 Poster: A snowHead
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@dredgey,
Please post a live blow by blow trip report of your journey on here.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Will definitely let everyone know how it goes! We're driving through the night (to add to the 'adventure') so I hope to drive/sleep/drive... judging by the general opinion, this might be wishful thinking!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@zikomo, care to explained what it is you've looked up that is relevant?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@dredgey, The oak barrel is, I think, the only pub there, all the others being more as normally found in France, restaurants/cafés of varying status. Think they show sports there but I've not used it much as we've generally been there with young children and other families likewise, so our balance of non ski time just hasn't taken us in there much.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ski3, ah ok, thank you for your reply.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@zikomo the OP says they have the three peaks, snow flake symbol so why do you say they are not proper 'winter' tyres?
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I'm not sure I would call myself an 'expert', but I have experience.
We've taken our Landcruiser skiing plenty of times. Here's what I would recommend.
- get chains. Just because you're in a 4x4 you aren't exempt from the rule about chains
- ignore diff-lock. We've only used ours on wet farm fields in Wales, never needed it on roads in The Alps
- if you have a button called '2nd start' it can be useful if you're on an icy road. The Landrover might have something similar, but basically it starts an automatic in 2nd gear, which gives a smoother delivery of power to the wheels, and reduces the wheel spinning.
- we only used lowrange once: going uphill on slush with 8 in the car.
- remember.. 4wheel drive won't help a 2tonne vehicle that is sliding sideways! Slow down on ice/snow!
- downhill assist (if you have it) can get you down an uncleared road safely, but only if you trust it 100%
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@dredgey,
@AnnabelC and I have said, don't forget that you might still need chains. Personally, I'd take some rather than risk being turned back by the police or ending up in a ravine.
If you do fit chains, then read the Defender manual carefully. I am 99% sure you should NOT fit them to the front wheels, only the rear, and you must also lock the diff.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@dredgey, I found it fine but long! I didn't make the engine scream the whole way (as I have the Td5, it's a 5 not a 6 speed box). Averaged 70 and plenty of coffee (diesel) stops!
I should say that I have spent a lot of time driving that car all over France & Switzerland, from the UK, so always know what I'm in for. I'm not sure the modern ones are as unreliable as everyone makes out. It's more that not everything on them (doors, windows, wipers, anything electrical) will work all the time. But that doesn't stop the car going...and it will go through almost anything!
It was far better than the longest journey I've done, which involved driving a 7.5tonne lorry on personal business from London tp Montpellier, via Le Mans. Speed limited to 56 the whole way! 2 days down, 2 days rest, 2 days back!
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@dredgey,
2. The tyres you have are great. I have no idea what @Dashed, means by saying they aren't snow tyres. Apart from being studded how could they be more 'snowy'.
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It's pretty simple! Winter rated tyres aren't necessarily the same as snow tyres. They could be more "snowy" by being specifically designed for snow / ice use!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@foxtrotzulu, that's a good point, that road up to Les Esserts is marked as chains mandatory about 100mtrs after leaving the lower village of Morillon to start the climb.
As I've posted above, the top third of it is the most difficult part IF it's snowing while you drive it. It's the section where you'll see anything unprepared getting stuck and either fitting chains or part blocking the road.
Being properly prepared will help you keep going and avoid them. You may have to wait at some point though if you can't get through safely.
As above, it's not that much of a problem until it gets snow (and we always travel with the hope of seeing more snow, don't we?) but just at that area, the gradient, road crown, camber and bends you have to take slowly starts to offer a more serious aspect.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It will be fine Defenders are better than they used to be, but:
The heater in pre Puma Defenders is rubbish, so wear extra clothes, easy enough, you are going skiing. Always have a dry cloth or kitchen roll to hand to clear the glass.
They are noisy and better driven at 4/5th than all out. The seats are not great, take something to sit on.
You are unlikely to need to engage low range or the dif, stick it in second and let tick over take you up pretty much anything. The tank is pretty big, so if you do 60 mph should get nearly 400 miles from a tank, you will need to stop long before that.
I would get snow socks personally, just make sure they are the approved ones not the generic chinese ones.
Good luck, makes for an adventure.
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@Dashed,
| Quote: |
It's pretty simple! Winter rated tyres aren't necessarily the same as snow tyres. They could be more "snowy" by being specifically designed for snow / ice use!!
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That still doesn't mean anything.
AFAIK there are, sort of, three types of tyre for winter use:
1. M+S. Mud and snow tyres are definitely more mud than snow. They grip in deep snow, but are usually a hardish compound (so they don't get damaged too easily when off-roading) and that makes them pretty rubbish on cold, hard surfaces. They are clasified as M+S because they have a big, chunky tread. This is not the same at all as being winter rated and maybe this is what you are confusing with #2 below?
2. 3PMS (Three peak mountain snowflake symbol). These are a softer compound that performs better under 7 degrees. They will also have 'sipes' in the tread - narrow slits that will trap the snow. They are probably not off-road tyres as the combination of M+S and 3PMS is quite hard to find. The new Grabber AT2 which, is what the OP has, is one of the very few (only?) tyres to do this as far as I know.
3. Spiked tyres. I know nothing about these and they wouldn't be much use for the OP as he couldn't drive them for the first few hundred miles of the journey.
So, what 'snow tyres' are you talking about? Can you provide a link.
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You know it makes sense.
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Having just come back from Samoens, I'd add that it's a good idea to ensure your engine oil is suitable for low temperatures, that your battery is up to scratch and that you've got some low temp diesel additive!
It got down to -17C for us, and Taninges just down the road was -22C!
The engine management light on our Subaru stayed on for the whole week due to sticky diesel - though we fared better than many who were completely stuck! We were too busy enjoying the perfect snow to get additive until 2 days before we went home, added it when filling up and the light went off 20 minutes later.
Also, our winter tyres weren't enough for the steep icy and ungritted road to our chalet; we slid down backwards until I managed to hand-brake turn us in the right direction and stop us in a snow bank. So it was chains until the road was gritted 2 days later...
As for Landies and M&S tyres; I live in the wilds of Shropshire where we get quite a lot of snow due to being at over 1000'. Our TD200 had no problem going up or down the steep hill behind us, even through drifts of bumper (i.e. girder!) height. However, it turned into a toboggan on a 1:3 section that was sheet ice - only chains or studs would have helped there.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As said plenty of times above, with 3PMS tyres and the traction control on the landy, you'll not need difflock if you're on the road.
foxtrotzulu covers the tyre thing pretty well.
You'll need chains, probably just so plod don't stop you going up the hill because you haven't got them. but if you do use them I would go for putting them all four wheels ... this way you have steering and balanced braking as well as drive ... slightly more expense and faff .. but makes a big difference.
I've not traveled any distance in a modern defender but we've seen quite a few heading to/from the alps as we've done our trips.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
good idea to ensure your engine oil is suitable for low temperatures, that your battery is up to scratch and that you've got some low temp diesel additive!
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If you fill up locally e.g. Alberville, then it will already have the additives included.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@foxtrotzulu - you're over simplifying things, particularly under your category 2 - that's a very broad category! Not all snowflake tyres are designed for the same use. They vary from all season stuff that achieves the rating to more winter / snow / ice specific tyres that also achieve (and probably far surpass) the rating. The snowflake only shows the tyre meets a minimum requirement (10% better traction in hard packed snow versus a standard tyre).
The AT2's lack the multiple sipes of more winter focused tyres, but that would be inappropriate for a tyre designed for all terrain use (as they'd get torn up pretty quickly during rough and rocky offroad use). However, their performance is at least 10% better than a standard tyre in the snow, so they can have a snowflake! Doesn't mean they are designed specifically with winter in mind.
Anyway, OP will have no problems getting around the alps in a defender on AT2 tyres without having to resort to diff lock. My original point was simply not to think those tyres make you invincible in snowy conditions simply because they've got a snowflake 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@Dashed,
| Quote: |
It's pretty simple! Winter rated tyres aren't necessarily the same as snow tyres. They could be more "snowy" by being specifically designed for snow / ice use!!
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That still doesn't mean anything.
AFAIK there are, sort of, three types of tyre for winter use:
1. M+S. Mud and snow tyres are definitely more mud than snow. They grip in deep snow, but are usually a hardish compound (so they don't get damaged too easily when off-roading) and that makes them pretty rubbish on cold, hard surfaces. They are clasified as M+S because they have a big, chunky tread. This is not the same at all as being winter rated and maybe this is what you are confusing with #2 below?
2. 3PMS (Three peak mountain snowflake symbol). These are a softer compound that performs better under 7 degrees. They will also have 'sipes' in the tread - narrow slits that will trap the snow. They are probably not off-road tyres as the combination of M+S and 3PMS is quite hard to find. The new Grabber AT2 which, is what the OP has, is one of the very few (only?) tyres to do this as far as I know.
3. Spiked tyres. I know nothing about these and they wouldn't be much use for the OP as he couldn't drive them for the first few hundred miles of the journey.
So, what 'snow tyres' are you talking about? Can you provide a link. |
There are 4 types of tyres available from Some but not all manufacturers:
1. Summer designed for use in warm dry(ish) conditions
2. All season designed for use in mild places where there is some cold weather and a few flurries of snow can be expected
3. All weather designed for use in colder climates where some driving in snow slush and ice can be expected. These carry the snowflake symbol and should be considered legal as "winter tyres". They often have the capability to have studs installed. Their performance is less good than all season or summer tyres in very warm conditions and not as good as winters in extreme cold conditions. The Grabber AT2 in some sizes and the Goodyear Weather Control range fit in here.
4. Winter designed for use in temperatures below 7C and work well in deep snow and extreme cold. Always carry the snowflake symbol and often can have studs added. Handling is compromised in warm conditions and not intended for all year round usage.
It's not clear to me where the crossover between All weather and winters is for use in the mountains on an SUV.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Quote: |
good idea to ensure your engine oil is suitable for low temperatures, that your battery is up to scratch and that you've got some low temp diesel additive!
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If you fill up locally e.g. Alberville, then it will already have the additives included. |
I was advised by both a local mechanic and a ski instructor that it may have trouble below -15C, possibly -12C if they've skimped on additives...
Not only that, but engine oil may thicken too much if it's not rated that low!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Leonard Smalls wrote: |
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Quote: |
good idea to ensure your engine oil is suitable for low temperatures, that your battery is up to scratch and that you've got some low temp diesel additive!
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If you fill up locally e.g. Alberville, then it will already have the additives included. |
I was advised by both a local mechanic and a ski instructor that it may have trouble below -15C, possibly -12C if they've skimped on additives...
Not only that, but engine oil may thicken too much if it's not rated that low! |
Fair point, although getting your engine oil changed just for one trip is a bit pricy
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Honestly, how much will it be parked outside with a cold engine? If overnight, take all precautions! But if in an underground garage overnight, and started twice during the week to pop out to a restaurant, there would be less concerns.
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Mine was outside...
And luckily I had to do an oil and filter change just before leaving anyway so I used a 5W-30 synthetic rated for cold cranking down to -30C. A 10 or 15W, especially if it had been in the engine for a while, might not have been viscous enough.
It still took 5 or more plug-warms to get it to fire - though that was a cold diesel problem.
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| Whitty wrote: |
| Even though I'm a bit of landrover fan I'd have to say,rather you than me! Make sure he has good breakdown cover. I know they have a reputation for being indestructible but it's far from true! Not to mention fuel consumption, comfort, road noise etc. They don't crash well either, well to put a finer point on it. The occupants don't! On a positive note, they are excellent for off road and snow. I always think of them as a work tool not a car. |
^THIS!!
Having owned a Defender, I would rather eat my own eyes than drive one down to the Alps. Driving 25 miles in one as about my limit.
Even if you can put up with the slow speed, the noise, the dire mpg, the crap stereo and the likelihood of breaking down, then the uncomfortable seats will make a one hour check-in queue at Easyjet seem like Nirvana in comparison.
Seriously, don't do it. Take a car, not a farm vehicle.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I would have killed for an air cushion after 23 hours on that back seat.
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I live in the Alps and I drive a 2006 Defender Td5 Station Wagon.
With summer tyres on, they are very, very scary. Don't do it.
With winter tyres on, uphill, they are stunningly good. Absolutely jaw dropping. I have pulled a minibus sideways uphill on sheet ice with my Landy without using chains, etc.
Downhill, they can get a bit interesting. They are heavy and lacking in a lot of modern features such as ABS and traction control. Things can go very wrong, very quickly. If you start to slide and keep the brakes on for just a moment too long, you're likely to stall the engine, meaning no power steering, no hydraulic brakes - and you're still sliding. Not fun. I have put mine in a snowdrift deliberately more than once. My approach these days, when I judge the road conditions to be very bad, is to engage the low ratio box and the diff lock. This means that, if necessary, you can put it in low 1st gear, take your feet off the pedals and crawl down the mountain at 5kph very safely. You can always work it up to 2nd/3rd on long straights, then gradually bring it back down to 1st for the hairpins. This is also what's recommended in the Landy user manual. If the road is so slippy that you need to do this, then having the diff lock engaged is not an issue. Also, as mentioned by someone already, the Landy diff-lock only locks the central diff, so the left/right wheels can still be doing different speeds round corners.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@stevomcd, as you've said there, Ive understood that the diff lock deployment is usually a pre-emptive decision in this type of vehicle. Also as you point out there is not a real downside to locking the centre diff in regard to the original question, IF there is snow on the road up to Morillon.
Ive been up to Ste Foy last two seasons and the road up there is all fairly open hairpins with consistent gradient, the last third of the Morillon climb has relatively sever camber changes on approx six hairpins, enough to effectively cross axle most vehicles and get an inside wheel relatively lightly loaded. In a normal car on some of them the sill can touch the road, it's quite extreme.
As a point of reference to the original question, would you consider the diff lock a reasonable precaution for that road going up if it's snow covered?
I think you may have more relative experience in that environment than some of the others on here that say it's not required.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Orange200 wrote: |
| stevomcd wrote: |
| My approach these days, when I judge the road conditions to be very bad, is to engage the low ratio box and the diff lock. This means that, if necessary, you can put it in low 1st gear, take your feet off the pedals and crawl down the mountain at 5kph very safely. |
Yup, this is Hill Descent Control for when you don't have a fancy button  Remember, feet off BOTH pedals - or, as my instructor said, "wrap your legs around your neck" |
This is really useful to info! Sounds like getting up will be fine even in spite of heavy snow conditions. Getting down in heavy snow/ice to be treated with extra care... but then I would in any car anyway.
In spite of the general consensus, I'm kind of looking forward the the drive! We have x2 enormous roof boxes to allow as much space for passengers as possible, but comfort will be what it will be (I'm in the front so who cares anyway!). Tyres (oops, not the dreaded tyre discussion) sound like they will be up for the job if roads get hectic but I have some chains if it comes to the worst. Reliability and fuel costs?... Well who knows but our alternative cars don't offer much of a better situation and we have two breakdown policies between us.
I suspect like every driving ski holiday I've done, it'll be a load of preparation only to greeting by dry tarmac!
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You know it makes sense.
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@ski3, I wouldn't bother with the diff lock going uphill in any circumstances. In the unlikely event that it starts spinning, you can then engage the diff-lock.
Also (and not related), low-ratio box is pointless uphill - you want to stay in as high a gear as possible anyway.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| dredgey wrote: |
In spite of the general consensus, I'm kind of looking forward the the drive! |
When you get there, I want to see if you still look forward to the drive back 
Good luck with it all!
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Poster: A snowHead
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We have lived here for 12 years and our 1987 ex-mod 110 has been a joy to own.
Low ratio - good for traffic jams, but otherwise have not really used it.
Normally we only use the centre diff when climbing in wet slippy snow as the other landy owner have said.
Also once when I was sliding backwards down a steep gravelled section of the Crot piste in Avoriaz, I decided to deploy it before trying again. ( Don't ask why I chose to drive up the piste when there is a perfectly good road )
We have Cooper Discoverer AT tyres which are not full bore snow tyres, but are just dandy.
I would add that we have made long road trips (2200 KM) it is noisy and slow, but comfortable and the engine noise drowns out the kids
This video was 3 weeks ago.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ulNFZN7Wc0UDJhbHU2YTNmaFU/view?usp=sharing
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just to agree as some have stated above:
1. Dont touch the diff lock unless you are stuck. If you use it on surfaces where there is traction (tarmac) for any distance it will seize the transmission = very expensive repair. If you are somewhere where your wheels are tending to spin and you aren't going anywhere, consider locking the diff. Once you get out of the area disengage the diff lock. You might need to reverse a bit/drive forwards a bit/reverse a bit and shoogle the steering wheel right and left to actually get the diff lock to disengage
2. It's permanent 4wd because its a LR Defender.
3. Don't put it in low ratio - it won't help for snow/ice. It's only for going really slow/up really steep hills/going really slow down really steep hills. The only place you might consider low ratio is if you are going down a steep icy road and are having difficulty staying in control, in which case low ratio, first gear, and gentle use of brakes is your best bet. You are very unlikely to experience that however.
Whilst it would be immeasurably better with winter tyres you will find that it is very capable even just with regular all terrain tyres such as are usually fitted to defenders. I've yet to experience snow/ice that I couldn't deal with in mine with common/garden AT tyres, and that includes one experience towing/dragging an idiot uphill across a frozen snowy car park, while he had his car in gear!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@monkey,
| Quote: |
Whilst it would be immeasurably better with winter tyres
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He does have genuine winter tyres. Not just M+S, but 3PMS/snowflake symbol.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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With 3 open diffs they are only 4wheel drive while having relatively equal traction on all 4 tires. In extreme circumstances it will get to 1 wheel drive, which may at some point prevent the original poster in a fully laden vehicle with full compliment of passengers from travelling of the gradient of the road to their destination in conditions of snow coverage. I've always stated a pre condition of IF there is snow on the road.
If there is snow on the road, you won't create a conflict within the transmission so that's not a risk in the scenario I've given. I assume people are offering advice do have prior knowledge of the road up to Morillon Les Esserts? Those hairpins at the top have the gradient and camber change to fairly effectively cross axle the suspension to a significant degree, which is exactly what would help you loose traction.
Deploying the diff lock while rolling along, no slip and steering straight is I agree fairly simple. But that interface is not a clutched operation, instead relying on low speed across the centre diff and low torque at the time. If the vehicle comes to a halt and gets stuck and you have to arrest the vehicle with the hand brake, that is also facilitated through the transmission. If you deploy the diff lock with one wheel spinning, you'll find out how bad that is for the transmission. All serious advice that combines fairly serious gradient with high potential for loss of traction would be to prepare by locking the centre diff to best avoid the vehicle coming to a halt and let the driver concentrate on just driving.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Diff lock should really only be engaged while stationary. There is something in the Landrover manual along the lines of "It is *possible*, with good timing, to engage the diff lock while moving at slow speed" but I really wouldn't recommend it unless you are highly experienced. It should be deployed pre-emptively.
I don't know the Morillon road personally, but bear in mind that a Defender has about 10x the suspension travel of most vehicles and can therefore cope with ridiculous changes in camber, etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think it's worth discussion as the original poster seemed to suggest that they're not that versed in these vehicles. With that in mind, what Im trying to contribute is that if there is risk of coming to a halt in that sector then they'd be exposed to a situation which they'd rather avoid.
I accept that it's a fairly low chance but do believe it's possible there with snow. I'd rather give a catch all path of planning that should avoid that situation. Also I recognise that someone like you is alot more practiced in using their own vehicle in this environment.
These vehicles are in someways fairly unique in giving the capability to cope with a lot of situations but that by its very nature extends often quite far into more risky areas before someone not experienced is exposed to decision making that could certainly be outside their field of experience. I think given that situation there's not really a downside to pre selecting the centre diff lock, if snow is on that gradient.
The scenario if you come to a halt in those circumstances is not easy. Presuming you've got slip on one wheel you'd probably have to apply the parking brake. Because this operates on the transmission it will by held under torque loading, and may prevent you from getting the diff lock to engage, the option then (if you can't move forward) would be to either hold it on the foot brake with your other foot on the clutch, or let it roll backwards to get the lock mechanism to align internally. For the uninitiated this is not easy and you start to run out of feet. It's certainly not a nice decesion to go back down a failed climb in anything, this is what I'm trying to avoid.
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Defender:
Awful handling
Noisy
Guzzling - you'll be able to watch the gauge drop in real time if you get your toe down
Poor braking
Terrible driving position if over 5ft 6in
Uncomfortable
Unreliable
On the plus side there is zero chance of anyone falling asleep at the wheel
Good luck
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@Frosty the Snowman, couldn't find the thread but I have vague memories of someone else attempting this a few years ago, and I think the conclusion was 'never again'.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
On the plus side there is zero chance of anyone falling asleep at the wheel
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It's the only vehicle I've driven down a motorway at 69mph (it could only do 70 downhill) and it made not a jot of difference to sound levels whether you had the windows open or closed.
| Hells Bells wrote: |
| @Frosty the Snowman, couldn't find the thread but I have vague memories of someone else attempting this a few years ago, and I think the conclusion was 'never again'. |
Possibly me, we had a 110 drove it out there and back once with 11 months between crossings and even that was too close!
Mind you for the year we had it out there is was a superb vehicle, great in the snow during the season and then in the summer great for doing uplift days!
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FAQ
