 Poster: A snowHead
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Very recently I bought a pair of Full Tilt Classic boots second hand from SAH (thanks Steve!) who was selling them here.
similar to these
https://www.freezeproshop.com/full-tilt-classic-ski-boots/colour:59788/shoe-size:59782?country=GB¤cy=GBP&utm_source=GoogleShopping&gclid=CMejsb2B29ECFYaVGwodt9gMHg
It seemed a very cheap way of satisfying my curiosity - these boots are almost identical to the old Raichle Flexon Comp boots from the 80s and 90s (shells from the same Raichle moulds albeit with intuition wrap liners rather than tongue liners). The first ski boots I ever owned were Flexons. When I worked my ski season in 1993/4 we were given hire equipment FOC but it was awful. I had little money and I saw some last years model Flexons in a shop 50% off. Tried them on. They seemed to fit - no moulding, stretching or modifications. Skied very happy on them until they reached the end of their lives. I've had 6 pairs of different boots since then - none seemed to have been as natural a fit. Was this just rose-tinted glasses? Surely 25 years of technological progress makes the 80s design totally outclassed?
Short answer - no. Skied them for two days at the weekend and they were bloody great - comfortable, smooth progressive flex, rock solid heel hold and very lightweight compared to modern overlap/4 clip boots despite all those fancy new materials.
Obviously a crucial point is that the last is just good for my foot shape and won't be for others - the right boot is the one that fits you. Flexons were loved by people who they fitted but not by lots who they didnt.
But the more that I look at them the more I think that the 3 piece design (key feature being that the flex is provided by a separate, hard, engineered tongue rather than the overlap of conventional boots, secondary feature being the diagonal second buckle that serves to pull your heel down and back into the heel pocket) is just fundamentally superior and not specific to the Raichle last (Full Tilt have added two different lasts with the same design concept that should suit a wider range of foot shapes). I'm an engineer by education (not by profession) and to my mind the lightness of the 3 piece design is quite telling - it shows that it achieves the same outcomes much more efficiently which is a mark of good design.
Now given that 3 piece designs have always been niche (beyond Full Tilt they are used in some touring boots and by dalbello) there must be some significant disadvantages that offset the good points but googling the subject hasn't revealed much. Anyone know?
Raichle never really made race boots. The flexons were popular with freeskiers and bump skiers, hardly any proracers. But I don't think there is any reason why a 3 piece design could not work there - flexons and Full Tilts both have a free moving rear cuff and lots of race boots are essentially fused at the back which makes them stiffer but I think you could design a 3 piece with a fused rear spine.
I think the rigid tongue offers less widthwise adjustment over the forefoot which means that it is even more crucial than normal that the last is right for your foot. I suspect his has been a factor - means you need more lasts/boots to cover the full range of foot shapes which I guess is a drawback given it implies higher stock levels etc and more cost?
But otherwise I'm struggling.
I'd be fascinated if anyone knows the answer.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I had some Flexons back in the 80's loved them. My lad is currently skiing on some Full Tilt B&E's and his GF on some Dalbello's which are similar. They have interchangeable tongues to increase stiffness. Both get on with them very well. I'd certainly consider them for a replacement for my current boots.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Something I've always been curious about too, though I've never got around to trying a pair to see.
I've *read* that they're not as stiff and responsive laterally.
However I'm pretty sure Bode Miller was planning to use Full Tilts for his racing comeback but Head (fairly, I think) scuppered his plans.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I think it's just a fashion thing. I don't see that they are any less stiff laterally. They have a high cuff and the calf-piece is substantial. Could be that folks aren't used to the progressive flex and just think they're 'soft'.
I must have at least ten pairs of Flexons kicking about.
A lot of history here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raichle_Flexon
Roxa have a number of Flexon-derived boots including ones with Tech inserts - I think they manufacture (or manufactured) the boots for Full Tilt.
http://www.roxa.com/products/ski-boots/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@altis, not convinced about the early Wiki comments, don't chime with my vague recollections, but I was just a nipper...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Good question. Random ideas:- Maybe it costs more to make these - the more traditional approach has fewer bits, perhaps?
- I was one of the few people who hated/ refused to use rear-entry... from memory I think they were just hard to adjust to my feet. Does the centre panel perhaps suffer from the same thing?
But presumably skiers here know why they don't use them better than I do. I have used Raichle-derived snowboard race boots - they're traditional overlap boots, so they don't share the key features of these boots.
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There is only one downside, that's lateral stiffness compared to an over lap boot. The design of the boot, with an "open throat" means the boot will buckle laterally when using larger skis on a hard surface. It will too on narrower skis but be less noticeable. The lack of lateral precision is why they are so successful at Freestyle and bump skiing, allowing small edge mistakes to be absorbed and not directly changing the direction of the skis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The design of the boot, with an "open throat" means the boot will buckle laterally when using larger skis on a hard surface.
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Yes I can imagine that there would be a greater tendency for that - makes sense.
Given how light the boots are, you'd have though there would be plenty of scope to build up the sides of the "clog" to mitigate this further while still coming in lighter than overlap boots. But I suspect the various owners have felt that they are better focusing on the freeskiing market where the design is more optimal.
What does surprise me is that Full Tilt don't offer a boot with tech inserts... They'd definitely sell me a pair.
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I've a pair of Scarpa Maeastrale. I guess they're a three piece too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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yep - quite a lot of scarpa touring boots are. Dynafits too. I had some scarpa denalis that were - last didn't suit me quite as well as full tilts/raichles.
Guess it is the weight advantage that drives the 3 piece design choice for touring boots.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have Dalbello Kyra 85's which have the 3 piece cabrio design and I absolutely adore them. They are three clip with a power strap. Easy to put on and take off, very very comfortable and warm and plenty of control to blast down anything I want to. I have yet to experience any down side.
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