that don't think.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| musher wrote: |
On the subject of "right of way", the Highway Code never grants it to you:
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| This section should be read by all drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders. The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident. |
I look at the FIS rules in the same way. It doesn't tell you that you are in the right, it says you might be in the wrong if you don't play nicely. |
Good point - I've just been thinking that this also applies to the Colregs for sailors. "Right of way" isn't mentioned whereas "keep out of the way" is, lots.
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Wow. A lot of arguments on snowheads.
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How about when someone comes out of a bar down a slope and then ski's uphill across the piste to get to a chairlift (which was on effectively a flat landing). effectively skiing uphill against the flow of traffic. Technical they were still the downhill skier
Piste was crowded, and every one was skiing slowly at about 10mph en mass, suddenly skiers in front of me veer left hard revealing 2 skiers coming towards me, managed to miss the first, but was wiped out by the second
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Quiet piste late in the day Monday. Was pootling along looking for something tasty off the side. 2 girls go past me, 1 stops to the side her mate anchors on full hockey stop directly in front of me in the middle of the piste. If I'd been less skilled she'd have been toast. She did get called a frikkin moron.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ever noticed how some drivers are 'unlucky' and keep on being rear-ended by other cars? Or how their cars are endlessly being hit by other cars when they've parked?
Self preservation is the way forward.
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@James the Last, less about me - more about the fact that some people do not engage brains when on holiday - her mate stopped so she had to emergency stop RIGHT THEN regardless of the fact she'd passed me only a second before.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
Sounds like a possible breach of rule 4, certainly rules 1 & 6. I think that trumps getting rear ended (or verbally abused)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Dave of the Marmottes - no need to be tetchy. My comment wasn't aimed at anybody. Guilty conscience?
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
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Was pootling along looking for something tasty off the side. 2 girls go past me, 1 stops to the side her mate anchors on full hockey stop directly in front of me in the middle of the piste.
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your post went downhill from there, IMHO. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes - no need to be tetchy. My comment wasn't aimed at anybody. Guilty conscience? |
No not at all, though no doubt the downhill skier has right of way period brigade would have found some grounds to claim it was my fault/lack of skill regardless of the fact that I had been the downhill skier until she passed then stopped.
I do wonder whether people who don't regularly come across stupid behaviour either a) don't do much skiing or b) are themselves skiing along in a little bubble where they aren't really paying attention to others.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| flaming wrote: |
By far and away the worst crash I've ever had, which cost me a broken collarbone, was I think probably 50:50 in terms of blame. It went like this.
I was going fast down the right edge of a mellow blue piste that had cut up badly at the end of the day, in a thin path of smooth snow at the edge of the piste. There was someone ahead of me making short turns down this thin path unquestionably he is ahead. Nobody else was around. Just as I was about to slow down, he left the piste to the right. Oh goodie I thought, and carried on pointing down the thin path between the cut up bumps and the edge of the piste, wanting to keep my speed for the uphill section ahead.
However, without looking back up the piste, he then rejoined the piste right in front of me, I had to swerve to miss him, hit a bump and got launched. It hurt when I landed on my shoulder and I got a nice plate courtesy of Bourg hospital.
He was downhill skier. No question. However he also left the piste and rejoined it right in front of me. Possibly I should have predicted that and not skied in a way that required him to stay off the piste until I was past.
And no, he did not stop, despite the fact I flew past him in the air. |
Hmmm...., lots of short jumps, on/offs, skiing around a couple of trees off many paths in many resorts - Unless he'd set off on a definite path away from the piste I think I'd have expected him to zip back on.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| I saw a good one the other day from a lift chair. Just where a blue run narrowed and turned a corner one boarder (sitting) and 3 skiers (looked to be in their 40's) were stood in a line right across the piste with about 10 feet between each one. They had closed off about 80% of the available space unless you skied between them. There were approx 8 skiers higher up coming up to the corner. Yes, as downhill skiers they had the right to block most of the piste, but I would have had no sympathy if one of them had been hit. |
And if that was a medical team stretched out across that piste trying to save someone's life , would you still have no sympathy with them if one of those 8 skiers had hit them ?
If your answer is now different, as it should be, then you have made the point perfectly : NEVER ski in such a way that you can't stop in time for whatever lies hidden round a corner.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dave of the Marmottes, you admonished me some time back for insisting it was always the uphill skier's responsibility to avoid skiers below them. You referred me to rule 1 and suggested, quite curtly I have to say, that I should read the rules as (you considered) I quite clearly hadn't. However, in retrospect, I agree with you in terms of rule 1 in that anyone setting off should look uphill first, especially on a busy piste. I suppose the problem arises with beginners / improvers who are concentrating so much on what they are doing that they don't necessarily think to look and those skiers will tend to traverse more than a more competent skier. But, I still agree with you that they should look.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| billb wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, you admonished me some time back for insisting it was always the uphill skier's responsibility to avoid skiers below them. You referred me to rule 1 and suggested, quite curtly I have to say, that I should read the rules as (you considered) I quite clearly hadn't. However, in retrospect, I agree with you in terms of rule 1 in that anyone setting off should look uphill first, especially on a busy piste. I suppose the problem arises with beginners / improvers who are concentrating so much on what they are doing that they don't necessarily think to look and those skiers will tend to traverse more than a more competent skier. But, I still agree with you that they should look. |
As the recent recipient of ski lessons learning from scratch, I was surprised that at no stage did the instructor mention even one of these fundamentals. Surely the moment they take one onto the little blue piste they should say "Now, first look above you..all clear?..now off you go.."
In fact I found the instructor was positively arrogant with the encouragement "Now, you go now...c'mon what are you waiting for" when his pupil was for instance waiting for a train of a children's lesson to snake through past.
Given that 80% of people don't give a monkeys about anyone else, 50% have no special awareness and 90% of the public need telling that a cup of coffee might be hot, telling them to check they are not about to annihilated by a 200kilo numpty doing 100mph down the side of mountain would seem to be a naturally sensible step??
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| Strax wrote: |
In fact I found the instructor was positively arrogant with the encouragement "Now, you go now...c'mon what are you waiting for" when his pupil was for instance waiting for a train of a children's lesson to snake through past. |
Sad thing is he'd probably be the first to be screaming blue murder if an innocent skier skiing at moderate speed collided with one of his charges as they pulled out point blank on him/her. And as an instructor would likely be believed by the pisteurs over the ordinary punter.
Instructors with kids classes are often the worst - now everyone can accept that kids don't look but instructors often clearly do not allow for traffic to pass before setting off with their train of 12 (too many) pupils.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Strax,
Same here, I never had a word from an instructor about the subject.
At my daughter's race club they have a session just before Christmas every year to go through it all, and to show the kids some very useful tricks and tips for when skiing on snow.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| James the Last wrote: |
Ever noticed how some drivers are 'unlucky' and keep on being rear-ended by other cars? Or how their cars are endlessly being hit by other cars when they've parked?
Self preservation is the way forward. |
Agreed.
Always seems to be the same people who everyone just pulls out in front of "without looking".
It's like if your riding a bike, you are so much more venerable, so to stay alive you look ahead, identify possible dangers and avoid them. Everyone downhill of you is a danger. They can pull out, stop, fall, all without warning.
Obviously accidents happen when two people are neck and neck on the hill and come together but if someone pulls out in front of you without looking its you who has to deal with it. If they are down hill of you, you should have seen them and given them room or been prepared to take avoiding action.
Why would anyone ride so close to anyone (who is at this point stationary) that if they set off they can't avoid them.
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| Gyro wrote: |
Why would anyone ride so close to anyone (who is at this point stationary) that if they set off they can't avoid them. |
Because it is the only or best available space on the slope?
Or maybe ask it as why would anyone drive so close to the kerb that if a car pulls out from a sideroad without looking they can't avoid them? Or a pedestrian runs out into the road etc?
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| Quote: |
riding a bike, you are so much more venerable,
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Why thank-you kind sir, very charitable of you to notice my elevated status
When being taught to drive, "mirror, signal, manoeuvre" is a fundamental teaching point, and safety 101: indeed these days I am assured includes PLAN, mirror...[] So it should be in ski lessons.
Although in skiing maybe it's
Plan, look, execute.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
It is not a question of slowing to a crawl, but you should be aware enough to consider the potential for muppetry and the concomitant escape route / evasion option, in every situation. And that applies juts as much when you are driving a 2 ton killing machine or on the pistes.
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Many moons ago my driving instructor drilled it into me that 'every other road user is a potential lunatic who might kill you. Keep that in mind and you'll be fine.' In the 20 something years since then I've seen some pretty insane driving but have never come close to driving into someone due to it. I only started skiing in 2012 but in my circa 170 days since then I've not come close to skiing into anyone else either despite seeing some utterly crazy moves by those downhill of me. Assume everyone else doesn't give a stuff about their own self preservation and you'll probably not go far wrong.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| James the Last wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes - no need to be tetchy. My comment wasn't aimed at anybody. Guilty conscience? |
No not at all, though no doubt the downhill skier has right of way period brigade would have found some grounds to claim it was my fault/lack of skill regardless of the fact that I had been the downhill skier until she passed then stopped.
I do wonder whether people who don't regularly come across stupid behaviour either a) don't do much skiing or b) are themselves skiing along in a little bubble where they aren't really paying attention to others. |
Every time I start to think this is a civilised and reasonable discourse I come across something pejorative like this. Why is it not possible that we all have a good point? And why is it not possible, as I have said before, that all rules always apply and are not contradictory. It is not a system designed to apportion blame but rather one designed to minimise accidents. Thus, the uphill skier is always responsible for skiing in a manner that avoids collision with downhill skiers. And those joining the piste are always responsible for doing so in a manner that does not get in anyone's way. Neither can excuse a collision on the basis that the other one also broke a rule. Why is that so hard to accept?
For the record:
1. I ski 30+ days a season (and am old enough that it stacks up to a scary amount of total days skied)
2. I am good enough that I am able to ski and look around me at the same time (including to the side and uphill) so am aware of what is going on around me. This is often the problem that skiers are ONLY looking straight in front, sometimes even at their skis.
3. I have never, ever, come close to colliding with anyone (but have once been crashed into, in a couloir at speed from above). I have seen and experienced many near misses, in my view they could all have been avoided with the right level of skill, awareness and responsibility/consideration for others. I have heard a few stories here of freak accidents that sound like they really were impossible to avoid, but they are very rare and I have certainly never seen anything myself that falls into that category.
I do not assume that you have either less experience or skill than I have simply because I disagree with your perspective. I have not met you or seen you skiing so how could I possible know? And neither could you possibly know that for anyone else. I do assume however, based on your posts, that you come into contact/near contact with other slope users much more often than I do (i.e. several times versus zero) so respectfully suggest that you at least consider adjusting the manner in which you ski to reduce that incidence and the subsequent risk of injury to yourself and others. I certainly do not think I have all the answers and my way may not be the best, but there are plenty of other very sensible and helpful suggestions from others that you might also consider.
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